70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies

What 'straw'? The facts have been presented to you. People's homes were stolen, and after 1937, their churches stolen, their language suppressed, and their protests met with gunfire.

A tragic history.

Clearly I need to repeat for the third time, might I refer you to the Act on Nationalization of North-Eastern Powiats of the Republic "ustawa z dnia 17 grudnia 1920 r. o przejęciu na własność Państwa ziemi w niektórych powiatach Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej".

To jon:
The military settlement of the Eastern Borderlands has a lasting place in the history of the Second Republic, even though it only included some 9000 soldiers who actually fought for independence during the 1914-1920 period.


Is that all what you are able to achieve here??? :):)

Unfortunately your source is less reliable than The Economist article. One is putting a point of view, one is neutral.

And yes, it was 17,700 people moved there.

So, Economist has become an authority on historical issues.... :):):)


Never mind, my 9000 against your 17 something doesnt` really matter. The fact is that there was sort of Polish ex-military colonisation in the East in 1921-25 and Ukrainians/Belarussians objected a lot because they wanted to take the land for themselves.

LOL! I wonder why you edited out the link to that source? Could it be because even that source agrees that the land was stolen land?


Nice one pawian!

Interesting. Exactly what the Prussians/ Germans are usually accused of... :)

I wanted to prepare a better one! :):)

@Harry Don`t bother, jon said it is an untrustworthy source. :):):) You should believe him, shouldn't` you? :):):)

To know what word was actually used in that original Sejm declaration of 1923 you would have to dig in the archives.

There isn't much doubt about it - and after all the two cultures are neighbours. Germany does however tend to be more pragnmatic about acknowledging the past I don't remember saying that though - are you sure it's a quote from me?


It always has been well researched.


The worst of it was later, after 1937 as you were told a few minutes ago.


Perhaps because they lived there?


Oh dear...

Oh sorry, it's taken from the quote of the Economist that you posted on page 2.

If you say so, we must believe you. :):):)

Ok, now I must check other threads.

See you here soon! :):)

Most people would. They have a first class reputation for integrity and a much better reputation than the internet sites that you try to selectively quote.

Source, please... :) After all, it was you who demanded facts: :):):)


Where in the article you gave us link to is the reference to the number 17700????


Where is there any reference to Polish pre-war settlement policy in Kresy?

It seems you don`t know what you are talking about and you mix all your sources. :):):)

Jon, get a grip and run a serious discussion but first you need to do more reading on the topic. (possibly, not through 1000-word articles from Economist .....)


Sorry, I have to withdraw this one. :):)


:):):)

Andrzej Gawryszewski (2005). "XI: Przemieszczenia ludności". In Ludmiła Leszczyńska. Ludność Polski w XX wieku. Warsaw: Polish Academy of Sciences. pp. 381-383. ISBN 83−87954−66−7.

Władysław Pobóg-Malinowski (1990). Najnowsza historia polityczna Polski 1864-1945 II. Warsaw: Krajowa Agencja Wydawnicza. pp. 623-624. ISBN 83-03-03162-7.

Enjoy.

hahahaha :):):)


Yes, I do enjoy the fact that you only copied the references from this Wiki site
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_%281944%E2%80%9346%29

instead of quoting directly from it:
The situation was however aggravated by the fact that only 4 percent of the newly-arrived settlers lived on their land, while the majority either rented their land to local farmers at a high price or abandoned their land altogether, a situation unacceptable to many inhabitants of the overpopulated and land hunger-stricken region

Embarrassed to admit you use Wiki? :):):) Come on.....

But thank you anyway. :):):) This matter is really very intriguing and needs further research on our side.

Jon, Harry has just provided a source for you to solve your numerical problem with Polish settlers in Kresy:
In Poland, 8,265 settlers (mostly of Polish ethnicity) were settled by the government in Kresy.

That would be because I didn't take those references from that page. I took them from this page:...


You didn't ask for quotes: you asked for sources; so I gave you sources. Do feel very free to argue with them.

Hopefully the sources I give won't be like the one you offered, i.e. confirm the exact opposite of what you claimed the source actually said.

It doesn`t matter which Wiki page you took it from. What matters is you chose rather random references to prove your point. You haven`t read those books you mentioned, have you? So how do you know that they comprise the 4% issue we are talking about????

Isn`t it funny?


hahaha you are very accurate, indeed. Quotes are not sources, true. :):):)

So, the random sources you provided from a Wiki site are fully enough in your opinion?

No surprise here, only you know who can have a genocide.

Now, you're deliberately tring to confuse the two periods in which properties were taken by the Polish government. Would you like a reference for the figure of 17,000?


Again, you're trying to confuse - but not very well, since there are many sources for the happenings between 1921 and 1939.


Respectable - and far more authoritative than 'kresy.pl' who exist to present a point of view.


Precisely.

Don`t be silly, you only think it is authoritative.
Let`s be honest, the article is a history in a pill for simpletons - it contains a few mistakes. And it also presents a point of view, e.g, quotes from that Lviv based historian which are nonsense:

Mr Hrytsak says. "You had a terrain that was ready to explode." What followed was genocide, he says, but it must be viewed within the context of a pyramid of genocidal acts committed on the territory of Ukraine in the 1930s and 1940s, starting from the Holocaust and ending on Akcja Wisła, the forced deportation of tens of thousands of Ukrainians.


No, thanks, you took it from English Wiki entry on massacre.

But again you messed things up


while the Wiki says:
By 1938, thousands of Polish colonists and war veterans were encouraged to settle in Volhynia and Galicia. This number is estimated at 17,700 in Volhynia alone

So, the number 17700 doesn`t only refer to military settlers, but to all colonists.


OK, I will try to check these sources soon.

Guys, see you next week, we are going away.

I'd rather trust that historian than 'kresy.pl'


Actually I didn't, but never mind.


Who said it did refer only to the military occupiers?


Try Professor Żak's excellent book on the topic. Amazon stock it.

It is natural that some kind of reconciliation should take place, similar to the Polish German one. Of course, the weight is different, after all, Germans murdered people on a much greater scale.

However, it is difficult for Poles from old Kresy regions to reconcile when Ukrainians (from Western Ukraine) openly honour the organisers (both physical and moral) of the massacres.

Monument to Bandera in Lwow:

Poland Bandera

and to UPA:



That is what Poles think about it.

Look who's talking! Any Brit is the least qualified to accuse another nation of land stealing. Britain's colonial terrorist expeditionary forces conquered countries at every corner of the globe, stole, carried away or despoiled natural resources and killed, maimed, tortured and jailed natives trying to defend their land. Under their blood-stained Union Jack, British colonisers forcibly shoved their English language, culture and folkways down the throats of unwilling people world-wide. The settling of eastern reaches of the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by several thousand Polish freedom-fighters in tiny, puny, little Poland pales by comparison. It's a question of a huge soot-stained cauldron calling a speck of coal black!

The stolen land? You are entitled to your opinion but seems strange that a person who is upholding such a laughable point of view not only reside in Poland but also usurps a right to speak for Polish people.

Unlike non-colonial countries which over the ages have conquered and annexed adjacent territory, the Brits (together with the Dutch, French, Spanish and Portuguese) conquered and took possession of (or stole, if you prefer) land at every corner of the globe. They claimed it, exploited it to the hilt and reduced its rightful owners to serf or slave status.

Give us the land back!
And the money that we have lost during WW2... western cowards :(

What is non-colonial about the PLC? The Rus people, who are the ancestors of Belarusians and Ukrainians lived there continuously since before Poland and Lithuania took the lands. They ended up as the ones with serf and slave status.

How far back do you want to go? To the migraiton of peoples period? The Avars, Huns, Mongols, Goths and myriad other tribal nations wandered across Europe to and fro, conquering, interbreeding, annexing and in turn receding, disappearing or melting into the then-indigenous population.

Re-enactment against re-enactment.

Poles had theirs on 20 July depicting Ukrainian attack on a Polish village:









Yesterday, Ukrainians made a re-enactment about Poles attacking a Ukrainian village and UPA defending it.

And what is the body count on both sides of the Wołyń massacre?