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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #421
Ironside, really, stop with the regurgitated lies.
Legal Eagle
13 Dec 2015 #422
Except he wasn't, because he was elected under the rules set by the 1990 National Assembly.

HA HA HA HA HA!

More pro-communist ramblings.

Wałęsa's 7 year term in office came from the constitution, not the 1990 National Assembly which could not alter the president's term without approval of President Kaczorowski. Therefore, there was no change to the constitution of a free and independent Poland.

So basically less than a third of the number of participants of yesterday's democracy march could be bothered to turn up..

Jon, you are clearly confused about what a democratic republic is and how it functions. The democratic part comes from eligible voters electing the president and Sejm. They in turn form a republic. When the losing side in free and fair elections protest their loss in the street, it is not democracy, but it could lead to fascism.

TK in the current shape and form is not longer feasible.

Five judges on court of 15 cannot rule the nation, and cannot even legally decide to hear a case. That court is a farce, and needs to be reformed, or the anti-democratic subversives fomenting unrest need to be removed.
jon357 63 | 15,214
13 Dec 2015 #423
I think you, our transatlantic friend are the one confused about the European concept of democracy - especially concerning the right to protest. That same right that the awful Kaczynski and his supporters were very keen to exercise while not in office.

You've also showed that you fail to understand the concept and importance of the constitution and the constitutional tribunal to Polish society.

Or perhaps you just hate Poland.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Dec 2015 #424
It's now clear that PO hijacked the whole TK to use it against the next government, knowing they have no chance to win the next elections. Just like in the past they tried to affect the results of elections making a deal with head of the central bank to print the money or when they told special services to burn down the guard box at the Russian embassy to blame it on "nationalists" or when they were sending taxpayers' money to pro-government media. These people have total disregard for democracy and national interests. In many countries they would be just put against the wall and shot.

importance of the constitution and the constitutional tribunal to Polish society.

Until recently majority of Polish society didn't even know such a body exists.
Legal Eagle
13 Dec 2015 #425
I think you, our transatlantic friend are the one confused about the European concept of democracy - especially concerning the right to protest.

No, Jon, democracy came to us from those European Greeks, it means direct governance based upon the majority vote of citizens. It doesn't really exist as such in Europe for the most part, except perhaps for the odd referendum in which the decision of how to frame the issue has already been made. Governance in Europe is more correctly based on the concept of republican form of government, based largely on democratic election of those representatives. However, recognition of minority rights aren't related to democracy, and frequently run counter to that concept. A political scientist, you are not. Lastly, not all Poles living abroad are "transatlantic". :)

You've also showed that you fail to understand the concept and importance of the constitution and the constitutional tribunal to Polish society.

The present "constitutional tribunal" is a farce as the present duly elected Polish President and Sejm are exposing, with the hostility of foreign owned Polish media.

Polish history teaches us that when its head of state is powerful, the state prospers, and when he is weak, the state is manipulated and controlled by foreign interests, if not armies. My concept of Poland is greater both geographically and culturally than what these carpetbaggers can understand. My love of Poland, its history, people, cultural and religious diversity is older than any carpetbagger on this forum.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #426
Wałęsa's 7 year term in office came from the constitution, not the 1990 National Assembly which could not alter the president's term without approval of President Kaczorowski.

Incorrect. The National Assembly was the international recognised Polish government and Wałęsa operated to the rules set by that body, not by the undemocratic Government-in-Exile. If there was any confusion about the matter, it was cleared up with the 1992 Small Constitution which was adopted by the National Assembly that was elected by all Poles and derived its legitimacy from the Polish Nation.

Five judges on court of 15 cannot rule the nation, and cannot even legally decide to hear a case.

Of course it can, and it does. The Polish Nation voted for the National Assembly and President which enacted the laws surrounding the operation of the Constitutional Tribunal. Your attempts to describe the court as a "farce" show you to be completely out of touch (or perhaps never in touch) with Polish reality.

When the losing side in free and fair elections protest their loss in the street, it is not democracy, but it could lead to fascism.

Except they aren't protesting their loss in the streets. No-one is questioning the results of the election. Perhaps you need to expand your choice of sources beyond Breitbart.

It's now clear that PO hijacked the whole TK to use it against the next government, knowing they have no chance to win the next elections.

We already know what PO did, and PO already accepted the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal that the appointment of 2 of the judges was unconstitutional and invalid. They've already moved on.

or when they were sending taxpayers' money to pro-government media.

Would that be like how PiS have cancelled broadcasting fees for Radio Maryja?

In many countries they would be just put against the wall and shot.

More talk of violence from the terrified right wing, I see. Why are you and your people so scared, Gregory? In the last 24 hours, we've seen you, Ironside and Polonius all talking about the possibility of armed invention against KOD.

Until recently majority of Polish society didn't even know such a body exists.

Perhaps the majority of PiS voters didn't know, but most people I know are and were perfectly aware of what the TK does.

The present "constitutional tribunal" is a farce as the present duly elected Polish President and Sejm are exposing, with the hostility of foreign owned Polish media.

Could you perhaps provide a detailed list of the ownership of Polish media? Your statement is rather pointless otherwise. Remember to include the right wing media in your observation, particularly the ownership of the right wing internet portals.

Polish history teaches us that when its head of state is powerful, the state prospers, and when he is weak, the state is manipulated and controlled by foreign interests, if not armies.

So, given that the Polish President is very weak at the moment, does that mean that he is serving Russian interests? That certainly makes a lot of sense to me, and is the only logical explanation why a PhD in Law would openly break the Constitution.

My love of Poland, its history, people, cultural and religious diversity is older than any carpetbagger on this forum.

Remember people, this poster is American and has no ties to Poland.

Or perhaps you just hate Poland.

Couldn't agree more. Remember how it worked in Crimea - people that "loved Crimea" were there to defend it against that nasty Ukrainian influence.
Legal Eagle
13 Dec 2015 #427
The National Assembly was the international recognised Polish government and Wałęsa operated to the rules set by that body, not by the undemocratic Government-in-Exile.

More mania denying the Western betrayal of Poland and central to Eastern Europe. A free and independent Poland is determined by Poles, not foreign nations and interests, which is the core of Poland's problems today, as it has been historically.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #428
More mania denying the Western betrayal of Poland and central to Eastern Europe.

Nice of you to mention "Western Betrayal". You do realise that the phrase in Poland comes from the Soviet and later Polish propaganda to discredit the Western Allies?
jon357 63 | 15,214
13 Dec 2015 #429
Cobblers. 'Legal Eagle'. A free and independent Poland is defined by how its residents want it to be defined. Not by political fantasies posted on the Internet by someone thousands of miles away.

Should there be any desire to change the constitution, there would need to be a referendum with the appropriate quorum.
Legal Eagle
13 Dec 2015 #430
A free and independent Poland is defined by how its residents want it to be defined.

A comment by someone indifferent to Poland's history and culture. Jan Michał Dąbrowski was not a resident of Poland when he marched into the country from Italy. The man styled himself Johann Heinrich Dąbrowski and often lived abroad, which was irrelevant to his Polishness. Many in Polonia have Polish citizenship, and even if they don't the President of Poland has the power to repatriate anyone he wants to ensure that Poland retains its Polish culture in the face of residents who are hostile to that culture. I expect that process to hasten under President Dude, while foreigners like yourself find things less to your liking.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #431
Jan Michał Dąbrowski was not a resident of Poland when he marched into the country from Italy.

He didn't march into Poland because Poland didn't exist. Your knowledge of Polish history appears to be comparable to your knowledge of Polish law.

Many in Polonia have Polish citizenship, and even if they don't the President of Poland has the power to repatriate anyone he wants to ensure that Poland retains its Polish culture in the face of residents who are hostile to that culture. I expect that process to hasten under President Dude, while foreigners like yourself find things less to your liking.

Most of the Polonia actually don't have Polish citizenship. Many gave it up for more favourable citizenships, such as American or German, while others were forced to give it up.

Duda has no power to repatriate anyone, as it's a government competence and not a Presidential one. He may grant Polish citizenship upon application, but as has been explained to you countless times, many of the ex-USSR Polonia cannot simply take Polish citizenship without consequences at home, hence why the Karta Polaka exists.

I also don't expect any changes in the law surrounding Polish citizenship, it's not a priority for PiS or for anyone in the Sejm.
Legal Eagle
13 Dec 2015 #432
He didn't march into Poland because Poland didn't exist.

This is someone who may become a poster child for an example of someone who should never be permitted to have Polish citizenship.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #433
Don't worry, Polish law also ensures that citizens cannot have their citizenship revoked for any reason.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
13 Dec 2015 #434
revoked for any reason.

What about high treason by a naturalised expat?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #435
What about high treason by a naturalised expat?

There are no conditions to remove citizenship from a Polish citizen. Do you know why?

Jan MichałDąbrowski

Missed this, but clearly "Legal Eagle" needs some history lessons to go with his constitutional law lessons.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Dec 2015 #436
talking about the possibility of armed invention against KOD

Obviously that's not what I was talking about. In case of so called "KOD" it would be enough to investigate and expose the real people and money behind it. Most likely it would turn out that their website, "activities in social media" (trolls) and so on are financed by Schuman Foundation and similar "NGOs" that are basically agencies of foreign governments.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #437
Most likely it would turn out that their website, "activities in social media" (trolls) and so on are financed by Schuman Foundation and similar "NGOs" that are basically agencies of foreign governments.

Nice conspiracy theory, but unfortunately, it's pretty obvious that it's not the case. I understand entirely why you're making such insinuations - it's because a non-partisan anti-PiS movement has real potential for causing a lot of trouble for the government. But if it was anywhere near as slick as you're suggesting, then things would be a lot more organised than they are.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
14 Dec 2015 #438
Nice conspiracy theory, but

There's no "buts", the whole thing is clearly modeled on coloured revolutions/Arab spring kind of events, which were inspired and supported from abroad.

non-partisan

Right :)))

I've just picked up random text at the "KOB" thing: komitetobronydemokracji.pl/kuba-karys-gdyby-sie-nie-stalo/

The guy works for TVN, no kidding :)))))
pl.linkedin.com/in/kuba-kary%C5%9B-1a09b082

Another idiot :)))

And here the whole squad of "non-partisants" :))))) KOD guy with 2 vice-PMs, 3 heads of political parties and several others.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 Dec 2015 #439
abuse of the rule of law.

A convenient pretext. If it wasn't that, it'd be something else. The main thing is for the opposition's hate industry to turn over in top gear.

Crowd size? Ridiculous! Just recall how many Hitler and Stalin could draw into the streets. Does that make their evil ideologies any less evil?
The key question which you and many others have failed to answer:
IS IT TRULY IN POLAND'S INTEREST TO KEEP DEEPENING SOCIETY'S POLARISATION?

Schuman Foundation

Another is George Soros and his Batory Foundation. Behind all the high-sounding "civil society" rhetoric are the heavily bankrolled movers and shakers serving Western big-money interests.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
14 Dec 2015 #440
If it wasn't that, it'd be something else.

Then why is PiS making it so easy for opponents? Not very clever if you ask me.

Ridiculous! Just recall how many Hitler and Stalin could draw into the streets.

Is this really somewhere you want to go?

IS IT TRULY IN POLAND'S INTEREST TO KEEP DEEPENING SOCIETY'S POLARISATION?

PiS (in it's current incarnation which is still its old incarnation) cannot survive without the polarization. It's whole platform is a rejection of all modernity and a desire to return to a Poland that never existed.

If the toxic elders stepped aside then maybe the younger (so to speak) generation could morph into a more traditional Christian Democrat party and approach modernity in a more... realistic fashion.
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #441
Another is George Soros and his Batory Foundation.

True.

Then why is PiS making it so easy for opponents?

They "make it easy for the opponents" because the narration of "defenders of democracy/supporters of modernity" dominating the mainstream media made you believe that they "make it easy for the opponents".

rejection of all modernity

If "modernity" is taxing households to the point that millions had to leave the country and the rest is gradually dying out, while largely foreign owned banks, retail chains and assembly line pay taxes at below 0.1% of their turnover, down the closet with that "modernity".
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
14 Dec 2015 #442
If "modernity" is taxing households to the point that millions had to leave the country

Hahaha. Remember, PiS have already planned to increase taxes severely, including slamming families with 23% VAT on language classes for their children.

And yes, PiS are making it very easy for the opposition. Kaczyński's true colours came out very quickly...again.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
14 Dec 2015 #443
If "modernity" is taxing households to the point that millions had to leave the country and the rest is gradually dying out, while largely foreign owned banks, retail chains and assembly line pay taxes at below 0.1% of their turnover, down the closet with that "modernity".

See, I'm not crazy about those things either but literally not a single thing PiS has done so far indicates any desire to tackle those kinds of issues. Instead there's a lot of empty demagoguic puffery and no actual actions that don't make things worse.

PiS's victory is rapidly turning into a consolation boobie prize for people instead of any real change on any real issue that matters.

Again, I'm a fiscal conservative, social liberal (though not a crazy post-modern SJW or anything like that) and I'm in favor of moderate nationalism and a somewhat scaled back EU (and no more "european intergration" oh god, please no more of that).

How would PiS (assuming I could vote which I can't) further my preferences?
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #444
See, I'm not crazy about those things either but literally not a single thing PiS has done so far indicates any desire to tackle those kinds of issues.

money.pl/gospodarka/wiadomosci/artykul/podatki-w-polsce-kowalczyk-stawki-vat-beda,126,0,1978494.html -> VAT (raised by Donald "I will never raise taxes" Tusk) going down to the old rates for a start. When the government start working several weeks before the end of the year, they have hardly any impact on the current budget and limited impact on the next one. You need at least a year for a preliminary assessment of "what they are doing".

I'm a fiscal conservative, social liberal (though not a crazy post-modern SJW or anything like that) and I'm in favor of moderate nationalism and a somewhat scaled back EU

How would PiS (assuming I could vote which I can't) further my preferences?

So they are in line with your views on the 3rd one, NOT in line with your views on the 2nd one and in case of first... they are going to move some of the burden (which is terrible now) from household and SMEs to banks and big business in general. Poles, just like vast majority of Europeans, want "free" health care, "free" education etc. and someone has to pay for that, so it's a matter of distributing the share of costs between institutional sectors, that's where government has something to say. You can't seriously reduce overall taxation rate without shutting down "free education" etc. and at least they are honest about it, unlike previous gang.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 Dec 2015 #445
Not very clever

I agree. PiS lack the slick, smooth, glib and slippery cleverness and well-oiled PR machinery of the deceptive abeit persuasive pro-oligarch lobby which passes itself off as a "defender of demcoracy". If they admitted they were actually defending the privileges of and getting hefty kickbacks from foreign, banks, retail chains and media concerns, their following would be very small indeed.
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #446
All hope in Kamiński :))))
Harry
14 Dec 2015 #447
VAT (raised by Donald "I will never raise taxes" Tusk) going down to the old rates for a start.

The promise is that it will go down. However, PIS also promised that 500zl would be given to each and every child from the second one onwards and they haven't paid out on that. PIS also promised that Macierewicz wouldn't be defence minister, and look who is defence minister. And even if PIS do make good on their promise to cut VAT, that will be more than offset by the tax on supermarkets and banks that will hit the vast majority of Poles (but won't have any effect on me).
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
14 Dec 2015 #448
I agree. PiS lack the slick, smooth, glib and slippery cleverness and well-oiled PR machinery of the deceptive abeit persuasive pro-oligarch lobby

blah blah blah those are Russia Today talking points, why are you so in favor of a party that's so closely in line with Putinite goals?

I'm in favor of what works and not much of what PiS is proposing has a good track record. The real danger in Poland (which if you actually lived here you'd know) is the creation of an underclass of undereducated and unemployable people. And no, this is not PO's fault but a decades long breakdown in social cohesion which most parties (including PiS) are exacerbating.

None of the parties (including PiS) is willing to talk about this in public or talk about possible remedies which would not be popular with the core PiS voters who are more interested in government handouts than doing the work necessary to improve life in Poland.
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #449
PIS also promised that 500zl would be given to each and every child from the second one onwards and they haven't paid out on that.

They will.

PIS also promised that Macierewicz wouldn't be defence minister

They didn't.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 Dec 2015 #450
None of the parties

At least PiS want to create a Polish entrepreneurial class. Re-polonising banks and brodacsting is another way of hoping to decrease foreign cotnrol, żeby Polska była Polską! No-one knows how, when and even whether they'll succeed but at least this is on their agenda. The so-called "market-friendly" parties want nothing to change and are only concerend about pleasing and getting kickbacks from their Western corporate masters and to hell with Poland's little guy. He can fend for himself, right?


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