Residential real estate values go down in Poland

No, I was taking the ****. The assumption that renting is dead money, nobody loses money on property and all the other cliché's. Its true to an extent but not automatically. The rental yield on Krakow apartments looks ****, hence owning rather then renting might not be a good idea.


Thanks I'll pass. We have two properties and neither has a mortgage so I feel happy with my own advice.

Apart from the loan on one which you told us about on the previous page.

So is your memory shot or are your writing skills as good as your reading skills?

Its a personal unsecured loan. Nothing to do with the property and not a mortgage. I don't have to pay it.

well Harry you bought at a different time,now would be foolish.Save and rent is the situation NOW.

Hey Milky, Poland is not even in the top 10!!!!!

dailymail.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2071640/The-worlds-distressed-property-markets--grab-bargain-house.html

Probably becuase the Daily Mail doesn't believe there is a housing market in Poland, as everyone lives in mud-and-sod hovels.

They would likewise think that of Bulgaria and Hungary, but, they are still mentioned. So where is the "bubble" in Poland?

You seem to be confused, they are listing the top ten countries who have had the biggest crash, i.e. a bubble that has burst.

Oh!!! so there has not been a crash!!! has anyone told Milky?

you can't fall out of the bed if you're sleeping on the floor. Met a couple last night in Lublin who are moving to Ireland. It seems that, a doomed Ireland is still a better choice than low wage high prices Poland.

I doubt it. If you can't get a job than you can't buy anything.
Here in Poland there are jobs.

I'm beginning to change my mind about prices in Poland being too expensive. I've been watching House Hunters International, and it seem to me that their prices, especially in the cities have nothing to do with the average salaries of the natives. If renting an apartment in a city in Tanzania costs $5500/mo, paid cash for a year in advance, then there's more at play here than an average citizen being able to afford one. If the prices are staying so high, then that's what the market can bear.

1. House Hunters International shouldn't be substituted for personal knowledge of a given market.

2. Africa has a "few" issues that aren't really common in non-3rd-world countries.

Like getting shot if you rent in the wrong neighbourhood.

So apples and oranges really.

that was just one example. You missed the point.

All i know is that there are a load of properties for sale outside of major cities, these are mainly houses, people built and then realized the hassle of getting to work each day, As an example take Warszawa and Ulica Puławska it's a nightmare between 5 and 7pm to get anywhere.! However it does not help when drivers ignore what traffic lights are for either :)

I would not expect most Daily Mail readers to know were Poland is never mind invest in it...

why does every 3rd member on this thread seem to have resentment towards milky? I don't see any reason for it, is it because of something not in this thread?

I've also noticed that the most desirable are modern apartments within the walking distance to stores, nightlife and public transportation. If you got one of those, you can just pick your number.

Beliall, Pulawska is not a very good example as it stretches from the centrum all the way to Piaseczno proper (route 79) it is a nightmare from 7.30 am to 10 am and 3.30 pm to 7.30pm although there are two ways to Circumnavigate the road block.


Milky, is alright he brings his point to the table, as the protaganist of doom and gloom sooner or later the Pendulum will swing to his side, boom is always followed by bust.Poland is not unique or recession proof, she has already had two recessions since the begging of RP3.

I wouldn't go so far as 'pick your number' - however they are getting a high selling price - however you will see their sales are slow (although this is compared to the days when things were sold before they were even built, which isn't normal in the rest of the world). I'm not sure exactly where you are thinking of, for example:

Grzybowska 4 - prices PLN 11,800 to PLN 30,000 - about 70 of 240 left for sale
Twarda/Metropolotin - will be interesting, selling from Feb 2012 - prices up to PLN 20,000
Zlote 44 - average price of PLN 30,000 - about 75 of 200+ sold I believe
Platinum towers - bit of a disaster, I think they converted 200 of the apartments into hotel rooms
Opera 2- no idea what they have sold, they don't even advertise, prices up to PLN 50,000/m2 - anyone know the sales success for this project?

I think the safest place in Mokotow, anywhere from the center up to Racławicka metro station.

Warsaw has some similarities to Toronto (in terms of the metro layout) - my understanding is that all the real estate along the metro demands high prices whereas the real estate not along the metro lines goes for significantly less.

Personally (for myself) I would never buy anything not on the metro lines. It costs more but the premium you will recover (of course it will also go down with the market) - reality is I rarely take the metro - but I like to be able to when I want/need to.

it does seem to be unjustified however the forum is going to hell

the real estate prices are going to fall. unless that is one believes that Poland is a truly magical place where the rules of economics do not apply

Most with any knowledge of the subject, have agreed over the past 3 years that there would be a fall/correction in prices due to the credit scenario. Milky has advocated for a crash, which, has not happened.

He uses examples from Ireland and the US to enforce his arguments but fails to realise that Poland has a far different problem. He thinks new properties should be sold for less than it costs to build them, ie: around the 2,000 PLN m2 mark. He seems not to able understand that no developer is going to do this. We all wish that the brand new car we want to buy is going to be 10,000 PLN but that is not going to happen either, nor will you see petrol/diesel prices back down to 3 zloty per ltr (unless Poland has an oil field we do not know about).

You mention the rules of economics, they do apply here, which is why Milky's predictions, cannot be taken seriously.
If, you were to follow his logic, the prices listed by BRS would not exist. Perhaps BRS will tell us if any of these apartments are listed at a 50%-60% discount? and if they have been on the markets for some time, why not?

Take "Grzybowska 4 - prices PLN 11,800 to PLN 30,000 - about 70 of 240 left for sale" as another example, the developer will have recovered his investment, he only has to sit back and wait. As long as he is not in a hurry to reinvest, there should be no problem, especially as his price range is well below the top end of the market.

good points

the whole essence of doing this developing lark is to get paid as there is a lot of risk and aggravation in the business

If one is a developer and you are not going to get a return, don't build the bloody things.

That is "exactly" what Milky does not understand. Maybe if the developer was working on a 5% profit, Milky would think this was fair. Unfortunately, for the risk involved, the developer would be better off buying Greek and Italian bonds, at least the EU will back the debt.

what is interesting in Warsaw anyway, is that builders are starting to add "perks"--there is an osiedle close to me- extremely overpriced but the houses sell- it is next to the American school of Warsaw- they must have slow sales because they are offering a mini cooper if you buy a house there. 180m2 starts at 2.5 million pln. a developer I did work for have also lowered their asking price and offer 100% financing.

still no bubble.

Even if they are very unlikely to fall to that level, the price won't be determined by a developer, but by the market. The fact that developers won't build is irrelevant.


The EU will never do that, its illegal in the EU and Germany and any country could veto it.

"The opponents of large-scale ECB intervention argue that it would be illegal under the EU treaties for the bank to intervene to support member governments' debts. This, however, appears to be a debateable point. It is clearly ruled out that the ECB should directly finance member governments by buying newly issued bonds in the primary market. However, some argue that it would be legitimate for the ECB to buy bonds in the secondary bond market, in order to promote "financial stability" throughout the eurozone."

So who is buying Greek, Italian and Spanish bonds? investors or the ECB, where does the ECB get its money from?. The ECB is buying up to 20,000,000 euros worth of bonds per week. None of the hedge funds or soveriegn wealth funds will touch these bonds. Even with a 30,000,000 euro austerity package which was announced by Italy, last Friday, the borrowing rate for Italy is up to nearly 7% again. The markets have reacted to the european finance meeting held last Friday, they are down because they do not believe a new treaty will solve the problems of soveriegn debt, especially when nobody knows where rthe money is coming from.

What is stagnating the property market is the lack of lending by the banks.

Merkel has now promised "no more haircuts for bondholders", so where is the money to guarantee these bonds coming from..........lol....you really are misinformed.

This is the confusion PIP, as there are two American schools in Warsaw, one in Kabaty and the other one next to GTC. There is also the Israeli project across the street from GTC and they have discounted their prices by up to 40%.Everyone in the real estate industry in Warsaw knows that prices in the burbs are sinking quickly. So for you to suggest they are not is wrong PIP. Be honest please.

What I've noticed in Poznan and Wroclaw - flats with good public transport links and road links, in areas with good schools and not next to Commie-era flats are retaining their value and even increasing. But those built on the cheap are not shifting - and it seems pretty obvious why.

Beats me why anyone would buy a flat nowhere near tram/train stops, though.

do you have proof that GTC has discounted their prices up to 40%--if so please send me a link because I will buy it today. That is the one I am talking about. I checked today and shell and core 180mr is 2.5 million pln. The bigger houses are 3.5 million pln. I have friends that live there and they didn't buy a house for 6 million- so perhaps you are off on your estimate. And if you drive by you can see on their signs that they offer a mini cooper if you buy a new house.

The school in Kabaty is the International American school- not the same thing.


not accurate. they are adjusting to market value.