70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies

There's a lot of them around - off the top of my head in Bieszczady, there's one in Cisna that is more or less abandoned. Many of the "anti-fascist" memorials from the PRL era aren't maintained too round here - I'll take some pictures for you :)


Don't tell me you see it as some sort of competition? :P

No, the thing I object to is the memorials everywhere for bad things that happened to Poles, but very little recognition of bad things that Poles did to others. Hence why -


Is sad for me - I'd like to see monuments remembering all those innocent killed in Wołyń, not just Poles. No matter how you put it, that place was a disaster.


Sad. There's still so much bitterness on the part of ordinary people over the whole thing.


Of course, but it doesn't appeal to those interested in doom and gloom. It confuses me why there isn't some sort of monument to the 4th June 1989, or why there aren't streets named after that day.

An excellent article on this:


economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2 013/07/polish-ukrainian-relations

I believe one of the major problems with this was that the veterans preferred to stay in the developed central/Western lands, acting as absentee landlords and upsetting both Ukrainian and Polish peasants alike.

I've read that only 4% of the Osadniks actually lived on 'their' land.

Yes.


No. What seizure of land are you talking about? You mean Poles stole land from Ukrainians??? Better do some reading:


kresy24.pl/23568/17-grudnia-1920
jpilsudski.org/artykuly-ii-rzeczpospolita-dwudziestolecie-miedzywojnie/spoleczenstwo/item/1718-polskie-osadnictwo-wojskowe


You should do some reading, too.

Read the article - written by someone without the baggage of being on either side and far more neutral than you'll find on here.

Stop hiding behind an article.


I have no time.

I want you to explain what seizure of land you were talking about.

I was talking about??

The Economist is writing about, I think you pretended you didn't mean. And I'd certainly trust their article to be neutral and well-researched.

Yes, you quoted it here and advised posters to read it so I thought you are/were able to explain what Economist and you mean by seizure of land.

Are you or not?

Someone's having a bad night!

I think (and said) that the article is very worth reading. It presents a neutral point of view - very even handed. Something we don't often see here. If anything, the writer plays down the behaviour of Poland in the pre-war years.

Might I refer you to the Act on Nationalization of North-Eastern Powiats of the Republic "ustawa z dnia 17 grudnia 1920 r. o przejęciu na własność Państwa ziemi w niektórych powiatach Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej" and the Act on Granting the Soldiers of the Polish Army with Land "ustawa z dnia 17 grudnia 1920 r. o nadaniu ziemi żołnierzom Wojska Polskiego"? I'd be more than happy to dig up links to those two acts so you can read them for yourself.

hahaha no, I just returned from our 1 week holiday to finish the discussion. :):):)

Jon, as a responsible poster you should be aware of the consequences of quoting, linking ajnd suggesting to read articles. Don`t you understand that doing so you adopt the way of thinking presented in the article???

Again, I am asking you: what seizure of land are you both talking about????

And the consequences are that it's an article worth reading. Very even-handed.

I wonder if you're trying to suggest the Poles were innocent of any crimes in pre-war Volhynia?


Strange!

Did you not bother to read my last post?

I know about this one, it allowed the Polish state to own the land formerly controlled by Russian tsars, clergy, officials and landowners.

So, actually, that land never belonged to local Ukrainians or Belarussians.


Harry, why so impatient??? :):):)

Now of all the weak excuses for bad behaviour here, that one takes the biscuit. Seized from land owners is seized from land owners.

So you can`t explain.

In the future you should be more careful with quotes and links. Somoene may ask a question you won`t be able to answer! :):):)


Jon, do you read my answers to your posts???? :):):)

What did I say a few posts above???


hahahaha too late, my dear.

PS2. You shouldn`t play so low. As an intelligejnt person, you are aware there can be different kinds of seizure, aren`t you??? Seizing land from a Russian aristocrat whose rule had been terminated in Kresy by Bolshevik Revolution isn`t the same as seizing the land from poor Ukrainian peasants.

See above.


The answer is there in black and white. BTW, 17,000 people from other parts of Poland were moved into properties stolen from their owners.


Not much of an answer, and harsh is an understatement to say the least.


Too late for what? The Poles seized land from the inhabitants - which you tried to deny. And when proof is presented to you, you try to wriggle out of it!

Not very effective.

Jon, you are playing very low. Sad. :(:(:(

I don`t have time to battle with you now, but one day we shall continue. :):):)

Don't have time, or don't have the facts on your side.

It has been proven that the Second Republic moved people into stolen property. It's also true that churches were seized, the Polish language was imposed on people and strikes were brutally crushed. Perhaps it fits your point of view to demonise one side, however you do not do yourself any service by trying to pretend that the other side did nothing to enrage and terrorise the other.

How was it stolen exactly? Can you explain?


It is you who don`t provide facts, only resort to silly accusations. When I ask you to explain, you play stupid verbal games until someone else posts sth useful for you to catch at a straw.

The facts have been cited, the point has been proven. It does not flatter you to persist in such a way.

We tried to discuss this topic with you like an adult, but instead you just act like a child; so, no silly accusations, just statements of fact.

You are avoiding the answer again and waiting for me or Harry to post sth useful? :):):)

Let me repeat, then:

And let me repeat, might I refer you to the Act on Nationalization of North-Eastern Powiats of the Republic "ustawa z dnia 17 grudnia 1920 r. o przejęciu na własność Państwa ziemi w niektórych powiatach Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej".

How was the property stolen? The usual way - by moving someone out and moving someone else in. Are you trying to suggest that the 17,000 veterans who were promised land were handed the keys by the owners or that the congregations of the 300 churches handed them over with a hymn and a prayer?

No. I'm sure you're not suggesting that.


Indeed. A matter of public record - albeit one that doesn't suit everyone's point of view.

What facts are you stating? You only talk about stealing. When I ask you to explain how it looked like, you both shun the answer.

:):):)

Don`t be silly. Taking over the land after former Russian owners like tsars, clergy and aristocrats ( who had acquired it earlier thanks to Polish partitions) who got exterminated or expelled by the Bolshevik Revolution isn`t stealing. Are you crazy??? :):)


It seems you are mixing facts from different periods. :):):) And your numbers are wrong too.

No. from 1921 until 1939, with most of the terror after Pilsudski's death.


Indeed I understated the number. It was 17,700 not 17,000.

Stealing property is stealing property, no matter how you try to excuse it or justify it.

Oh, I see, catching at a straw again. :):):)

Sorry, you shouldn`t combine such a broad perspective. Right now we are discussing what you call "stealing the land" and it was taking place from 1921 to 1925.


I read about 9000.


:):):) You will say anything to have the last word. But I hope you do realise it is just plain stupid. :):):)