Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia

Olga, why did they suspended your account?

I agree, Poland can not trust Russia. They are better off sticking close with Germany.

Because you're not allowed to tell the truth around here.


There is a video (quite difficult to find) of eyewitnesses stating there was little/no fog at the time of the crash and that there were strange sounds coming from the plane's engines, like they were stalling or cutting off. Here: en.rian.ru/video/20100412/158542562.html

Also, read this: huffingtonpost.com/max-kolonko/the-mystery-of-polands-pr_b_ 551223.html

I am not a big fan of the source, but I'm posting it here because this part is precisely what's being reported in Poland:

"According to the largest Polish opinionated daily Rzeczpospolita, Polish Prosecutor General, Andrzej Seremeta, stated that Polish investigators would obtain from Russian authorities "transcripts of cockpit voice recorders, not the voice recorders itself".

This raised eyebrows of some US aviation experts."

I dissected the Russian from the English translation. Go Audacity! anyway Those guys were just simply reporting. They did not insinuate anything. The fog was clearing by the time the plain hit the trees and exploded.

Seriously Olga. I wouldn't bullsh*t you, there is nothing suspicious about this video.

I'm sorry about your account being suspended. My personal opinion is that you should be able to say here anything that you wish.

Except that it appears to completely contradict the "official" Russian version of thick fog and no technical issues, which Russia has been adamantly sticking to.

What difference does it make? Seriously, people here analyzed this unfortunate tragedy over and over.
There are no known suspicions activities other than poor planning, weather conditions and very poor judgment of the pilot. Sh*t like this happens all over the world on daily basis. It just happened that the Polish president on board of the plane.

and that the airport was closed which it wasnt and that the plane circled 4 times do we even know? and hit a comm tower is there a downed tower and LK himself took over the controls, did they even tell them to divert?

If you're logical you would understand already that Russian government had no interest in killing the Polish president. Poland does not pose an imitate threat to Russians. Anything besides this is a speculation. Try to think outside of the box. It will save you form making up all of those conspiracy theories. Personally I think you're a very intelligent lady. If it matters to you, I say I respect you.

Please learn how to step back from this hole in the ground you dug up for yourself. No one really gives a sh*t. It will re-bounce and equalize itself. This is just a stupid forum, there are millions of those out there.

Havok, what's the problem with sb exploring an alternative angle in their free time? Don't be too quick to go down the conspiracy nut road. You just need to use your judgement and identify what is bogus and what isn't. Some conspiracies I've heard are off the wall but I've also seen some really good ones from educated people.

You have to admit that the lack of consistency in the media arouses suspicion and creates red herrings. Also, the contents of the black box were to be released on Apr 22 but they weren't. Now, who really cares for an edited version as that's what we'll get?

thenews.pl/national/artykul130917_whose-was-the-extra-voice-recorded-o n-smolensk-disaster-black-box.html

"In a new development in the investigation into the Smolensk air disaster, it has been revealed that the black box recorder on the doomed TU-154 recorded five voices in the cockpit minutes before it crashed.

The fifth voice did not belong to any of the four members of the crew who were in the cockpit: the pilot, the second pilot, the navigator and the engineer. It might have belonged to a stewardess or a passenger but the Prosecutor’s Office does not want to reveal whose voice it was."

Can I make a guess here? If it would be the voice of a stewardess, I'm sure the Prosecuter's Office would have no problems at all revealing who it was. But, if the voice belongs to someone "more important", well ...

1) There is no evidence the Polish pilot was under pressure to land despite that speculation early on.

QUOTE:
"There has been speculation that the crew were under pressure from those on the plane to land at Smolensk - and that perhaps President Lech Kaczynski himself may have given the final order.

However, Polish officials say there is no evidence to substantiate such claims"

2) There is no evidence the plane made 3 or 4 attempts to land. The plane only made one attempt to land.

QUOTE:
"Some reports said the pilot had attempted up to four landings, though a senior Russian aviation official, Tatyana Anodina, has said that the plane only tried to land once"

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8615169.stm

In other words, at least half of the "explanations" and "reasons" for the crash early on ended up to be false.

Anybody who made attempts to explain the reasons for the crash, within 24 hours of the crash, were misguided to say the least. These plane crashes generally take months to investigate and explain no matter what part of the world they occur in.

Its was too hasty and misguided for Russia WITHIN 24 HOURS to jump into the world media cycle and keep repeating "Pilot error" "Pilot error" "Pilot error" "Pilot error" for the reason of the crash, like a BIG LIE technique where if you repeat something over and over and over and over, and the mass media picks up on it, "then it APPEARS to be a FACT"!

Much of the "information" on this crash is what RUSSIA has reported.

How do we KNOW the Pilot RECEIVED these warnings from the Russian airtower??? Was this CONFIRMED in the black boxes??? The fact that Russia is HOLDING ONTO these black boxes is not a confidence builder in Russian government openess and integrity.

A close-up photo of one of the engine turbines, showing little damage to the blades:

polskaweb.eu/news-galerie/301.html#category

Wouldn't the turbines be expected to have more substantial damage than this, if the engines were operating at full capacity at the time of impact?

An intriguing article, if anyone here can read German:

polskaweb.eu/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3306&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=1021


According to reports, no.

The testimony of the crew who tried to land in Smolensk just before the Tu- 154, can be very important

- We have applied for legal aid to the Russian side of hearing all the witnesses who can help explain the crash of the presidential plane , including the crew of the aircraft Il- 76 - it says " Rom " Mateusz Martyniuk , spokesman for the Prosecutor General's Office in Poland.

A report published yesterday in the Polish daily "Rzeczpospolita" indicates there is no sign that Polish medical examiners were even present during the autopsies (only signed by a Russian medical examiner), and that autopsy protocols weren't followed by the Russian medical examiner. (If you can't read Polish, try translating the page with LiveSearch; it'll butcher the translation, but you'll get the gist of it).

Simple, 1 was 'to be' president, the other was to be EX president, and only few months.

I really admire your energy, is hard to believe is not a full time job, free Khodorovsy movement something like this. It is so clear that you have no interest in Poland or LK, but keep posting different conspiracies theory to attack Russia, strange.

Aren't you presumptious--who are you to day what my interests are? I'm simply stating the facts. The problem you have with that is...?

Don't worry Olga I was able to read those links with a little help from my Polish friends :)

Those are interesting articles.

Especially that one part that said it wasn't clear that the dead bodies died because of Airplane injuries.

Hmmmmm

Rzeczpospolita is straight right wing, so however you wanna see it, it is biased.

That couldn't be further from the truth. There's no shortage of misinformation here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rzeczpospolita_(newspaper)

The alternative in Poland is the anti-Polish, leftist Wyborcza, ever so eager to defend and excuse the communists and their present reincarnation, or transformation, if you prefer. And the constant whinging about antisemitism. Gadzinówka.

That's the left-wing media for you. No matter what country its in.

They generally hate the nation they are in and are quick to sniff out "anti-semitism" anywhere.

The left-wing media in the US loves to be critical of the US and always puts a spotlight and magnifying glass on the slightest hint of anti-semitism. The New York Times is a great example of that. It also sympathizes deeply with Communism/Soviet Union and generally is prejudice against the East European nations that resisted it.

Mediawatch:
Have a look at this:
CBC - The Passionate Eye - The Putin System

One-Third of Russian Militiamen Psychopaths or Alcoholics, Expert Says

That's odd, Olga, as Andrzej Seremet and Zbigniew Rzepa were to have them by 22/04. That was the deal in my understanding. This almost seems like concealment, like they want the issue to be forgotten about.

czar,

What do you think about reports of the Polish police raiding the houses of the people on the plane and their relatives and taking some of their things? Some of these people also had their bank accounts frozen. What do you think about this?

Putin-Tusk alliance.


Odd? Take a look at this:

The first thundered loudly that at his own request we put in the role of supplicant , and we at the mercy of the Russians . Edmund Klich as saying that after the crash of the Tu- 154, in Russia there was great chaos . It took only two weeks to Head of the State Commission on Aircraft Accident Investigation radically changed his mind. It may not say enough about the Russians for organizing the work and progress in the investigation . Or so the Russians themselves . With journalists Klich not talking .

This is the guy who had the harshest words yet for this farce of an investigation; now he's done a complete 180.

thenews.pl/national/artykul130917_whose-was-the-extra-voice-recorded-on-smolensk-disaster-black-box.html
this is quite interesting and will arouse suspicion. A fifth voice was heard.

Have any credible links on houses being raided? It's already been explained why the accounts were frozen.


Which eye witnesses? It seems that most people were saying that there was fairly thick fog.

The weather data backs this up as well, unless of course, CNN was participating in the cover up almost from the first hour.

Actually - I was driving home last night and was suddenly enveloped in thick fog out of seemingly nowhere. For about a kilometre, there was really thick fog - visibility maybe around 200m or so. Yet it lifted as quickly as it came - and people believe that such a thing was impossible at Smolensk?

I'm still waiting for Olga and her kin to produce one credible shred of evidence to suggest that this was murder and not a tragic accident.

This fifth voice had no bearing on the crash, and Klich knew of this voice early on and only from black box transcripts:
wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,7858235,E__Klich__Glos_piatej_osoby_pojawil_sie_dlugo_przed.html
tvn24.pl/12690,1655478,0,1,wiadomo-kto-wszedl-do-kokpitu,wiadomosc.html

Meanwhile, Tusk has outright said that he cannot and will not do anything to enable Poland to actively participate in the investigation or have direct access to evidence:

wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,119674,title,Nie-moge-i-nie-chce-wplywac-na-sledztwo,wid,12246120,wiadomosc_prasa.html

This will give you a clearer picture of why any information put out from the Russian side should be considered highly suspect and manipulative:
youtube.com/watch?v=O_vsaPEajh0

Meanwhile, the crash site is still not secured:
wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,119674,title,Milicja-czuwa-ale-i-tak-kazdy-wchodzi-na-miejsce-katastrofy,wid,12246174,wiadomosc.html

As things stand, months will likely pass before Poland receives the black boxes:
rp.pl/artykul/460202,472605_Zla_jakosc_nagran_opoznia_sledztwo.html

Is that enough info for you, delphiandomine? Or can you not draw your own conclusions?

Would this be because Tusk wants the investigation to be independent of politics, and that in fact, a man chosen by Kaczynski is in charge?

Or are you also suggesting that a Kaczynski man is actually a Tusk puppet?

Here's a question : Poland has sole custody of a 3rd black box, used by the Polish military. Are you really going to tell me and everyone else that the Polish military is participating in a cover up to help Russians?

Tusk is NOT Kaczynski's man... where do you get your information from? They from 2 different parties and Tusk OPENLY HATED Kaczynski!
Poland didn't receive the third black box from Russia until 2 weeks after the crash... this black box does not contain any voice recordings, only flight parameter such as altitude, speed, etc.

Meanwhile, the amateur shooting video has been deemed authentic by video analysts from Poland's Central Criminology lab:

Also, see the last link in post #676--video of witnesses stating that there was no fog and the plane was experiencing engine trouble.

Here is the digitally enhanced version of the video:

I said that Kaczynski's man is leading the Polish side of things. Or is my language too difficult for your conspiracy-filled brain?


Yes, which any good investigator will be able to tell a significant amount from.


Russia couldn't do anything with it regardless. They don't have the know-how or ability to tamper with it - as has been previous stated on here, the Poles will be using AES as a minimum for military hardware.


Digitally enhanced and thus tampered with? :) Well done, you've just shown us that the conspiracy theorists are actually tampering with the video!


From your link.


The black box that the Poles have will tell us quite comprehensively about whether or not the plane had engine problems - unless you're suggesting that the Russians are capable of breaking AES encryption AND that they're capable of leaving no traces of this. If so, then NATO is quite frankly ******.

Won't be able to confirm traffic control exchanges or whether or not the pilots indicated instrument failure--in other words, NOT a significant amount.


You know that for a fact? How?


Notice that all versions, regardles of enhancements, are all identical to one another.


Incorrect. This box did not have that capability, and was therefore not constructed to the standards of the other black boxes and, as such, is not designed to withstand severe impact.




delphiandomine:
en.rian.ru/video/20100412/158542562.html

There are more than enough reasons for doubt.