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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
23 Jul 2020 #271
As long as Germany pays enough money to foreign economies so they still have enough money to buy german products it won't get to bad...me thinks...
Spike31 3 | 1,813
23 Jul 2020 #272
Germany's biggest export partner is the US which has indroduced a second batch of North Stream sanctions. Merkel wants to answer with counter- sanctions against the US. I think I don't have to explain that Germany is holding a losing hand against the US
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
23 Jul 2020 #273
By now it's mainly only Merkel (and Schröder) still clinging to Nord Stream....

But you are overestimating these sanctions...it's mainly a blow to the building companies who invested their money into this project...not so much Germany or it's economy.

If there will be counter-sanctions it probably will be through the EU!

....Although the pipeline in question leads from Russia to Germany, four other nations - all of them EU members - are co-financing the project, as the gas is also to be supplied to the Czech Republic and many other European countries - hence the demand for the European Commission to get involved in the spat....

dw.com/en/can-nord-stream-2-pipeline-still-be-completed-despite-us-sanctions/a-53853919

PS: Germany's biggest export market is still China...hence the embarassing silence on Hongkong etc....

Germany Exports by Country

China 7158364.00EUR Billion

United States 6473340.00EUR Billion

France 6128995.00EUR Billion

Spike31 3 | 1,813
23 Jul 2020 #274
My source points to the US as #1
worldstopexports.com/germanys-top-import-partners/
And Poland is #7 (2.5 times as much economic exchange as with Russia)

And still, Germany is constantly making political deals with Russia over Poland's head and against the best interest of Poland (North stream I and II, exclusion from Minsk format) .

That just had to end like it ended by creating a deep division. And it's only just the beginning.
Tacitus 2 | 1,031
23 Jul 2020 #275
exclusion from Minsk format

By the same logic, they also excluded the USA, Turkey and the UK. Which is a ridiculous notion.

You could have tried to include all those countries since they are either neighbours or signatory powers of the Budapest memorandum, but it is clear that Russia would have never agreed to such a constellation that would leave itself so vastly outnumbered.

The Ukraine asked Germany and specifically Merkel for help, since she is known to be a skilled negotiator and and as the only Western politician that Putin takes seriously. Merkel than asked Hollande for assistance, since it can for historically reason not negotiate in such a delicate constellation. As such Merkel could play the honest broker and did in fact achieve a significant success with Minsk II.

Poland was never in consideration, since it both lacked the influence on Russia and was seen as far to hostile to Russia to act in good faith. Though Berlin and Paris did try to include Poland into their East European strategy via the Weimar triangle, and they consult them frequently on Russia and the Ukraine while Poland was governed by PO. But sadly, PiS was fully succesful with their attempts to self-isolate Poland and thus Poland has lost most of its' pre-2015 influence.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
23 Jul 2020 #276
And still, Germany is constantly making political deals with Russia over Poland's head and against the best interest of Poland

Na ja, Germany is also the biggest voice to keep up the sanctions against Russia...if it would be only Poland asking for them there wouldn't be any repercussions for Putin's misbehaviour at all, I fear....even Polands bestie Hungary likes to suck up to Moscow!

...Overall, three types of sanctions were imposed: ban on provision of technology for oil and gas exploration, ban on provision of credits to Russian oil companies and state banks, travel restrictions on the influential Russian citizens close to President Putin and involved in the annexation of Crimea....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

Germany expects EU sanctions against Russia to be extended

reuters.com/article/us-germany-eu-briefing/germany-expects-eu-sanctions-against-russia-to-be-extended-idUSKBN23P1J8

Germany Wants E.U. to Sanction Head of Russian Military Intelligence

nytimes.com/2020/05/28/world/europe/germany-russia-cyberattack-sanctions.html

Germany to seek EU sanctions on Russia over cyberattack

aa.com.tr/en/europe/germany-to-seek-eu-sanctions-on-russia-over-cyberattack/1856420
Tacitus 2 | 1,031
23 Jul 2020 #277
Germany is also the biggest voice to keep up the sanctions against Russia.

That is indeed something that gets conveniently overlooked. If not for Germany, there would not have been any coordinated response to Russia's agression towards the Ukraine, since many countries like Hungary, Greece and Italy just wanted to resume buisness as usual. Even France is not longer really in favour of them. Those sanctions would have been lifted long time ago if not for Berlin's insistence to first see a peace in Ukraine.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
23 Jul 2020 #278
*nods*

Not to mention that many Germans protest these sanctions too....entrepreneurs who are losing out on lotsa good business with Russia but also the political left who always had a soft spot for the dictators in the Kreml...
Tacitus 2 | 1,031
23 Jul 2020 #279
And the political right with the AfD who are selling out to Russia.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
23 Jul 2020 #280
Can I ask - where do the FDP stand on the issue of Russia?
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
23 Jul 2020 #281
And the political right with the AfD who are selling out to Russia.

That too....

Can I ask - where do the FDP stand on the issue of Russia?

Last October the Bundestag decided about the continuation of the sanctions against Russia:

Against: LINKE

Pro: CDU, CSU, Bündins 90/Grüne and the FDP

Abstinence: AfD

bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2019/kw43-de-russlandsanktionen-663296
Zlatko
24 Jul 2020 #282
One day when the German wellfare state collapses Poland will have to build a wall against the influx of immigrants (the ones who never assimilate and force their customs on locals). Poles must build a wall with Germany asap.

Best thing for Poland is to leave the EU or keep refusing Muslim immigration until you get kicked out and also embrace capitalism. Increase spending on defence because let's be honest, Poland is in an awful place geographically and in proximity. Maybe increase ties with Hungary and Austria.

Losing part of your workforce to the uk was a mistake. Keep your labour, build a strong trade and diplomatic relationship with the uk and usa and prosper.
Poloniusz 2 | 63
24 Jul 2020 #283
Everyone hates the EU.

In 2018 Trump downgraded the EU's delegation in Washington DC from a previously held status equivalent to that of a national embassy to merely an international organization.

And in classic Trump style he didn't even tell the EU in advance he was going to do this.

And here is the opinion from within the EU itself:


Tacitus 2 | 1,031
24 Jul 2020 #285
Trump hates everything and everyone that is successful and not him. Thus the EU can consider this a badge of honor ;)

It is also too bad that the EU is the such a powerful beacon of democracy und civilization. If it were a dictatorship, no doubt Trump would love it.
cms neuf - | 1,755
24 Jul 2020 #286
I don't see too many EU citizens thinking they would be better off living in Russia.
Spike31 3 | 1,813
24 Jul 2020 #287
far to hostile to Russia to act in good faith

Poland have a realistic stance towards Russia. It may seem as "hostile" to Western Europe (except Britain) since those countries traditionally have a very naive perception of Russia.

the only Western politician that Putin takes seriously

Not really. Putin plays Merkel and sets her against the other EU members since it is very convenient for Russia to talk to, and to make a deal with, just one person instead of having to make a deal with all of the CEE leaders involved.

It's the same case with NS2 which was a bilateral deal between Russian and Germany against the best interest of Poland and Baltic states.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
24 Jul 2020 #288
...what about the sanctions against Russia? I doubt they would exist without Merkel...
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
24 Jul 2020 #289
@BB
Don't give Putin any "funny" ideas
First and foremost, there would be no sanctions without "flagless" soldiers being in eastern Ukraine.

Germany Sees all EU states east of it as a prestige project V.S. France having south-western states as her prestige project as they both lobbied for different members to join the E.U

I am not sure if Germany ever had ambitions of including Russia in to NATO or EU, but I guess it was a rather harsh wake up call cause of Ukraine-conflict, despite "warmongering" Poland's warnings
Spike31 3 | 1,813
24 Jul 2020 #290
Kudos to her. Merkel can do something right from time to time. The sanctions were imposed by both: the US and the EU as a whole. She wouldn't do it without the US backing. That was the year 2014, a pre-Trump, pre-"refugees" crisis, pre-PiS, and Duda times. Ancient times by now.

How Europe and the world have changed over the last 5 years is simply unbelievable.
Especially since the most of those changes have benefited Poland in one way or another:

> refugees crisis which was a disaster for Western Europe has paved the way for right-wing politics in Poland and consolidated the V4
> Russo-Ukrainian war ostracized Russia both politically and economically and strenghten the bond between Poland and the US and gave a second life to a 3 Seas Innitiative

> North Stream II initiated Baltic Pipe project which will make Poland independent from Russian gas, or a German gas from Russian sources. It has also made Poland and the US act as one against it.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
24 Jul 2020 #291
She wouldn't do it without the US backing.

The german decision about the continuation of said sanctions was in October 2019....I doubt Merkel had (or needed) Trumps backing for that!

Trump really prefers to do business with Russia....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_projects_of_Donald_Trump_in_Russia

It has also made Poland and the US act as one against it.

I wish she would let it go too....To much hassle for what gain? Nord Stream is a like investing in coal and building new coal mines....as we need to invest in clean energy instead.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
24 Jul 2020 #292
I am not sure if Germany ever had ambitions of including Russia in to NATO or EU,

Not really, no!

The only other option (not viable though) had been Germany becoming neutral, out of EU and especially out of NATO...but our friends and neighbours (also the US) protested heavily, so I heard.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
24 Jul 2020 #293
@BB
Germany is in an ideal situation right now, can focus with minimal effort on military as it has allies around herself and focus maximally on economy...

Just compare it with international sitation for Germany pre-ww1, pre-ww2 and now...
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
24 Jul 2020 #294
Germany is in an ideal situation right now,

It's paid for with BILLIONS!
Crow 139 | 8,302
24 Jul 2020 #295
Germany is in an ideal situation right now

What a mockery.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
24 Jul 2020 #296
@Crow
I guess, you prefer to be surroundedby hostile countries Crow?
Spike31 3 | 1,813
24 Jul 2020 #297
we need to invest in clean energy instead.

To invest in modern nuclear energy right now and in fusion power in the future that would be the best solution for Poland. That's the way I see it. The first step was made already

thefirstnews.com/article/duda-trump-announce-nuclear-energy-deal-13601

I've mentioned earlier that a modern German cultural impact on Poland is almost non-existent. My younger cousin has sent me this music video. So there is one Polish band inspired by German happy hardcore

youtube.com/watch?v=wiJKvhc6-90&ab_channel=LemonRecords
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
24 Jul 2020 #298
I've mentioned earlier that a modern German cultural impact on Poland is almost non-existent.

.....and that seems mightily important to you! :)

(Not that I think Germany has much cultural impact on modern Germany either...it's to americanized for that. A fate Poland will surely befall too in time!)

So...say.....what do you think of Merkel standing by these sanctions against Russia even without Trump's backing?
Tacitus 2 | 1,031
24 Jul 2020 #299
changes have benefited Poland in one way or another:

You could not be more wrong. Poland is one of the biggest geopolitical losers of the last five years.

PiS has succesfully isolated itself from Western Europe, and its' incredibly short-sighted position in the refugee crisis has antognized Southeen Europe. It has since not played any role in European politics.

Poland lost one of its' biggest allies with Brexit.

Trump's presidency will have serious long-term consequences for the American commitment to Europe. Especially of he wins another term it is entirely possible that he will take the USA out of Nato. Not to mention his huge sympathies for Putin.

Poland stands now without any mayor allies that would support them.
Crow 139 | 8,302
24 Jul 2020 #300
I guess, you prefer to be surroundedby hostile countries Crow?

What choice one have if others decide to steal his history, his people, his soul, his culture, his resources. What one can do if others decided to erase him. What if can`t reason them. Its not his choice. No choice in it. One can only stood and resist and hit back, make sure that no matter many lost battles, at the end, he win the war they gave him.


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