RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES...

Yes, our fault that they found the mass grave that late....sorry, so sorry!

There are still more mass graves to unearth....it will follow us for a long time I fear.
What do you advise Seanie....you find a grave with murdered people and just let it go?
Would you do the same if it were scottish women and children?

I'm not sure why investigations many years later are so bad.

We in the US are always hearing about investigations into atrocities against Jews, Blacks and other groups no matter how much time went by.

What practical results you would expect from it if it would started? If it is possible - please find out their names to put on their graves and leave their souls in piece.

The only lesson we can get is that never again war should happen.

How can be the records made public if NO ONE was recording who was shot over there.
You study history, but have no clue…

My grandpa was in Wehrmacht, spent 2 years in Russian POW camp. He told me that the only people who could write were high ranking officials. There was no official written record of him being there ever produced.

The Russian guy in charge of the camp could only count to 5. My grandpa escaped with 4 other guys and Russians haven't noticed it for days.

You will never know who was shot there for sure.

You know very well that these trials keep having place, and verdicts of this sort are given. You are true about being punished by living a life in fear but it seems not enough, and the families of the victims have the possibility to demand for more.


we "at least"... Jed, you are not naive and you have understood what I have ment from the start. I wasn't reffering to specific people. Like in the case of the nazis, individual convictions and trials are one thing, and recognition of some crimes by the state is another. You played the victim card saying that Russia was left to take the guilt for the soviet crimes, but unlike the other nowadays countries and ethnicities that made part willingly or not of the Soviet Union who condemned the crimes of the soviets whom ever they were at that time, Russia still is reluctant to admit that crimes took place. You expect people to see you as liberators, but how could they when the "liberation" was done most of the time through rapes and killings.

You speak of a trial, you know very well that for the Soviets was not possible for more than 50 years. Giving the argument of the winner who has to be excerpted of any judgement of its actions, you play the argumentum ad baculum in a century where it is no place for it.

You say that you preffer evolution over revolution. Nobody is talking about revolution or another war yet you feel somewhat obliged to mention it, I wonder why. Evolution can not take place through jumping over stages, trying to deny, hid or simply ignore that crimes of this magnitude have taken place on all sides is a sign of involution.

In the end, you say that we should let bygons be bygons and move forward. True, we should forgive and move forward but not forget, otherwise we move in circles. And this is what my point is all about, Russia wants everybody to forget as well. If you have been recognised heir of the Soviet Union with all its rights, then be heir with all the responsibility that comes from that past as well.

You're obviously subscribing to the Russian version (and unfortunately due to peoples ignorance often the West's version) of history.

Stalin reneged on the molotov-ribbentrop (sp?) secret portion of the pact with the Nazi Germany where they divided Poland and the Baltic states amongst themselves. His ultimate goal was to get back all the territories Russia lost during and after the revolution. Germany attacked one week after the pact was signed on Sept 1, 1939. Instead of attacking Poland on Sept 1 as agreed to they attacked Poland a few weeks later on Sept 17th portraying themselves as protector's from the German invasion.

Fast forward to today - for the entire time Poland was occupied and later under the Russian brain-wash the Polish population was forced to teach their children about the German invasion and the Soviet "rescue action". You know, Katyń never happened, oh yeah ut happened but it was the Germans who did it, 70 years later (well technically when Yeltsin came to power), ooops, that was the Russians after all. Yet Katyń was just a small part of the Soviet atrocities committed against Poland and made "visible" due to the size of the murders in one place alone.

Today Poland is a free country yet people like you seem to know more about all kinds of anti-American conspiracies, such as 9/11 then you know about your own country being attacked by Germany and Russia in coordination spelled out in the secret portion of the molotov-ribbentrop agreement.

So yes, Stalin was a much worse tyrant and murderer because overall more people died under his regime than under Hitler's. Stalin came to power in 1924 and his murderous campain starter soon therafter. Hitler came to power (ironically in democratic elections) in 1933 and was dead by 1945. Stalin on the other hand continued leading a murderous regime until 1953.

All in all both were horrible and murderous thugs but Hitler was in power shorter time and he also focused on killing non-Germans whereas Stalin kept killing anyone disagreeing with him, Russian or not. There is no pro-Hitler movement in Germany today (except a tiny group of brain-washed rasists) but there are millions of Russians who still think Stalin was a good person.

Moreover, many people still believe in his/soviet version of the history, shockingly to me many of them are Polish, like you Seanus. So in my view, yes, without a doubt Stalin was much worst than Hitler was. Hitler was a Stalin in the making but he never reached his "full potential" (big sarcasm smiley if I had one).

I expect nothing special and when I speak I always speak for myself only. I don't want "to look like" - I just try to express my opinion in discussion. And I think this is the only thing we can do now - to have open discussion for better understanding.

I just not clearly understand what you want - point by point. The crimes we speak about are accepted as crimes by everybody and put to history books as crimes. Many facts are mixed with propaganda - and far not only communists propaganda.

That's what I would ask you Jed....are such massacres by the Soviet Army known in Russia today? Are they talked about? Or is it only the german crimes which are known....

Brat,

Reason why you hear more about German war crimes is because Germans were better educated and sophisticated in documenting everything. It’s a known fact. On the other hand Russian literacy rate before WWII was less than 30%. As a matter of fact this number can not be verified because record keeping in Russia was atrocious before WWII.

I understand you BB. German civilians suffered a lot and many awful crimes were commited against them at the end of war. As I told I am for personal resposibility, not for common - and for Germans too.

I visited Kaliningrad region last year and I didn't like what I found there even now. But what can we do - practical things?

Reason why you hear more about German war crimes is because Germans lost the war and who writes history books.

Havok - that's only part of the reason. The political officers were educated and they did in fact keep very detailed records. Instead it's more about the fact the truth has been supressed for so long. Russians have heard so many glorious things about their military that what they're finding out now us simply shocking and many refuse to believe it. Then you have the new Putinesque type of brain-wash organizations such as Nashi that focus on positive aspects and supress the negative parts of their history. Patriotism turned into blind nationalism.


Could you elaborate please?

Guys, your image of Russia looks for me like you take it from comics for simplicity level.


I don't like to see ethnic cleansing results.

Russia is/was very barbaric nation. Way more vicious than any other country, even now. They have killed their own people in millions for nothing. The only reason why Poland is still standing is because of the western countries. Don’t kid yourself, If it was up to Russian government, most of us would be Russian by now building another Kremlin in Warsaw for free.

Another example of comics reader. The only reason why we are where we are now - because communist ideas failed and Russians turned out of them. And you are still fight in the past war.

They have lost the battle but not the war. look at the big picture. The poor economy of Germany after WWI caused a reaction. Political turmoil, militarization, preparation for the battle of the century…

They are one of the richest countries in Europe 70 years later. They have won imo.

BTW

The history books were not written by Russians. They could not write back then. They have made up most their history during the Stalin era.


What do you think stopped Russia from overtaking the rest of the eastern Europe/Germany for 60 years? Polish spirit?


I seriously doubt they have accurate records of the katyn event.

Just the same way they don't have clear records of how many of their own people died building st. Petersburg. ( And never mind the names of people who died, they were just peasants)


Sometimes things are a lot simpler than you imagine.

I've noticed this pattern with conspiracy theories in a lot of Polish. It's good to analyze, and have a skeptical mind but use it to search for the simplest answers first.

What you say is true.

Since Soviet Russia won WWII and controlled all of Eastern Europe after WWII, it was able to tell big lies about its love affair with Hitler in the first two years of WWII. Soviet Russia was relatively successful at having the world believe its version of history, which is the big lie that Russia only had a Non-Agression-neutrality pact with Nazi Germany. It was much MORE then that. It was a LOVE AFFAIR between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

As per the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Soviet Russia provided ONE MILLION TONS of war aid to Nazi Germany. According to the movie "The Soviet Story", the bombs Nazi Germany dropped on Poland AND BRITAIN were made from Russian war material. The Russians were patting the Nazis on the back when the Nazis were bombing Poland AND BRITAIN.

The Soviet Russians were also using their connections in Europe to SUPPRESS anti-Nazi movements. The affection the Soviet Russians had for Nazi Germany was so crazy, that Soviet Russia was SUPPLYING Nazi Germany with war materials UP UNTIL Nazi Germany attacked Russia.

Russia basically gave Nazi Germany the green light to start WWII.

Here are some video clips showing the Soviet Russians and Nazis meeting each other in Poland after they both invaded Poland and met at a pre-set location in the middle of Poland, as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Notice the back slapping, lighting of cigarettes for each other, huge smiles, hugs, and various other acts of AFFECTION the Soviet Russians are showing the Nazis. They really seemed to love them. And what's not to love, the Nazis allowed them to have half of Poland and Eastern Europe......at least so they thought.

Soviet Russia and Nazi Love affair in the middle of Poland:

Nazi s and Soviet Russiains joyfully working together in Poland
...

Nazis and Soviet Russians greeting each other in Poland showing each other affection
...

Soviet Russian - Nazi joint victory parade in Poland



Nazi and Soviet Russian love affair
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PAPctERefgk

Nazis and Soviet Russians love each other so much they mimic each other
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AtQxrdd9mYI

I agree with your post with one exception. Russia did not give Nazi Germany the green light to start WWII.

Instead, Russia along with Nazi Germany did in fact start WWII by dividing Poland and the Baltic States amongst themselves.

Are you saying that Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia together started WWII? Yeah come to think of it. I think you're right.

That Molotov-Ribbentrop pact they signed basically set the stage for WWII. The Russian people are good people and lost millions of their people fighting the Nazis (although many non-Russians also fought along side them fighting the Nazis) which they deserve credit for, but at the same time they gloss over the first 2 years of WWII where Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were good friends.

Jed - I actually do like and respect the Russian people, I really do. However, for a society to become truly democratic it has to clean itself from the dirt of the past. That process started with Gorbachev, was sped up by Yeltsin and then was pretty much abolished by Putin. To me, Nashi is a much milder, gentler and more politically correct form of PutinJugend.

Putin once said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain” and then he basically turned the Soviet mentality into the Russian nationalism.

I know that Russia will eventually become a true democracy but as long ad Putin is in power that process has been significantly delayed, even stalled.


I see, thanks. My view is not very popular but I feel the same way about Wrocław, but also Lwów. Those are beautiful and great cities but in my view the German population should not have been expelled from Wrocław and neither should've the Polish population been expelled from Lwów.

Both cities would benefit from their diverse population.


Absolutely!

Stalin outsmarted Hitler by invading a few weeks later and portrayed that invasion as protection from the German invasion. An invasion he and Hitler agreed to in the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. Each time I hear someone say WWII started when Germany invaded Poland I always correct them by saying No, it started when Poland was invaded by Germany AND Russia.

Poles need to wake up and start to recognize their own past. Poland and Russia should be friends and will be friends but enough of this Russian perpetuated version of history...

Ironically I learned all this this while studying history in Sweden... Go figure... lol

I also agree with that, it was the Soviet Union ^^
Do you know what Stalin said do the German commies right before Hitler got elected?
"Why are you having an coalition/alliance with the socialists? Their not communists!"
What did that lead to? BB can you enlighten us? ;)

Germans where demonized for decades for what they have done. I agree it was wrong.

but...

The Russian gov have done the most atrocious things and they got away with this with no questions asked. Who is looking for Russian war criminals? Are they any except Stalin? Who was the officer in charge to kill Polish officers in Katyn?

Russia is like this retarded kid that killed your mother but the court ruled he/she is unfit to stand the trial.

The funny part is that they are still at large, and Polish tend to stick with them.
Polish stick with Germans. You’re going to be better off.

But you see, Havok, all three countries compete with one another economically, so it's hard to form alliances when you are trying to attract business and industry. There tends to be insurmountable resentment.

Well, both Nazi-Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland. Germany is a full democracy and as a nation it has paid a tremendous price for atrocites committed by the Nazis. Russia is now finally and barely acknowledging some of the crimes committed by their Soviet henchmen.

That's why, if they have to chose a side, they should stick with Germany.

And what "reality" would that be? That Russia has always been and, by all appearances, still is and will continue to be in the forseeable future, as long as Putin holds power, a two-faced, cunning, treacherous neighbour? Because, like it or not, THAT is the truth.


Right on, finally a comment reflecting an astute grasp of the issue.

Yeah I agree with you here 100%.

Indeed Nazi Germany ANDDDDD Soviet Russia attacked Poland TOGETHER. Soviet Russia attacked a little bit later for the reason you gave. The Soviet Russians didn't want to look as bad as the Nazis so they went through the motion of waiting 17 days after the Nazis invaded.

I agree with you that many people (including Poles) are quite ignorant of the DEEP collaboration of Nazi Germany with Soviet Russia in starting WWII and selfishly dividing Central/Eastern Europe among themselves.

I'm kind of like you. When people tell me that Nazi Germany ran ALL OVER Poland in weeks, I always correct them that....NO Nazi Germany ONLY took over HALF of Poland AND with ONE MILLION TONS of Soviet Russian war material aid WHILE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUSLY Russia was taking the other half.

Its also good to remind people that Poland only had a medium size population of 32 million people while Nazi Germany had 70 MILLION people and Soviet Russia had about 130 MILLION people in the beginning of WWII. Was Poland expected to hold back both these giant nations TOGETHER? (IF Poland had 70 million people these two terrorrist nations would have taken forever to take over Poland considering how good Poles are at underground fighting and taking the fight to those terrorist capitals of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia if need be).

Its also good to remind people that its NO ACCIDENT that much bigger nations like Germany and Russia ALWAYS NEEDED each other to hold down Poland despite being so much bigger then Poland. When Russia attacked Poland in 1918, the Poles beat the Russians back to Moscow. That's because Russia didn't have Germany's help.

Having said this, I also agree with you that today, its good for Poland to try to be friends with Russia and other neighbors as much as possible and let the past be the past, albeit NOT FORGET IT.

Forget the resentment. Germans did. Concentrate on making money fast. Now is the time.


Germany basically used Russians.

They needed Ruskies to control the rural part of Poland which they had absolutely no interest in.

Russians of course considered this to be the best deal ever. One step closer to true Europe!
… reclaiming our lost lands from a few decades ago.

Here is also why
They were always infatuated with the idea of being closer to the civilization. And ... that's why all that love for Germans. You can observe similar patterns now. Except Germans want nothing to do with Russians unless it’s somehow lucrative to them.

People in charge are not so much different than the rest of us. It may seem like an elaborate plan to you all but in fact the whole thing really was about two simple ideas.

Russians wanted to control more of Europe. Germans where pissed off for working hard for all those years and having lost everything after WWI.
and at that time...
essentially brand spanking new Poland was totally unprepared, weak and led by totally clueless government. (1918-1939).
The reason why we had any allies at all was because of a few hundred semi-rich, famous and influential Polish families still living in England and France.

The truth is a lot simpler.

They didn't want to fight Russia head on so they sucker punched them instead.

They try, Havok, but so does Germany, Russia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, not to mention France and Briton. It makes it tougher to make money in such circumstances so people get mad and take it out on each other.

in 1939 southern Poland was just fields, villages, one or two cities and a few roads here and there. No industry at all. Strategize for a second here. If you were Germany how would you control landmass like this knowing you going west next? Russia on the other hand had a lot of experience in controlling massive and useless landmasses. Besides Germans knew Russians would love that idea anyways.

Germans wanted the parts of Poland containing patches of ethnic Germans. What they really wanted was all of Poland subdued because Hitler saw Poland courting favor with Great Britain and worried it would either fall to the Bolsheviks or become an economic powerhouse with help from the west. Either way it spelled doom for Germany who had just been punished by the Treaty of Versailles.