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The Polish Blame Culture!


hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #181
Interesting, thanks for the facts.

Although that was strictly private, i would imagine and not the official position at the time. And party the result of necessity.
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #182
would you care to elaborate? i have never heard of this before. And could you please post some links.

Well, given that 89,300 of the 228,000 soldiers of the Western Command army were ex-German armed forces and the majority of those 228,000 soldiers settled in Britain after the end of WWII, it's a fairly safe bet that tens of thousands of Poles who were formerly in the German armed forces settled in Britain after the war. Even if you were to take the stance that Poles who were ex-German armed forces were twice as likely to want to go back to Poland as Western Command soldiers who hadn't served in the German forces (a situation which is at the least somewhat unlikely), you still have some 25,000-odd settling in the UK.

Oh, I didn't read it carefully enough. I think Harry is having a laugh with the 'fighting alongside the Germans' part.

No, I wasn't. 35% of the Western Command soldiers were ex-German forces and the majority of the Western Command soldiers settled in Britain after the war. Another 15,517 Polish members of the German armed forces were captured by the British and declined to join the Polish armed forces. As of 4 June 1946, 12,419 had been returned to Poland. I doubt they enjoyed their welcome. The fact that more than 100,000 Poles joined the German armed forces is one which Poles have been very very quick to forget.
FredChopin - | 61
28 Apr 2010 #183
so when will all the blame culture end?

I would say when the older crowd currently running PL is replaced by some of the young up and comers. Youth often don't want to follow their elders as far as decision making is concerned. They will have been brought up in a much more dynamic economy, where entrepreneurialism is rewarded, along with a can-do attitude. Once this is in place, the majority of the blame culture will be replaced. Just my thoughts.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #184
after the end of WWII, it's a fairly safe bet that tens of thousands of Poles who were formerly in the German armed forces settled in Britain after the war.

I see, pure speculation, i suppose you also don't take it into account that many of these supposed Germano-Poles were forcibly conscripted?

Again, could you provide a link or some evidence?
Bzibzioh
28 Apr 2010 #185
The fact that more than 100,000 Poles joined the German

Interesting how in just one post the number changes from 89,300 to more than 100,000. And of course it's absolutely impossible than any one of them were ethnic Germans living in Poland before the war.
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #186
I see, pure speculation, i suppose you also don't take it into account that many of these supposed Germano-Poles were forcibly conscripted?

Not pure speculation at all. Data released by the British government in conjunction with the Polish government-in-exile. But do feel free to give the traditional Polish reaction when faced with uncomfortable facts from the past, i.e. deny, deny, deny.

As for evidence, have a look at Hansard from 1946 or Dr Mark Ostrowski's excellent book "To Return To Poland Or Not To Return: The Dilemma Facing The Polish Armed Forces At The End Of The Second World War". Here's chapter one: angelfire.com/ok2/polisharmy/chapter1.html

And of course it's absolutely impossible than any one of them were ethnic Germans living in Poland before the war.

89,300 is the number of Poles who joined the Polish army after having first been captured while members of the German armed forces. 15,517 is the number of Poles who were captured by the British while fighting in the German armed forces but did not join the Polish army. 89,300 + 15,517 = >100,000 And that's before we've started to count the Poles who were not captured. Do you have any proof that they were not Poles?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #187
89,300 is the number of Poles who joined the Polish army after having first been captured while members of the German armed forces.

Surely you are smart enough to realize that these people were most probably forcibly conscripted? It happened to the grandfather of the current Polish PM.

And you have not posted your source yet.

Data released by the British government in conjunction with the Polish government-in-exile

which you haven't posted
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #188
Surely you are smart enough to realize that these people were most probably forcibly conscripted?

Yeah...most of the Wehrmacht soldiers were forcibly conscripted! ;)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #189
Yes, but if they refused did they get a bullet in the head, or did they have their family members tortured?
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #190
It happened to the grandfather of the current Polish PM.

Sure, they were all forcibly conscripted. Which is why they only started to desert in large numbers from autumn 1944 onwards (the number who deserted during the north africa campaigns and in Italy before Italian surrender was so small that it wasn't even worth keeping records of). Finding a Pole who joined the German armed forces by choice is as hard as finding an Austrian who supported the Nazi party.

And you have not posted you source yet.

Perhaps you would care to click the link in the post immediately above yours? Or are you practising the traditional Polish reaction to uncomfortable fact and denying, denying, denying that the link exists?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #191
[quote=Harry]Sure, they were all forcibly conscripted. Which is why they only started to desert in large numbers from autumn 1944 onwards (the number who deserted during the north africa campaigns and in Italy before Italian surrender was so small that it wasn't even worth keeping records of). Finding a Pole who joined the German armed forces by choice is as hard as finding an Austrian who supported the Nazi party.

[/quote
The fact remains that Poland was the only one without a Quisling gov.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #192
Yes, but if they refused did they get a bullet in the head, or did they have their family members tortured?

What do you think? Of course...
Do you really think the army made a difference if the draft dodger were a Reichs German or a Volksdeutscher???
The F├╝hrer needed soldiers and he got 'em!
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #193
I see, i wasn't aware of the punishments inflicted on those who refused to join.
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #194
The fact remains that Poland was the only one without a Quisling gov.

And that was purely because Poland and Poles weren't given the chance to form one. Every other European country existed and so could have a Quisling govt. Poland did not exist as a country from 1939 to 1944 and the Nazis had no interest at all in a Polish state existing: their vision was of a future free of the Polish race. The fact that >100,000 Poles joined the Nazi armed forces shows that there wasn't a shortage of Poles willing to work with the Nazis.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #195
no interest at all in a Polish state existing: their vision was of a future free of the Polish race.

Yes but they contemplated a country like Slovakia as a German ally, that might be partly due to the fact the Poles would have no truck with the Nazis, so that is why they wanted to liquidate them.

As for the Poles you mentioned that joined the Nazis, how many of them would have had a dual heritage?
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #196
It was more probably because Nazi ideology viewed Poles as untermenschen and saw Poland as a land fit to be settled by Aryan colonists while the few Poles who could be aryanised were aryanised (see the Zamosc plan for a textbook example) and the remainder of the Polish race were transported to Siberian and the far east where they would interbreed with local races and so be assimilated.

As for the Poles you mentioned that joined the Nazis, how many of them would have had a duel heritage?

Who knows. Almost certain some did but it is as possible to prove that none did as it is possible to prove that all did. Statistically speaking, it is pretty much certain that at least some of that 100,000 Poles were ethnically German Jews!
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #197
It was more probably because Nazi ideology viewed Poles as untermenschen

I know that, but why the Slovaks then and the Latvians?
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #198
Er, you do know that the Nazis were not exactly noted for their logic, don't you? I can't explain to you why Nazi ideology was what it was, only what it was.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Apr 2010 #199
No they were not, but I go back to my earlier comment that the Poles were unwilling to cooperate whith Hitler that is why unlike the Slovaks or Latvians, they needed to be destroyed.
Harry
28 Apr 2010 #200
the Poles were unwilling to cooperate whith Hitler that is why unlike the Slovaks or Latvians, they needed to be destroyed.

No, they needed to be destroyed because they were Poles: the Poles who wanted to co-operate would be Aryanised.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #201
Sok, you have focussed more on Britain than the root cause of the war, Nazi Germany. What's with that? What else can we blame, the wind? Polish underwear was too tight and thus a distraction? The shoes were too heavy? The orgies were too good and sidetracked you?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #202
Sok, you have focussed more on Britain than the root cause of the war, Nazi Germany. What's with that?

Might be because Germany never posed himself as ally and promised help and support to Poland...(just a hunch)

Quite to the contrary Germany was always quite honest and serious with his plans...no betrayals here!
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
28 Apr 2010 #203
Might be because Germany never posed himself as ally and promised help and support to Poland...(just a hunch)

What would have happened if Germany had just stayed in Germany?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #204
What, an ally doesn't allow the use of his elite fighter planes to whip Luftwaffe as*? The British govt operates out of self interest around the world and the Poles were gullible enough to fall for their ostensible support. Still, we won the war and it's worth remembering that Poland was a stronger power than Nazi Germany in 1933.
Barr_2009 1 | 252
28 Apr 2010 #205
Heard about the latest story involving Brown, funnily enough it involves eastern Europeans, it could be his breaking moment. fingers crossed

It was digusting wasn't it. I think good on the woman, she said the things the politicians are afraid to say. About our fears of the ridiculous levels of immigration from Eastern Europe! It should be an issue. Only the conservatives spoke about a cap on this type of EU immigration, and it's why I feel like voting conservative!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #206
What would have happened if Germany had just stayed in Germany?

What if Poles had relinquished their independence? Impossible, right?

Also for many Germans Hitler righted things which were just wrong...that wasn't possible with "staying in Germany" as this Germany was cut down and weakened by the Treaty they all protested against.

Still, we won the war

The US and Russia won, Seanie...you were a loser too in the end! There was not much Great in Great Britain anymore after the war...
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
28 Apr 2010 #207
What if Poles had relinquished their independence?

What? Why should they? What if Germany were asked to be divided amongst France, Poland and Austria-Hungary?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
28 Apr 2010 #208
What if Germany were asked to be divided between France, Poland and Austria-Hungary?

You don't expect your Poles to accept injustice? But you do so from the Germans...We lost 1/4 of our territory and millions of people, whole towns...not to mention industry and fertile soil. It was a partition with many Germans now placed in new countries opressed and harassed!
Barr_2009 1 | 252
28 Apr 2010 #209
The US and Russia won, Seanie...you were a loser too in the end!

The UK was equal with the US in beating the Nazis. I'd hand the biggest contribution to the Russians. Take a look at the history. We were the first to defeat the nazis in the battle of Britain, and fought equally with the US in the push into Germany at the end. We were never going all out to beat the nazis, we were about defence mostly. But, don't downgrade our effort below that of US! Russia, then fair enough!
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
28 Apr 2010 #210
You could have waited and the face of Europe would have gotten another chin implant and Germany would have gotten more territory that way, eventually.

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