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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Dec 2015 #241
The only enemy is you, given that you've repeatedly expressed the desire to murder people for their views.

I'm merely advocating for a system where punishment fits a crime. Alas you are enemy of independent Poland.

There's nothing wrong with protesting a "legtimiate government" if people disagree with their policies.

I wouldn't say this is an accurate description of what is going on at the moment. I would even go that far as to say to you are either clueless or biased.

From my point of view, the ones actively working to subvert the rule of law are the enemies.

Your point of view seems to be very limited and narrow, personal connections perhaps?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
8 Dec 2015 #242
Alas you are enemy of independent Poland.

Your definition of an enemy is very strange, given that I merely wish for the Constitution to be respected and not ignored by a bunch of arrogant ex-PRL elites.

I would even go that far as to say to you are either clueless or biased.

Why is everyone opposed to PiS "clueless" or "biased" in your eyes?

Don't worry Ironside. When the time comes, we'll take back power, and we'll even forgive you.
Harry
8 Dec 2015 #243
it will be our turn

When you say "our", which 'us' are you referring to? People who have zero respect for the constitution and the same amount of interest in living in Poland?

it won't be ballot and bill but more direct means.

You can't do anything directly in Poland from where you are, and what you propose is entirely unconstitutional and thus will be opposed by the overwhelming majority of Poles and other people who do choose to live here.
smurf 39 | 1,981
8 Dec 2015 #244
You those immigrants that hate migrants to their own country even though they've left that country?
Do they have the word 'irony' in their limited lexicon?

"I'm a nationalist immigrant, a patriotic immigrant." said Lukasz, a plumber, engaged to Londoner, 19-year-old hairdresser Chantelle.
"I came to London because the the good money I can make, and the football it better here too. Y'know" he sighs "I just don't get how migrants to Poland can be successful there? I couldn't, I had to leave, but these guys, they go there and they take jobs that should be mine, and our women."

Somewhere in Canada Alanis Morissette begins writing a sequel album to Jagged Little Pill.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Dec 2015 #245
Why is everyone opposed to PiS "clueless" or "biased" in your eyes?

I'm not talking to you anymore boy, you are repeating that all the time when you have nothing to say. Which is very often indeed.

When you say "our", which 'us' are you referring to?

People who have no respect for (edited) supporting them.

thus will be opposed by the overwhelming majority of Poles

Blah blah , overwhelming majority of Poles do not support you and your little cronies anti-Polish actions, combined with ratting on Poland to foreign countries and institutions. Traitors!
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
8 Dec 2015 #246
Define "foreign"

Indeed, I didn't express myself clear enough, what I meant were European mainstream media, such as FAZ, The Economist and so on and "Polish" (often foreign owned) mainstream media, Newsweek Polska etc.

There is a ruling elite class that has no allegiance to any country (no matter where they happen to be located at any given time).

That's largely true, however EU's "ruling elite class" is much, much more composed of Germans than Poles and even If these Germans personally don't give a damn about German national interests (I think many do not but some do) they have connections and obligations to German business, that's one thing... another is that Germany is the largest member state of EU (or "Europe" as they call it...) by economy, population etc. So once you turn the whole thing into a superstate (which is happening step by step) logically you need to care more about the most important components... That's why for instance ECB's policy is tailored much more for Germany than for let's say Portugal hence the crisis had been basically "exported" from the core countries to peripheral ones.

They're absolutely terrified.

Sometimes I think the ESL industry is doing not so well that you need to supplement your income with writing these... posts...

I couldn't, I had to leave, but these guys, they go there and they take jobs that should be mine, and our women

You mean your kindergarten career ?

Interesting to note that the EC are already talking about the process of suspending Poland's EU rights, isn't it.

Yes, the EC, an unelected body, will be "defending democracy" in Poland, which is allegedly threatened by the government formed by the Parliament, elected democratically several weeks ago and the President, directly elected several months ago. Isn't it beautiful :)))) ?
Legal Eagle
8 Dec 2015 #247
EU meddling in Poland's domestic politics will cement PO and Donald Tusk and Elżbieta Bieńkowska's role in Polish history as another group that betrayed Poland's national interests to foreign influence in the EU's neoliberal race to the bottom. Bring it on!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
8 Dec 2015 #248
a petition for him to be fired from UJ

And he is also being badmouthed by Michnik and Lis, Schetyna and Miller...the PO hate industry is turning over in top gear and spreading the venom worldwide to the EU, FAZ, Economist, CNN, etc. Trying to improve their image in the eyes of their foreign sponmsoring masters PO seem to be saying: "OK, so we lost the election but do take note of how we are constantly needling, attacking, undermining and sabotaging the democratcially elected president as well as harrassing and destabilising the government at every turn of the way!"
Borsukrates
8 Dec 2015 #249
elected democratically

Russian Federation is formally a democracy, too, like Belarus and China. There is a simple criteria for distinguishing democracy from dictatorship:
- if you can remove government without use of violence, it's a democracy (republic)
- if you can't remove government withotu violence, it's dictatorship (or tyranny)
PiS is moving towards the second. It's taking over courts and mixes state with Church. That's why it's called Pislam. Islamic countries are known for mixing state, religion and courts.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
8 Dec 2015 #250
And he is also being badmouthed by Michnik and Lis, Schetyna and Miller...

Poor Duda, poor government. They abused and insulted PO for 8 years, and now the tables have been turned, they can't handle one single protest movement.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Dec 2015 #251
PiS is moving towards the second

Moving? Everything what is living is moving but to make a claim like that you need facts and fact is that PiS have four years before another election. What you implying is your subjective feeling and serious people need more than that to act in the matters of state.

Making unfounded allegation basing it on your guts is calling BS at best and lies or slander at most.
If that concern your country and you are telling lies about your country government it is considered disloyalty at best and treason at worsts. Which one are you?>

It's taking over courts and mixes state with Church.

You must be mixing something strong and illegal to spout such a language fantasy. Would you care to provide examples of aforementioned transgressions?

That's why it's called Pislam

Nope that is called hysteria of losers, people who cannot believe that have lost democratic election and are throwing a hissy fit.

Islamic countries are known for mixing state, religion and courts.

PO supports are know for mixing drugs, alcohol, dilettantism and a heady disregard for democracy.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
8 Dec 2015 #252
and fact is that PiS have four years before another election.

Optimistic, aren't you?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
9 Dec 2015 #253
Yes, because as we all know, with hundreds of your "PiS will never win !!!!11111" posts here over past months, you are the most realistic person ever :))))))

if you can't remove government without violence, it's dictatorship (or tyranny)

Yes... just like in 2007... it took a bloody civil war... because it wasn't possible to "remove their government without violence" :))))
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #254
insulted PO

There's a huge difference between a façade grouping like sponsored lobbyist PO serving foreign banksters and other outside interests, and a genuine, indigenous political party like PiS. Say what you will about how clumsy, unglib, un-image-obsessed and ham-handed PiS are, but at least they're not on the leash of any outside force.

if you can remove government without use of violence

A nice and catchy saying but totally untrue. Millions of Americans would love to remove Obama but are powerless to do so using democratic means. Peaceful protests outside the White House? A petition drive? A referendum? Impeachment?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
9 Dec 2015 #255
I would have no issue whatsoever with PiS had the party followed the TK (Duda swore in the three who's selection was ruled to be constitutionally sound) and then the first two of the PiS selected candidates that Duda swore in.

That's called rule of law.

The iron test: Would you support what PiS is doing (now) if PO (or any other party) were doing it?

That is, are you supporting what PiS is doing because they're PiS or because of legitimate rule of law considerations? Everything else is irrelevant.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #256
Merged:TK farce continues apace

The TK farce conitnues. That lofty "independent" and "impartial" communist-created body, headed by ex-PZPR member Rzepliński and stacked with PO appontees, are citing paragraphs, points and subpoints in favour of their PO mentor-sponsors. What is the most farcical of all is that the TK are deliberating and ruling in a case to which they are a party. It's like a murder trial where the accused murderer takes his place on the judge's bench and rules on whether or not he's guilty!

In the current untypical case, where the TK itself is directly involved in the row, the Supreme Court or some ad hoc judicial panel appointed by the High Court should preside over the case.

if PO were doing it?

The blind PO toadies would support the ones providing the kickbacks no matter what. The PO can do no wrong, and that attitude is not surprising when one is lobbyist on the take.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
9 Dec 2015 #257
PO toadies would support the ones providing the kickbacks no matter what

You're not answering the question.

that attitude is not surprising when one is lobbyist on the take.

Is that an insinuation?

Answer the question, would you be comfortable if a party you don't like that was doing what PiS is doing now?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #258
PiS

PiS hard barely won the election when the Michnikites and frustrated PO losers pounced on them wtih unrestrained fury. They hadn't had time to do anything yet but we heard accusations such as "faszyzacja", creeping dictatorship, etc. Szydło spoke without wrapping herself in an EU flag, Macierewicz became defence minister, State Forests went into the "wrong" hands, an ex-PZPR member was appointed to something (ironic coming from PO, the most ex-commie-riddled of any party now in the Sejm!), etc., etc., ad nauseam. One of your PO lobbyist mate (Delph probably) suggested that the whole TK things was a trap deliberately set by PO which PiS stupidly fell into.

The bottom line is that PO are a client party of Western big-money interests, although rank and file Platofmers probably believe all the freedom and democracy rhetoric PO politicians spout. PiS are an honest, straightforward and, above all, 100% Polish party not on the leash of foreign interests. All that should be considered when discussing the current political scene.
G (undercover)
9 Dec 2015 #259
Would you support what PiS is doing (now) if PO (or any other party) were doing it?

It's really hard to say as PO basically triggered off the whole mess (even commie Miller admitted that, see latest Wprost) and TK itself is not really what it should be, it's a kind of unelected "stealth government" right now and that's not what it should be. I would be against PiS doing "it" If they were doing "it" to a perfect non-biased institution.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #260
TK itself is not really what it should be

SURPRISE! SURPRISE!
The PO-dominated TK voted exactly the way the PO in their war on PiS wanted. Above all, Jaruzelski's unelected panel rejected the de-communisation of the TK leadership.

A 47-page report issued by Attorney General Andrzej Seremet declared that a decision by the PiS-dominated lower house of parliament to elect five new judges to the Tribunal was not in line with the country's constitution. Other issues which were unconstitutional, according to the Attorney General, were a 30-day time limit for the newly-elected judges to be sworn in by President Andrzej Duda, as well as an amendment shortening the term of the current head and deputy head of the Tribunal. In a recent sitting to rule on the selection of five new judges to the Tribunal by the former Civic Platform (PO) government, the court found that the election of two of the judges had been unconstitutional. The PiS government said that by electing five new judges to the Tribunal it was righting wrongs done by the previous PO cabinet. PiS added the PO's appointment of the judges had violated the constitution. (rg/pk) - See more at:

thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/232012,Three-amendments-to-the-Constitutional-Tribunal-deemed-unconstitutional#sthash.lz5LJvsZ.dpuf
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
9 Dec 2015 #261
PiS hard barely won the election when the Michnikites and frustrated PO losers pounced on them wtih unrestrained fury.

That ain't an answer to what I'm a' askin'

I would be against PiS doing "it" If they were doing "it" to a perfect non-biased institution.

There is no such thing as a perfect non-biased institution.

The PiS government said that by electing five new judges to the Tribunal it was righting wrongs done by the previous PO cabinet

And what point of law were they basing that on?

I'm in favor of rule of law and not rule of party.
Harry
9 Dec 2015 #262
It's really hard to say as PO basically triggered off the whole mess

To be honest, I think they may have done that. They were very clearly entitled to propose replacements for the three judges whose terms expired and those proposed judges should have been sworn in by the president, that is beyond debate. However, the other two proposed judges are another matter. PO were allowed to propose the replacements, as the correct procedure would have been that the president would refuse to swear them in and the constitutional court would then rule again those two PO proposed appointees.

My guess is that PO knew that PIS wouldn't be able to control itself and would not only block the two PO proposed judges who shouldn't have been appointed but also the three PO proposed judges who should have been appointed. I'd be very surprised if PO hadn't realised that the constitutional court would be very high up the list of targets for any regime that is planning an Orbanisation, which PIS clearly are planning (what with their talk of a fourth republic and similar treasonous rubbish and one unelected man controlling both the president and the prime minister). So they set a trap for PIS and PIS have walked right into it. In a few weeks PIS have managed to turn the country against them and demonstrate to all that the party named Law and Justice care nothing for Law or Justice when it stops them doing what they want to do.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #263
client party of Western big-money

Poland needs a law outlawing parties that serve foreign interests as agents of influence, are bankrolled by foreign corporations or receive campaign contributions from abroad. PO and Nowoczesna would be the first to go!
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
9 Dec 2015 #264
Poland needs a law outlawing parties that serve foreign interests

Says the foreigner.

I'd like to here a defense of what PiS is doing vis a vis the TK that is not based on "the ends justify the means" Will I ever actually get that?
Harry
9 Dec 2015 #265
Will I ever actually get that?

No you won't, because it's not possible to make a defence of PIS' attack on the constitution based on the rule of Polish law and the Polish constitution.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #266
the foreigner

Even the widow's pence of an indivudal foreigner would be illegal but the real problem are the millions being channelled to subservient lobbyists like the PO leadership.
smurf 39 | 1,981
9 Dec 2015 #267
That is, are you supporting what PiS is doing because they're PiS or because of legitimate rule of law considerations?

Isn't that the strangest thing?
I have never understood people who are blindly loyal to one party. Surely anyone with an ounce of sense would see that what PiS are doing is laying the foundations for something sinister.

If PO were doing it, the plastic patriots here would be up in arms but they are blind to see the wrongs of their party. That's really, really messed up. Surely as a citizen of a country you want what's best for your country and not what's best for a damned political party.

These plastic patriots don't seem to realise that the parties are there to serve us, the voters and not us to serve their whims.

Even the widow's pence

Did you learn English from a 1920s phrase book? What a weird thing to say in this day and age.
Sure mate, give us some proof.

Edited - no personal remarks please
G (undercover)
9 Dec 2015 #268
So feckin boring... how about some bets on the number of participants during these incoming "huge protests" ?
smurf 39 | 1,981
9 Dec 2015 #269
Edited - no personal remarks please

duly noted.

give us some proof.

Come on then, proof chopie
Ironside 49 | 10,311
9 Dec 2015 #270
That's called rule of law.

No this is called BS. Why you insists on maintaining an illusion that in Poland rule of law stands?

Would you support what PiS is doing (now) if PO (or any other party) were doing it?

Somebody found out that during PO rule they have ignored TK ruling about 50 times.

That is, are you supporting what PiS is doing because they're PiS or because of legitimate rule of law considerations?

Neither, they are issues at play that you are either unaware of or you are blatantly ignoring them.

Poland needs a law outlawing parties that serve foreign interestsSays the foreigner.

I second that!

Did you learn English from a 1920s phrase book?

As a born and breed American (who choose to identify with Poles) he learned that phrase during his studies, a concept which is entirely alien to you.

edited


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