well you never really know the whole story. mwe just hoped it wasnt an inside job or Russia up to something or some Polish people doing this to further damge polish and Russian relationship. we might know we might never know. we all might be shocked to find out in the future. all we can do is just do is guess. never the less it was very sad.
Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia
about 24sec. tape.
can "haze is 8km" be another way of saying that the fog bank is 8km across?
also he says "need" to land can this be him not panicking while something serious had already gone on?
also what is that round orange/red thing on the ground in the beginning video
can "haze is 8km" be another way of saying that the fog bank is 8km across?
also he says "need" to land can this be him not panicking while something serious had already gone on?
also what is that round orange/red thing on the ground in the beginning video
i wouldn't like to feed cospiracy theories with this post
“The pilot was lured to land in the woods...” LMAO, you need to get out more. It's like saying a person who rode a horse was lured to hit a tree. I could fabricate better conspiracy theory on my own. It's like they didn't have a lot of money to work with to create this piece of crap report. "we heard shooting in the woods" ... You guys are about 10 years behind the curve of "mass media fabricating shi*t". Yes I just invented a term.
Come on, wake up Poland!
skysoulmate 13 | 1250
1 May 2010 #364
Kuro - I watched the video and looked into the articles, thanks for posting the video in particular it was an interesting perspective for sure. (My thought here are not necessarily in any chronological order)
Some things that really don't make any sense to me is the h1n1 "hero" status of Poland for not using it - I'm sorry but who cares? Poland lucked out because the spread of it was very limited however had it gone the other way everyone would've been blaming the Polish health ministry for the many deaths. In march of last year I caught the A-flu which the swine flu is based on. I was in Mexico just a week or so earlier and needless to say they did all kinds of tests on me. Despite being in pretty good shape those were some of the worst days of my life. I don't think there was one tiny part of my body that didn't hurt, ache or shivered. I recovered quickly because I took Tamiflu and because I'm in good health overall but not sure how long it'd take if I was older for example...
After this episodes I will NEVER go without being vaccinated again. Of course, I've been vaccinated for all kinds of weird diseases in the past because I travel all over the world...
Anyways, my point here is that Poland is a tiny country and no one really cares about them deciding not to use the vaccine. I think it was irresponsible and they should've let the people themselves decide but that's a different story. I see zero chance of this "controversy" being connected to the Smolensk accident.
The second part that surprised me was all the nonsense about the government refusing to spend money on fighting the recession, the Zloty getting strong, etc. C'mon, all states have disagreements, why would they even mention this here?
To think someone would want to kill all those people simply because the Zloty is too strong or too weak or because they haven't joined the Euro is just ludicrous.
Now, when I was watching those people say - not again, I don't want my grandchildren 70 years from now find out the real truth about the "new" Katyn just like we did about the "old" Katyn - that was understandable to me, I really connected with them there.
(By the way, very impressed with how well versed in English some people were.)
One "theory" really blew my mind. So all those people would've been kidnapped, and taken to Russia, then the airplane flew just with the crew all the way to Smolensk and because some lights are moved the pilot crashed into the trees.
For the sake of our discussion - wasn't this trip sort last minute thing? I don't think it was planned several months in advance (Tusk's visit I believe was). What kind of logistical effort would it take to kidnap that many people and take them to Russia without anyone ever noticing something wasn't right?
The shots we're hearing could very well have been warning shots to scare people off. If there was a major accident at a US air force base and some journalists or whoever got in there would be a very short period from the warning shot to the real shot if people didn't leave immediately.
I've said it all along that the Russians should've invited other agencies asap after this accident or the conspiracies would flourish for ever. There IS a reason for it no doubt. In the past the Russian regime excelled at lying and deceiving so it's no wonder people are so suspicious. The Soviet propaganda machine was simply enormous and overwhelming - dzisiaj Правда jutro Pravda, right? Heck to this day Poles will say that WWII started when Germany invaded Poland which is the Soviet version which of course became the norm. In reality the war started when Germany with the support of the Soviet Union invaded Poland (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the Soviet Union invaded a few weeks after Nazi-Germany. Both of those countries started WWII - not just Germany yet the Soviet propaganda won.
My point is that yes, Russians knew then and know now how to manipulate media and that's why people don't trust them to this day. However, I still don't think this it was a conspiracy and if it was - it was a very good one.
Right after the accident they should've invited other safety agencies to review what happened there. It'd have been a great gesture by the Russian president to allow both Russian but also Polish soldiers to guard the site until the investigators arrived, even let them guard without weapons. It's very possible that Putin meant well when he took over the investigation but I don't think it was a smart move.
In a nutshell some of the comments on the video were very far-fetched but I sort of understand why.
Some things that really don't make any sense to me is the h1n1 "hero" status of Poland for not using it - I'm sorry but who cares? Poland lucked out because the spread of it was very limited however had it gone the other way everyone would've been blaming the Polish health ministry for the many deaths. In march of last year I caught the A-flu which the swine flu is based on. I was in Mexico just a week or so earlier and needless to say they did all kinds of tests on me. Despite being in pretty good shape those were some of the worst days of my life. I don't think there was one tiny part of my body that didn't hurt, ache or shivered. I recovered quickly because I took Tamiflu and because I'm in good health overall but not sure how long it'd take if I was older for example...
After this episodes I will NEVER go without being vaccinated again. Of course, I've been vaccinated for all kinds of weird diseases in the past because I travel all over the world...
Anyways, my point here is that Poland is a tiny country and no one really cares about them deciding not to use the vaccine. I think it was irresponsible and they should've let the people themselves decide but that's a different story. I see zero chance of this "controversy" being connected to the Smolensk accident.
The second part that surprised me was all the nonsense about the government refusing to spend money on fighting the recession, the Zloty getting strong, etc. C'mon, all states have disagreements, why would they even mention this here?
To think someone would want to kill all those people simply because the Zloty is too strong or too weak or because they haven't joined the Euro is just ludicrous.
Now, when I was watching those people say - not again, I don't want my grandchildren 70 years from now find out the real truth about the "new" Katyn just like we did about the "old" Katyn - that was understandable to me, I really connected with them there.
(By the way, very impressed with how well versed in English some people were.)
One "theory" really blew my mind. So all those people would've been kidnapped, and taken to Russia, then the airplane flew just with the crew all the way to Smolensk and because some lights are moved the pilot crashed into the trees.
For the sake of our discussion - wasn't this trip sort last minute thing? I don't think it was planned several months in advance (Tusk's visit I believe was). What kind of logistical effort would it take to kidnap that many people and take them to Russia without anyone ever noticing something wasn't right?
The shots we're hearing could very well have been warning shots to scare people off. If there was a major accident at a US air force base and some journalists or whoever got in there would be a very short period from the warning shot to the real shot if people didn't leave immediately.
I've said it all along that the Russians should've invited other agencies asap after this accident or the conspiracies would flourish for ever. There IS a reason for it no doubt. In the past the Russian regime excelled at lying and deceiving so it's no wonder people are so suspicious. The Soviet propaganda machine was simply enormous and overwhelming - dzisiaj Правда jutro Pravda, right? Heck to this day Poles will say that WWII started when Germany invaded Poland which is the Soviet version which of course became the norm. In reality the war started when Germany with the support of the Soviet Union invaded Poland (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the Soviet Union invaded a few weeks after Nazi-Germany. Both of those countries started WWII - not just Germany yet the Soviet propaganda won.
My point is that yes, Russians knew then and know now how to manipulate media and that's why people don't trust them to this day. However, I still don't think this it was a conspiracy and if it was - it was a very good one.
Right after the accident they should've invited other safety agencies to review what happened there. It'd have been a great gesture by the Russian president to allow both Russian but also Polish soldiers to guard the site until the investigators arrived, even let them guard without weapons. It's very possible that Putin meant well when he took over the investigation but I don't think it was a smart move.
In a nutshell some of the comments on the video were very far-fetched but I sort of understand why.
Some things that really don't make any sense to me is the h1n1 "hero" status of Poland for not using it
I see zero chance of this "controversy" being connected to the Smolensk accident.
To think someone would want to kill all those people simply because the Zloty is too strong or too weak or because they haven't joined the Euro is just ludicrous.
I absolutely agree with those points. However, gas and patriot missiles are an entirely different matter. For instance, just take a look at what's going on in the Ukraine. I predict Poland may have similar troubles ahead.
a 20 year old airplane probably has some 50% "new" components. Know nothing about the Tupolev and the maintenance program but it's really the upkeep that matters, not so much the age.
it was just completely retrofitted and the engines completely rebuilt last summer. i highly doubt it was an issue with the plane itself. where it crashed compared to the runway layout, suggests pilot error to me.
skysoulmate 13 | 1250
1 May 2010 #367
However, gas and patriot missiles are an entirely different matter. For instance, just take a look at what's going on in the Ukraine. I predict Poland may have similar troubles ahead.
Not just Poland Olga. Very slowly Russia is turning the EU into Russian oil/gas addicts. No doubt about it.
The missile shield was the right idea, people didn't like it, Obama caved in but my prediction is that in post-Obama years that shield will happen. Maybe in Poland, maybe in Slovakia or Bulgaria but I think it will.
my prediction is that in post-Obama years that shield will happen
i sure hope so and i hope it's during Obama years still
skysoulmate 13 | 1250
1 May 2010 #369
it was just completely retrofitted and the engines completely rebuilt last summer. i highly doubt it was an issue with the plane itself.
Agree. Talked to a Volga-Dnepr pilot in Tokyo last week and he said that the TU154M was a pretty nice airplane. He had some Boeing 727 time and said it flew similarly to the B727 and if so I'd have liked it too.
i sure hope so and i hope it's during Obama years still
Nope, Obama has already said it's not going to happen. All he's doing is sending some Patriot batteries which is nice but not the original project. He needs the money to grow the government but that's a different story that you and I disagree on... ;)
can "haze is 8km" be another way of saying that the fog bank is 8km across?
I do not hear other side there - may be it really means 0.8 km ("nol'-vosem' kilometra" as it typically said in Russian, but most will prefer to say 800 meters)?
It's clearly stated as 8 km. That's not up for debate.
As I can hear, pilot's russian is not very perfect, and I do not hear other side here.
But anyway, "dymka" in a russian meteorology is term for a not very dense fog, with visibility over 1 km. When visibility is less than 1 km it would say "tuman".
Can anyone confirm that this recording fragment is from this particular flight, and figure out exact time of this record?
But anyway, "dymka" in a russian meteorology is term for a not very dense fog, with visibility over 1 km. When visibility is less than 1 km it would say "tuman".
Can anyone confirm that this recording fragment is from this particular flight, and figure out exact time of this record?
Why Russians did not give the black boxes to the Poland right away? For what reason they were "examinig" them? This was not theirs president, Polish investigators should examine the crash site, not the Russians. The answer is obvious to me. They wanted to falsify the records. To hide the evidence. C'mon, when Russian SU 27 crashed during the air show, on Polish soil, did Poles chased off the Russians from the crash site?
Russians killed Kaczyński, no doubts about that in my mind.
Russians killed Kaczyński, no doubts about that in my mind.
Why Russians did not give the black boxes to the Poland right away?
I believe it is a common practice - to investigate them in the counrtry of crush and where the aircraft was produced. If it is not, why your government and international community keep silence about it?
If Kaczynski was alive, he would not keep silence, that I am sure of. That's why Russians killed him in the first place.
And common practice? What common practice. Commone practice when planes with the president on board crash?
Common practice when the plane crash on the forein soil? I'll ask again. When the Russian SU 27 crashed, did the Poles grab the black box? Or Russians had taken it away, without even showing it to Poles?
And common practice? What common practice. Commone practice when planes with the president on board crash?
Common practice when the plane crash on the forein soil? I'll ask again. When the Russian SU 27 crashed, did the Poles grab the black box? Or Russians had taken it away, without even showing it to Poles?
That's why Russians killed him in the first place.
I think it was an accident.
It doesn't mean we shouldn't be suspicios with this unprecedented crash. But world powers have already accepted this as an accident - and that's all.
Do you like conspiracy theories? OK - here is mine:
If somebody decided to kill him - the possible reason is that he became useless but informed pawn - and dangerous because he could share his information - say as a protest against Ukraine being sold to Russia.
Any idiot can point to Russians and blame them for any s*t on earth - other idiots will just agree without any doubts. We know it and somebody who planned it also knew it.
If somebody decided to kill him - the possible reason is that he became useless but informed pawn - and dangerous because he could share his information - say as a protest against Ukraine being sold to Russia.
As if somebody would have cared ....
Hm... Let's show this to hot ukrainian guys from Galicja or Volyn. ;)
The government didn't get wiped out. In fact, calling the President "government"
I'm not sure where you're heading with this. Are you telling me it's not a big deal to lose a president of the country and stuff like this happens all the time?
Your president is an essential part of the government. Without him and the military chiefs the government cannot act. It's like saying "yeah, this guy had his head cut off but the rest of the body is it tip-top condition.
That's bull crap.
That theory has already been discredited.
That theory has already been discredited.
Please give me the source of where it was discredited. I’m actually interested in reading it.
Fedex has some 35+ year old airplanes, so does Northwest/Delta and Air Force has 40+ year old bomber/tankers.
U.S. Air Force (not including Navy, Army, Coast Guard and Marines ) "has 5,573 manned aircraft in service."
Polish Air Force "consists of roughly 17,000 military personnel and about 200 aircraft , distributed among 12 bases throughout Poland"
Sure, FedEx is transporting mail not the president of the united states.
WTF are you talking about?
The Air Force 1 structure and specs are top-secret. No one knows exactly what's on it or what kind of systems it houses. You only think you know.
That Russian plane was a piece of sh*t.
I believe it is a common practice - to investigate them in the counrtry of crush and where the aircraft was produced. If it is not, why your government and international community keep silence about it?
Sure, but it's the PRESIDENT of a country. That country who's president was in an accident should have the first chance to look at it.
The answer is obvious to me.
Russians killed Kaczyński
Heads are rolling for criticizing the investigation. The coverup is now official:
" We had no support. At my request to the Minister Bogdan Klich , that I do not have an interpreter , I got the answer: < what are you doing there for three days . This you should get him a > . Afterwards Mr Minister Klich referring to its regulation forced me to work directly with the Polish prosecutors. When I said : Mr. Minister , I can not cooperate with the prosecution because the Russian side has a grudge against me , he replied : < I do not accept the message > - tells Edmund Klich .
He thunders at the Polish government for what strategy against the Russians took our administration . Klich believes that we are against them as a supplicant . " Rules are clear . Draft report ( plane crash ) prepares the Russian side , and we have 60 days to respond and that is all. They can recognize these our comments or not " - says Edmund Klich .
Journalists write any old nonsense to sell stories these days. Besides, nobody seems to care anyway. You can show amazingly strong evidence and people just deny it. Things which seem pretty clear to a legally trained person is just brushed aside by those who just believe what they want to.
So, what is the latest on the black boxes? It's all fabrication anyway!
So, what is the latest on the black boxes? It's all fabrication anyway!
Black boxes are still confiscated by Russia ;-)
No doubt Tusk will have forgotten all about it by now. When Komorowski gets in, Tusk will really turn up the heat and cement his power.
I hear that Poles are becoming growingly suspicious and unrest may be brewing.
Well, you come to a certain point at which you have to start believing what they tell you. If you don't, you will get crazy as you see ghosts everywhere and believe simply nothing what they tell you. As as long as nobody of us has access to the archive concerning the investigation, you can do two things: believe it or don't believe it. Either way you will never know if it's the right thing to believe. It's such a waste of time and energy to try to figure out what you will never know for sure. Maybe the official version is the correct one? You don't know. And besides, what good would it do IF it turnes out to be not the truth what they tell you? Do you get more income if you knew in that hypothetical situation?
All I'm saying is that all this conspiracy stuff is just a waste of time and energy; time and energy you could use to do more productive and creative things. Besides that, you would also get pretty embarrassed if it turns out after all that the official version is the correct one.
>^..^<
M-G (but I guess it's a game in all)
All I'm saying is that all this conspiracy stuff is just a waste of time and energy; time and energy you could use to do more productive and creative things. Besides that, you would also get pretty embarrassed if it turns out after all that the official version is the correct one.
>^..^<
M-G (but I guess it's a game in all)
if it turns out after all that the official version is the correct one
And if it turns out to be otherwise? After all, sooner or later, the truth always comes out.
@MareGaea
Is trying to figure out the truth a "waste of time and energy"? Maybe. But it is my time and energy and I am free to waste it, however I will, now isn't it? I also waste my energy and time on collecting stamps and building miniature planes. And trolling internet forums ;-)
When Russians are going give away the black boxes? When they are sure theirs fabrications are flawless at last?
Is trying to figure out the truth a "waste of time and energy"? Maybe. But it is my time and energy and I am free to waste it, however I will, now isn't it? I also waste my energy and time on collecting stamps and building miniature planes. And trolling internet forums ;-)
When Russians are going give away the black boxes? When they are sure theirs fabrications are flawless at last?
All I'm saying is that all this conspiracy stuff is just a waste of time and energy; time and energy you could use to do more productive and creative things. Besides that, you would also get pretty embarrassed if it turns out after all that the official version is the correct one.
You say that like you don't know politics and people. All over the world people will always add their 2 pence to every event, making it more mysterious than it is, especially people who would like it to be as it is in their delusions. All you can do is ignore them.
When Russians are going give away the black boxes?
Poland will be lucky to have them within a year:
While simultaneously in Poland is under investigation by the Military District Prosecutor's Office in Warsaw and works committee accident investigation , the Polish side does not have all the evidence . Polish prosecutors could participate in some activities of the Russian prosecutor's office , for example . Hearings of witnesses , and Colonel Edmund Klich (until recently head of the Polish State Commission on Aircraft Accident Investigation ) is accredited by the Russian commission investigating the disaster. So they have the knowledge, but do not have the source materials .
But, hey, what the hell--that's just fine with everyone here! Noooo, no problems whatsoever, none. Nope, nothing suspicious here--move on. It's all "paranoia"; Russia is Poland's friend--how dare anyone think any different? Give me a bloody break...