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The Polish Blame Culture!


Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Apr 2010 #121
For sure, which is all the more reason to be aware of the impending threat and pull loans from all available sources. Still, the problem was that those super rich institutions that could have supplied the capital had a vested interest in not supplying it as they profit from war. Intergovernmental loans were the only realistic way but it is mere conjecture as to whether they would have been provided to the tune of what Poland needed.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #122
As a counterfactual:

They could have had better relations with the Czechs whose army was quite sizable as well I believe, and done everything they could to back the Czechs against German demands and attempt at persuading the British and French that they were willing to fight over Czech sovereignty. That way the French would feel more inclined to honour their agreement and fight as well, thus winning the support of the British. That way Hitler's field of

Manoeuvre would have been very constrained indeed, if not in fact impossible. However there was just to much disagreement between the two.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Apr 2010 #123
Did they not have a major run-in with the Czechs in 1938? It would have split the then Czechoslovakia as Slovakia had many Nazis in their ranks. Also, the Czech Republic was still small fry compared to the Nazi war machine. They would've been trampled on and crushed in an instant. The fact is that it would've taken nothing short of a miracle to get the French onboard and active. Czech sovereignty was not enough of a concern for them.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Apr 2010 #124
I did mean rearming by taking out a major loan or going to last resort measures

Thats just newspeak Sean, banks were controlled by Jews who were often pro-communist and anti-Polish and besides who was going to give Poland that loan? America was supporting Nazis, UK and France simply didnt care, so where was that loan going to come from, the moon?

Also what last resort measures?

The Battle of Britain was the prime example of where we had inferior numbers (yet we still won, downing on a ratio of 2:1). The Luftwaffe met their match!

You had the channel which limited the range of german fighters, you had the superior aero-industry and you had superior numbers for half the battle.

America had two bombs they did not have a stock pile, and the bombs were going to Japan.

No one knew that, USA could tell Stalin to do a backflip and he'd do it, America itself did everything to give an impression that it has a stockpile.

Poland was a bargaining chip for the Soviets help against Japan,

You reaaaaally need to learn your history before posting bullsh*t.

The sad fact is USA didnt give a sh*t about Poland and was quite strongly anti-polish given the attitudes of the american jewry, the infamous "polack jokes" were born in that period, for example it was USA that gave away the polish city of Lwów to Russia.

They could have had better relations with the Czechs whose army was quite sizable as well I believe

No they could not, the Czechs only expressed interest in better relations after the Germans annexed their industry, by then they were a worthless ally with a weak army.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #125
Did they not have a major run-in with the Czechs in 1938? It would have split the then Czechoslovakia as Slovakia had many Nazis in their ranks. Also, the Czech Republic was still small fry compared to the Nazi war machine. They would've been trampled on and crushed in an instant. The fact is that it would've taken nothing short of a miracle to get the French onboard and active. Czech sovereignty was not enough of a concern for them.

Indeed they did, quite a complicated history between the two. Lot of personality clashes between statesmen as well. I actually think that Czechoslovakia, being a mountainous region, could hold on to the passes for quite awhile, their army was not comparable to the German army of course, but quite formidable nonetheless. The French would struggle to desist from interfering, seeing Czech resistance in the south and Polish attack in the east they could quite plausibly join in and the Brits would naturally follow.

The Slovaks were opportunists they would have desisted until the Germans got the upper hand. Presented with such a scenario I think Hitler would definitely hesitate, there were people within his army at the time who were planning to assassinate him should Germany commence war with Czechoslovakia, but the conference prevented that from happening.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Apr 2010 #126
Fortify Poland's borders to the hilt and you could have saved many Jewish lives. Then again, those bankers care little for their kin and more for money so you have a point. We can't be naive in this day and age. America is famous for financing both sides (e.g Iran-Iraq War) so it could have lent you that capital. Yes, there were stories of Prescott Bush funding the Nazis but America was still against the Nazis at the end of the day. What last resort measures? Military machinery and muscle for a lifetime's supply of cabbage and vodka ;) ;) ;)

We had the superior radar facilities, extending their capabilities and baffling the Germans. Superior numbers? That's news to me. We capitalised on Goering's blunder of bunching their planes together, making them an easy target from above. We also got a lucky break when they were delayed by an hour, giving us enough time to form and get the confidence up (battle of 15th of Sep 1940, I think).

As for stockpiles, who knows what really goes on at Fort Detrick, Maryland? ;) ;)
Harry
27 Apr 2010 #127
It's trite to say that Poland would not be able to blame the Poms if only HMG had fulfilled its obligations under clause 5 of the contract with Poland (how do you blame a contracting party for fulfilling its obligations?), but according to some Poms on this forum pointing that out is wrong, justified on the basis that it was so long ago, what could we have done, don't blame us and so on.

Article 5 actually says "Without prejudice to the foregoing undertakings of the Contracting Parties to give each other mutual support and assistance immediately on the outbreak of hostilities, they will exchange complete and speedy information concerning any development which might threaten their independence and, in particular, concerning any development which threatened to call the said undertakings into operation. " Would you care to elaborate on how Britain failed to fulfill its obligations under that clause? Oh, and do you think you could do it without using racist slurs?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Apr 2010 #128
Fortify Poland's borders to the hilt and you could have saved many Jewish lives.

First of all Jews were interested in destroying Poland, second of all fortifying the entire border would cost more than Germany and France made together in 3 years.

America was still against the Nazis at the end of the day

Only when its interests in Europe were threatened, it was very pro-nazi and anti-Polish early on, later it simply became anti-nazi and anti-Polish.

Military machinery

Money for which would come from where?

We had the superior radar facilities, extending their capabilities and baffling the Germans.

True.

Superior numbers? That's news to me.

By second half of BoB UK was producing three times the fighters Luftwaffe did and trained 3 pilots for every 2 German pilots.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Apr 2010 #129
Interested in destroying Poland? Then they got their comeuppance when the Nazis steamrolled in and set up their concentration camps. They let poor, innocent people die by not releasing their vast wads of cash to do something. Well, let your borders go and there is only one result.

America was fairly neutral on Poland. What reasons did they have to be against Poland?

I told you, from America. There were plenty with the desire to plunge Poland into national debt, just to take care of their security. Still, it would have been delaying the inevitable as Germany could not be contained with their pace.

We still only really had Hurricanes and Spitfires and I don't think your numbers are accurate. However, I have no source at hand with which to dispute it. It just wasn't mentioned in any documentaries I watched.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Apr 2010 #130
Interested in destroying Poland?

American jewry i should add, amusing thing is that those same jews disliked not to say hated the polish jews.

America was fairly neutral on Poland. What reasons did they have to be against Poland?

American society was very negative against Poland, their newspapers described Poles as blundering idiots or nazi allies, the reasons were that a great deal of american jews were pro-communist and Poland was sorta leading the fight on that field, especially since 1920 when it stopped communism under Warsaw.

We still only really had Hurricanes and Spitfires and I don't think your numbers are accurate

Hurricanes were equal and Spitfires superior to BF-109, check them yourself there's a fockton of materials about BoB in british.

It just wasn't mentioned in any documentaries I watched

If we're talking about discovery or CNN documentaries than they're absolutely historically worthless, sometimes they contain misconceptions, sometimes outright lies, either way they're as close to historical truth as say Hollywoods "Troy".

ven at that Spitfires didn't really come into play until the last year of the war.

Thats a joke right? I'm going to give you a tip, the Spitfire was produced since 1938, BoB was in 1940.
guzzler 1 | 88
27 Apr 2010 #131
You reaaaaally need to learn your history before posting bullsh*t.

Its not my history I'm an Irishman, I was stating what my polish mates said to me back in 1960. If you know better then them who actually fought in the war, well good on you but I would rather take their opinion and not read about it.. You are a bully if you spoke to me like that across a table you would account for it one way or the other. You seem to get all your information second hand. I was a soldier in Vietnam in 1968 with the Australians during the Tet not called up I volunteered. And did two tours I have never read any accounts or book that came anywhere near the truth about Vietnam. Except an odd one from guys who had been there, and had the ability to write a book, The Poles I knew were from the 2nd Carpathian Rifle Brigade, They never spoke much about the war until I came back to London from Vietnam. Because they knew I would then understand what the hill at Monte Cassino had cost them and the betrayal they felt. I don't know anything about you, maybe you have been in action but from your posts I don't get the feeling you have.The last of my mates died in the early nineties his name was Stephan he was my good friend. We met once a week for a drink up to the time he died. At his funeral his coffin was covered by the Polish flag, I still miss him, he and my other Polish friends are the reason I logged into this site.

PS. Yes you are right the Yanks did not care about Poland I thought I was making that point.
Regarding the Jews it was a Zionist family which happened to be Jewish, not the Jews who
financed the two wars, the same family who have owned the bank of England for nearly
two hundred years. And also own the Central Bank of America the ones who pull all the
strings. The reason they stopped funding Hitler was because he took control of printing
money in Germany away from them and moved into the bartering system. Its always
been about money that's the power follow the money trail and things start to make
sense.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 Apr 2010 #132
Its not my history I'm an Irishman, I was stating what my polish mates said to me back in 1960.

Soviets attacked out of their own initiative, the sad truth was Poland was not a bargaining chip, Germany was. Poland was given away by USA without a second thought.

seem to get all your information second hand.

True,history books are usually second hand information, can't say i was present in Yalta myself.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
28 Apr 2010 #133
What was written in the official memoirs of Churchill and Roosevelt on this point?

I haven't seen these memoirs. Can you give a link to them plz?

Also, did Tehran and Yalta provide sound justifications?

I don't really understand what you mean here. Suffice to say, I've alluded to a 'justification' in my previous posts, that being appeasement of Stalin and amicable relations being secured at Poland's expense.

What was the Polish reaction, didn't they fight their corner?

Again, I don't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

HMG failed to provide to Poland "complete and speedy information concerning any development which might threaten their independence". Stalin's postulation on the Polish border and its political makeup post WW2 was a development which might have (and did) threaten Poland's independence. Failure to pass this info to Poland was a prima facie breach.

A few simple words would have discharged the obligation. It may not have altered the outcome, but that doesn't matter. Formal, lawful and properly executed agreements aside, morality, justice and honour demand that you tell a friend and ally that your other 'friend and ally' has designs on you that could prejudice your existence.

The anecdotal exchange at the bottom of p.442 of Rising '44 says it better than any words I can muster.

The other anecdotal remark of Churchill at the bottom of p. 443 is symbolic and reminiscent of some of the posts on this forum.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
28 Apr 2010 #134
Unfortunately most Poles see us "giving" them away. Im not an expert on this part of history, but I keep hearing Churchill being brought up, I think we sometimes forget there was another failure who was PM at the start of the war.

Poland at the time was hardly worth thinking about on world schemes. As Norman Davies says it has a trend of building itself up then the very politicians voted for destroying the country. Bit like what is happening today eh?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 Apr 2010 #135
Oh Brits definitely gave Poland away, Poland saved UK by principle of making Bletchley Park possible (and possibly saving RAF during BoBs critical period) and there was not even a token protest.

No one reasonably expected UK to fight or even enter any kind of conflict over Poland but Poland was given away without even a blink, add to that humiliating Poles by not inviting them to the victory parade and you get the idea.

Its not what UK did or didnt do, no one in UK even spoke for Poland.

As far as actuall giving away US is the culprit, to use the metaphore, US killed the man but UK shat on his corpse.

Poland at the time was hardly worth thinking about on world schemes.

Quite wrong, non-communist Poland would have prevented the cold war by principle of shifting Russias focus from global to regional.

As Norman Davies says it has a trend of building itself up then the very politicians voted for destroying the country. Bit like what is happening today eh?

I'm sorry but in WW2 its Brits, French and Americans who indirectly and Germans and Russians who directly destroyed Poland,much our elites died quite often defending a hopeless case when all of the world either killed or betrayed us.

Thats how it looks from our side so people like Shelleys posting about blame culture can go fock themselves (well not Shelleys i actually like her despite the stupid thread) we have no intention of forgetting, ever.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #136
What obligation did Britain have to save Poland? Are you forced to speak German now? Don't you know your national anthem? Why not blame Australia? Try to call up a speech given by Michael Gilbert in Kraków. He attempts to set the story straight.

Without a blink, Sok? You don't know that at all. Don't you see that Jews were pulling the strings even then? Communism was seen as a lighter force than Fascism but one which, Churchill and Roosevelt felt, could be contained. It didn't pose as direct and immediate a threat as Hitler.

We paid you our respects, Sok. Your pilots command the utmost respect but please remember that they were using British aircraft.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #137
Communism was seen as a lighter force than Fascism but one which, Churchill and Roosevelt felt, could be contained. It didn't pose as direct and immediate a threat as Hitler.

Oh boy Seanie....you don't really believe all that "good war"-fight against evil propaganda, don't you?

Communism was by most people seen as the real threat!
If it would had gone after the wishes of the West they would had been totally content with the Nazis going East killing Commies. They would even had lend a hand.

Fascism had alot more sympathies than Communism in the "good 'ol times"!

If Hitler had used this smartly everything would had gone differently....but he wouldn't play by the rules...to full of himself he wanted a newly carved up Europe after his wishes. A Europe carved up already by the old Empires between themselves long ago...they couldn't possible allow that.

So "Germany first!" became the doctrine...

Why do you think Germany became so shortly after Hitler was disposed of at last again the class primus of the West, supported, fed, rearmed...the frontline in the fight against the now again openly communist "red menace"?

Fascism was never the problem - Hitler and his grand plans was!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #138
Look, are you familiar with what happened just 30 miles out of Berlin in April 1945? I'm curious, do you know?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #140
Probably not ;0 ;)

Nah, involving soldiers.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #141
Ummm...;)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Seelow_Heights
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #142
Sth similar but the info I'm thinking about isn't written there.
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #143
HMG failed to provide to Poland "complete and speedy information concerning any development which might threaten their independence". Stalin's postulation on the Polish border and its political makeup post WW2 was a development which might have (and did) threaten Poland's independence. Failure to pass this info to Poland was a prima facie breach.

Firstly, Stalin's position on the Polish border was supported by Poles such as General Sikorski. Secondly, there were no hostilities between Poland and the USSR at that time (and in fact Poland and the USSR had been allies for years). Thirdly was no threat to Polish independence from the USSR: the USSR had committed to free and fair elections post-war in Poland.

Now perhaps you could explain how Poland didn't stab its Ukrainian allies in the back at the treaty of Riga?

humiliating Poles by not inviting them to the victory parade

Back to that old lie, eh? How utterly pathetic.

we have no intention of forgetting, ever.

Why? You've already forgotten that hundreds of thousands of Poles were given homes and jobs in the UK after the war. And that some tens of thousand Poles stayed in the UK at the end of the war because they had actually been fighting on the side of the Germans. The UK treated Poles so well that even Poles who had fought against the UK were given everything that they needed for a new life in the UK. But that just isn't good enough for Poles, so they just forget it.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #144
Harry makes a super point in the last part of his post. They were given a lot by the UK out of generosity. Jobs, homes and a lot of support. Nobody can deny this as it is just a fact! Ask Poles from that era if you trust them to be truthful.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 Apr 2010 #145
What obligation did Britain have to save Poland?

None, what obligation does Poland have to forget british treason and generations of anti-polish propaganda and historic lies afterwards? None.

Without a blink, Sok? You don't know that at all.

I know what Churchill said, i know that british historians list polish achievements crucial to UK safety as their own.

We cracked the Enigma, We provided Bletchley Park with mathematics and tools needed to operate it, We accounted for 60% of Luftwaffe kills in the crucial four weeks of the BoB and 13% total kills, it was Our mathematics, Our intel, Our effort.

Without Poles Brits would be blind deaf and stupid, the moment i read Bletchley Park or BoB was a british success Brits can kiss my ass, so yeah not only did UK sell Poland without a blink, not only did it mistreat Poles every step of the way but it then stole all polish achievements as its own.

Harry makes a super point in the last part of his post. They were given a lot by the UK out of generosity. Jobs, homes and a lot of support. Nobody can deny this as it is just a fact! Ask Poles from that era if you trust them to be truthful.

I skip Harrys posts, you know how repetitive he is but since you bring it up, Poles were not given any support beyond a token sum of money, they've been disbanded and treated as second class citizens.

Common Brits were a different matter, they helped and they not the british govt are the reason our people managed to find themselves a life in UK.

We paid you our respects, Sok. Your pilots command the utmost respect but please remember that they were using British aircraft.

Please remember they had no obligation to fight for UK, they could just board a ship to USA. please remember that at that particular time UK had no trained pilots to spare and Poles were all among the top scoring fighter squadrons.

Also speaking of british aircraft, polish pilots were treated as second class even then, they received Hurricanes when british pilots of inferior skill got newer Spitfires, even the 303 squadron received Spitfires after BoB.

To add insult to injury people running statistics intentionally did not acknowledge 303s reports of shot down aircraft to have british pilots as top scoring aces.

The british 603 had a 57.8 reported victories (Brits flying Spitfires) , 303 had 60 confirmed victories flying older Hurricanes but british people running statistics acknowledged only 30.

So dont tell me about blame culture or obligations, as far as i'm concerned not a single Pole should have died for UK, your entire country is not worth one drop of our blood, yeah we like your money but thats just because you're fat with wealth and easy to milk, but forgetting how you treated us during WW2? Ne-f*cking-ver.

Since you live in Poland you know i speak for the nation now, all generations.
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #146
anti-polish propaganda and historic lies

Always amusing to see a racist liar complaining about supposed racist lies.

We cracked the Enigma, We provided Bletchley Park with mathematics and tools needed to operate it,

No, you cracked an Enigma machine which was not used in WWII and helped crack the machines which were used in WWII. The fact that Poles were only able to crack Engima because they were given documents by French military intelligence is another fact that Poles like Sokrates always lie about.

We accounted for 60% of Luftwaffe kills in the crucial four weeks of the BoB and 13% total kills,

Yet another lie. But Poles are given to lying about the Battle of Britain, as is best shown by the events of 26 September 1940 when a single Polish squadron claimed to have shot down 44% more German planes than the Germans lost to the entire RAF!

Poles were not given any support beyond a token sum of money, they've been disbanded and treated as second class citizens.

And yet more pathetic lies from you.

Please remember they had no obligation to fight for UK, they could just board a ship to USA.

Where they would have been asked "Where is your visa?" and then told "Well you'd better get the next boat back to Poland."

I skip Harrys posts, you know how repetitive he is

Yes, repetitively kicking your arrse and pointing out that you are nothing more than a racist liar and proof positive that Hitler's views about Poles were certainly not groundless.
Bzibzioh
28 Apr 2010 #147
No, you cracked an Enigma machine which was not used in WWII and helped crack the machines which were used in WWII. The fact that Poles were only able to crack Engima because they were given documents by French military intelligence is another fact that Poles like Sokrates always lie about.

That is incorrect, as usual, Harry. Speaking of Enigma: to add insult to the injury Brits had the nerve to make a movie about it and make a Pole the villain who seeks to betray the secret of Enigma decryption.

Blame my ass!
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #148
Which particular part is incorrect? That Poles were only able to crack Enigma machines which had three rotors and by the start of WWII the Germans were using machines which had five rotors and thus were uncrackable to the Poles? Or that Poles were only able to crack Enigma in the first place because French intelligence had given them Gebrauchsanweisung für die Chiffriermaschine Enigma (Instructions for Using the Enigma Cipher Machine) and Schlüsselanleitung für die Chiffriermaschine Enigma (Keying Instructions for the Enigma Cipher Machine) along with two pages of Enigma daily keys (for September and October 1932)? Surely you can not mean that Poles were not a help to the British cryptanalysts who worked on after the fall of Poland. Peter Calvocoressi, who became head of the Luftwaffe section in Hut 3, wrote in commenting on the Polish contribution: "The one moot point is - how valuable? According to the best qualified judges it accelerated the breaking of Enigma by perhaps a year. The British did not adopt Polish techniques but they were enlightened by them."

Perhaps you would like to return to your lies about Polish troops being used as slave labour by the British? That shows perfectly your knowledge of history.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #149
None, Sok, exactly! Britain helped to win the war for the Allies, isn't that enough?

Well, you should have gone to the Patent Office in Munich. Many of the best inventions of modern times are Scottish and have I heard any thanks for that? Not really!

Common Brits helped out and they are the ones that matter, given that there were around 58 million of them. The government is but a corrupt entity.
Bzibzioh
28 Apr 2010 #150
(Instructions for Using the Enigma Cipher Machine)

How those instructions FOR USING the Enigma machine were helpful in cracking the code again?
Don't try to add weight to an otherwise flimsy argument.

Perhaps you would like to return to your lies about Polish troops being used as slave labour by the British?

Perhaps you would like to get some info before opening your ignorant mouth? Again.

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