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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


cms neuf - | 1,600
13 Jul 2020 #241
I have a British one - there are no English passports
dolnoslask 6 | 3,074
13 Jul 2020 #242
there are no English passports

Yes there is logic everyone knows that this is all based on place of birth ... so

Born in wales = welsh
Born in England English
Born in Northern Ireland Irish.
Born in scutland scutter.

Born outside of Britain = migrant.

So there you have it , that's the way it works.
tesco
14 Jul 2020 #243
@dolnoslask
Where were you born ?
gumishu 11 | 5,740
14 Jul 2020 #244
to vote for The Duda and help him secure a victory

thanks for your help Dirk
OP pawian 178 | 16,078
21 Jul 2020 #245
The meeting has ended, Poland managed to negotiate a good deal, will get 160 billion. There is a little problem with the interpretation of the rule of law which the EU has discussed for a few years in reference to Poland and Hungary. The resolution approved at the end is so vague that all sides claim their victory. The Polish government insist they are not bound by this regulation while European leaders suggest the opposite.

See for yourself and tell us how you understand it:



dolnoslask 6 | 3,074
21 Jul 2020 #246
Poland managed to negotiate a good deal, will get 160 billion.

Well done the current government of Poland, the people chose well.
gumishu 11 | 5,740
21 Jul 2020 #247
it looks bad, pawian - I don't know why PiS claimed success
OP pawian 178 | 16,078
21 Jul 2020 #248
Yes, everybody claims success coz the resolution text is so beaten around the bush. I included that text about the rule of law for native speakers to judge coz I am not sure myself what to think of it.
cms neuf - | 1,600
21 Jul 2020 #249
I don't think it's vague - it clearly states that the funding is conditional on the rule of law and sets up a mechanism to monitor that.

Financially it's a good deal but comes with responsibility
OP pawian 178 | 16,078
21 Jul 2020 #250
Yes, but what criteria will be used to decide if the rule of law is broken or not.
gumishu 11 | 5,740
21 Jul 2020 #251
if the rule of law is broken or not.

qualified majority, sadly
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
21 Jul 2020 #252
The murmurings I've read online suggest that the plan is to remove national goverments from allocating funding, with it being given to local/provincial governments and NGOs instead.

Poland actually isn't really the issue (abuse of EU funds isn't widespread here), but rather Hungary, where they've been massively misused to put money into the pockets of Orban-linked construction companies.
OP pawian 178 | 16,078
21 Jul 2020 #253
So, now the question is: will PiS proceed with their controvercial reforms against European law, risking the loss of funds? Or will they relinquish undemocratic changes to get the money?

Tough or moderate approach, that is the fascinating dilemma for them now.
Crow 150 | 9,540
21 Jul 2020 #254
So, now the question is: will PiS proceed with their controvercial reforms against European law, risking the loss of funds?

What funds? Look Serbia. Isn`t member of EU and best economy in Europe.

What is with you Poles? You afraid to be independent?
Spike31 2 | 2,398
21 Jul 2020 #255
will PiS proceed with their controvercial reforms against European law, risking the loss of funds?

#1 There is nothing controversial about Polish judicial reforms - as long as you're not a commie judge or their advocate - and the EU has nothing to do with it. Which was proved by German High Court in Karlsruhe twice already

#2 I read few articles about those recent negotiations and Poland not didn't signed a [economically destructive] "CO2 neutrality" bill but also those very vague remarks about "rule of law" were watered down in order to pass the bill without futher delay. And Poland + Hungary will be able to block it in European Council, which require unanimous decision (all votes in favour minus 1 accused member) in order to punish an EU member, just like before. So nothing new here

#3 In 8-10 years from now, which means very soon after this 7 year EU budget which was passed already, Poland will become a net payer to the EU budget
mafketis 29 | 9,861
22 Jul 2020 #256
as long as you're not a commie judge

Though being an unrepentant commie prosecutor is just fine!

It's about single party control and nothing else.
cms neuf - | 1,600
22 Jul 2020 #257
This is different Spike - the decisions will be made by majority, not unanimity - so Hungary and Poland will need to sign up 3-4 more selfish whack jobs to block it,

Very doubtful that Poland will be a net payer even within 15 years. And it is not a permanent status - several countries have been net payers but occasionally slipped back to be net recipients - like Spain and Italy

Increasing wealth is not a one way process - it needs sound management of the economy and long term planning, Italy became wealthier than Britain at one pint but then a decade of weak growth pulled it back and many of the same problems can affect Poland - party cronyism, a clear geographical divide in the country, not modernising the education system etc.
Spike31 2 | 2,398
22 Jul 2020 #258
@cmf_beuf

And it is not a permanent status

Poland is the only European country which has achieved a continous economic growth for the last 3 decades. So I wouldn't worry about that

so Hungary and Poland will need to sign up 3-4 more selfish whack jobs to block it

There was a political support from Latvia and Slovenia during the summit againts the condition of so called "rule of law". They are justifiably concerned that this tool may be used to discipline anyone who transgresses against Brussels in the future. And many more will open their eyes that the "rule of law" is simply a punishment for overstepping an unofficial doctrine of the EU which is neomarxism (all those "legal" problems have started when Poland refused to take in so called muslim "refugees")

And I think there are more ways of creating divisions between EU countries.
I'm not trying to hide it that Polexit and especially a deconstruction of the EU and replacing it with simple trade agreements would be benefitial for Poland. So the more we damage this corrupted neomarxist institution the better for us.

This way or another a common borowing scheme in times of crisis will be the EU economic downfall. From now on Germany will have no excuse for not pumping taxpayer's money and financial reserves into Spain, Italy and Greece which are in a permanent economic crisis...

"The European Union's agreement on a coronavirus recovery fund is likely to embolden nationalist leaders in Poland and Hungary because it sets no mechanism for tying the disbursement of money to democratic norms."

nytimes.com/reuters/2020/07/21/world/europe/21reuters-eu-summit-easteurope-rule-of-law-analysis.html
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,765
23 Jul 2020 #259
@Spike31

The funny thing is how the EU is so powerless to do anything to Poland and Hungary. Even recently they tried to punish Poland and Hungary by decreasing the amount of funds they receive, so they threatened to veto the bill and of course the EU caved. All the EU can do is give Poland and Hungary verbal reprimands for not allowing turd worlders to flood the country or forcing LGBT down the citizens' throats. Recently, one of the PiS leaders said that under no circumstances will they allow gay marraige. EU complained, but ultimately they have absolutely no power to do anything about it or back up their threats.
Spike31 2 | 2,398
23 Jul 2020 #260
so they threatened to veto the bill and of course the EU caved

Because most of the UE countries needed those emergency funds much more than Poland does. Chinese flu crisis had much less impact on Polish economy with healthy banking system (no toxic debts) and a more diversified industrial sector than, let's say, Italian, Spanish or even German economy.
gumishu 11 | 5,740
23 Jul 2020 #261
even German economy.

now you are kidding
Spike31 2 | 2,398
23 Jul 2020 #262
Not at all. Germany has some substantial financial reserves but their economy will shrink greatly this year.
The German GDP will shrink by 6.5% this year that is by ~ 250 billion $. That's an $ equivalent of a whole economy of Finland.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-economy/german-economy-to-shrink-by-6-5-this-year-due-to-coronavirus-economic-advisers-idUKKBN23U1FC
gumishu 11 | 5,740
23 Jul 2020 #263
Not at all.

do you maintain that Germany has less diversified industry sector than Poland - think again then
Spike31 2 | 2,398
23 Jul 2020 #264
do you maintain that Germany has less diversified industry

I do. German industrial sector is much bigger than Polish industry but it is mostly based on, and built around, automotive industry.
cms neuf - | 1,600
23 Jul 2020 #265
That is complete nonsense.
Spike31 2 | 2,398
23 Jul 2020 #266
A structure of German export. Blue squares on the left are branches of automotive industry



cms neuf - | 1,600
23 Jul 2020 #267
9 percent cars, a few percent trucks and OEM.

85 percent other things.

And anyway this chart is only export - it ignores important industry focused on domestic consumption
Spike31 2 | 2,398
23 Jul 2020 #268
85 percent other things.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_Germany

And anyway this chart is only export - it ignores important industry focused on domestic consumption

Will COVID-19 turn Germany's export-oriented economy into a weakness?

euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/will-covid-19-turn-germanys-export-oriented-economy-into-a-weakness/





cms neuf - | 1,600
23 Jul 2020 #269
That chart is only the top 30. Not everything

Do they really export more blood than beer ?
Tacitus 2 | 1,337
23 Jul 2020 #270
Keep in mind that this article is from March, when it was yet unclear how fast Germany and the EU would response to the crisis.

There is now reason to believe that Germany might master the crisis better than other countries, though it will - like all mayor economies - no doubt be severely affected by it.

nytimes.com/2020/07/19/opinion/coronavirus-germany-economy.html

All the money Germany saved up under Schäuble might now come in handy.


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