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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #451
Kapo Schultz has spoken :)))))))))

wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Martin-Schulz-sytuacja-w-Polsce-bedzie-przedmiotem-dyskusji-w-PE,wid,18043375,wiadomosc.html
Harry
14 Dec 2015 #452
At least PiS want to create a Polish entrepreneurial class.

They might want to do that, but what they are doing is the complete opposite. Entrepreneurs need to be confident that the rule of law will be observed: they need to know that they can plan investments secure in the knowledge that basic laws will not change and thus the conditions under which they plan their investment. The present 18%-regime doesn't even respect the most fundament rules in Poland, i.e. those set forth in the constitution; instead it ignores the constitution whenever the constitution says something The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski doesn't like.

Re-polonising banks

Entrepreneurs don't care whether they borrow from a Polish-owned bank or a foreign bank, they just want the best terms and the best service: they don't get either of those from banks whose senior staff are appointed not due to their ability but instead due to their political connections.

their Western corporate masters

Care to remind us how many Polish companies you have ever worked for?
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #453
regime

I've noticed some trolls even began to talk about early elections, seeing faces of Platfuses when they hear that would be priceless :))))))))

Soon rats will be trying to jump off the sinking ship, some of them to Swetru (which will take away "this is something new" effect some clueless imbeciles fall for) others to PiS, likely bringing a lot of insider "knowledge" with them,
smurf 39 | 1,981
14 Dec 2015 #454
They will.

They won't

They didn't.

They did, your fake Prime Minister did.
Harry
14 Dec 2015 #455
your fake Prime Minister did.

Did that cat Duda say something about it too?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
14 Dec 2015 #456
At least PiS want to create a Polish entrepreneurial class.

nothing I've ever heard them say convinces me of that. Where are you getting it? And "repolonizing" banks is less important to entrepreneurs than rule of law and predictability.

Talking about breaking the "układ" (system) creates instability and businesses run from that as fast as they can (escept for a few shysters). Who's to say that respectable businessperson employing 14 people won't be targetted by the government as part of the "układ"?

If you want to create a business friendly environment you stick with the rule of law even when it's not so fun. Like swearing in the three members of the TK that were legitimately chosen and the first two whose oaths were accepted by the president.

Western corporate masters

More Russia Today talk. And, if you haven't noticed (of course you haven't you don't know people living in Poland) you'd know that many young Poles would rather work for foreign companies (so hated by PiS) because they're more likely to have clear guidelines for job evaluation and promotion. Polish companies are notorious for promoting on the basis of nepotism and connections rather than merit.
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #457
And "repolonizing" banks is less important to entrepreneurs than rule of law and predictability.

That's a totally critical issue for the whole economy.

Talking about breaking the "układ" (system) creates instability

"Układ" itself and things it created, like "holes" in VAT that costs us all tens of billions a year, that's what creates instability. The rest is cheap talk of thieves that you repeat - let's do nothing or the sky will fail over our heads.

many young Poles would rather work for foreign companies

And many Afro-American gays would vote for shirtless Putin. Now show me a rich country without strong domestic corporations.

Please stick to the topic
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
14 Dec 2015 #458
Entrepreneurs need to be confident that the rule of law will be observed

Which in turn makes people set up business in Slovakia and the Czech Republic. PiS are well known to have a deep hatred of the self employed classes (just like the PZPR did, in fact), and the latest talk is of forcing them not only to pay 1100zł a month minimum for ZUS, but also to hammer them with a proportional tax on top.

Entrepreneurs don't care whether they borrow from a Polish-owned bank or a foreign bank, they just want the best terms and the best service

I'd say for the vast majority of people, the best terms and the best service is what matters, which is why I use ING. If PKO or the new PZU super-bank offers better terms and better service, I'll use them instead.

And "repolonizing" banks is less important to entrepreneurs than rule of law and predictability.

Worth pointing out that the PiS banking and insurance tax has caused PZU to declare quite openly that their plans for creating a banking and insurance giant are now on ice because they're going to lose a significant amount of money. It seems that PiS, yet again, have decided to screw over domestic companies.

Who's to say that respectable businessperson employing 14 people won't be targetted by the government as part of the "układ"?

Of course they will be targets, especially if their owners are politically active.

many young Poles would rather work for foreign companies (so hated by PiS) because they're more likely to have clear guidelines for job evaluation and promotion

Polonius doesn't know anything about this, because he's more familiar with how things worked in times of...yore.

I know a great example - I've got a friend that worked as the accountant for a company producing stuffing for furniture and mattresses. It's a mid-sized company, about 70-80 working there as well as temporary staff on top. The old finance manager was retiring, and given that she was his deputy, it would be logical for her to step straight into his position. Instead, without even so much as a discussion, the job was given to someone from outside - who, of course, was actually the cousin of the HR manager. When she pulled the managing director up on it, he told her that she wasn't suitable for the job. No explanation given, no attempt to provide feedback, just a straightforward "deal with it".

And this attitude is exactly why people avoid Polish companies, because this sort of behaviour is routine and commonplace.

That's a totally critical issue for the whole economy.

It's only critical because PiS want to tax the hell out of the "Polish" banks, and foreign banks will resist such attempts. Who pays? The Polish person. PiS are very, very good at finding underhanded ways to extract money from the common Pole.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,296
14 Dec 2015 #459
[quote=delphiandomine]It's only critical because PiS want to tax the hell out of the "Polish" banks, and foreign banks will resist such attempts./quote]

Your whole post is very telling Delph.... PIS think they can threaten the populace.

I stand by my earlier statement though that the Polish government will never ever see another zloty in ZUS from my good self. Unless they halve the monthly payment; then I might consider it......
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #460
It's only critical because PiS...

No. It's critical for damn load of other reasons. But you wouldn't understand that anyway. Guys, just stick to building up your kindergarten careers :))))
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
14 Dec 2015 #461
I stand by my earlier statement though that the Polish government will never ever see another zloty in ZUS from my good self.

Well, the current belief is that PiS will introduce Czech-style social taxation. That means a minimum payment (same as now), but then with extra social taxation on a sliding scale. In other words, PiS will hammer the entrepreneur even more than now. I also suspect that umowa o dzieło will cease to exist sooner rather than later due to the need to find more cash.
Roger5 1 | 1,458
14 Dec 2015 #462
If PiS raised Zus to 1100, hundreds of thousands of self-employed would give up. It's hard enough now for sole traders; a rise like that would kill a lot of them. Politicians haven't got a f**king clue.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
14 Dec 2015 #463
I also suspect that umowa o dzieło will cease to exist sooner rather than later due to the need to find more cash.

That'll show the układ! ..... somehow

Economic gravity -

The more restrictions you put on employment, the less employment there will be.

The more tax you collect from entrepreneurs the fewer entrepreneurs there will be.

The more you keep out foreign capital the less domestic capital there will be.

In other words there ain't no such thing as a free lunch - but PiS keeps telling voters there is (to be fair they're not the only party that does that but no other party is as self-righteous about it).
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #464
no such thing as a free lunch

Damn lot of corporate welfare for "foreign investors".
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
14 Dec 2015 #465
It's hard enough now for sole traders; a rise like that would kill a lot of them.

...it's already not far away. PO lost a lot of support from the self employed because of this issue - a lot of them went to Nowoczesna. But whacking the self-employed with extra charges on top of the base amount would really be the end of it - or people would just do everything under the table.

Economic gravity -

Couldn't agree more. But it's obvious that PiS are appealing to those that are nostalgic for the days of heavy industry and full employment. That means - by nature - discouraging and punishing the small business owner.

I expect PiS to do absolutely nothing but hurt the small business owner for the next 4 years.

Latest news : The University of Warsaw's Faculty of Law and Administration has issued an open letter strongly condemning Duda and the government for their failure to respect the Constitutional Tribunal's decision. This follows an open letter by Jagiellonian University's Faculty of Law (the alma mater of Duda and where he is still technically employed) criticising the same thing.

Duda is becoming rapidly isolated in the legal profession, as he is widely viewed to be bringing shame upon their name.

warszawa.wyborcza.pl/warszawa/1,34862,19343296,wydzial-prawa-uw-ostro-o-dzialaniach-prezydenta-dudy-i-sejmu.html#Czolka3Img
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
14 Dec 2015 #466
That means - by nature - discouraging and punishing the small business owner.

I think PiS voters still think of entrepreneurs much the say way that the PRL thought about prwyaciarze
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #467
PiS voters are more often entrepreneurs themselves than voters of Platfuses, who these days are mainly public sector employees and pensioners.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
14 Dec 2015 #468
PiS voters are more often entrepreneurs themselves than voters of Platfuses,

source?
G (undercover)
14 Dec 2015 #469
Here:
biznesgazeta.pl/wybory-2015-przedsiebiorcy-wybieraja-pis-drugie-miejsce-zajmuje-korwin/

and many others, you can google it up on your own.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 Dec 2015 #470
hammer the entrepreneur

Foreign entrepreneur-explotiers should be hammered and forced to pay their fair share of taxes. Meanwhile, everything should be done to build up a Polish entrepreneurial class through education, whatever tax breaks and preferential treatment the Brussels Behemoth will allow and various incentives. This should go hand in hand with the creation and promtion of the Poland brand, and indivdual recognisably Polish brands. Foreign corporate exploiters in Poland should be closely scrutinised for corruption, kickbacks or other financial irregularieis.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
14 Dec 2015 #471
Foreign entrepreneur-explotiers

Who decides who is an "exploiter" or not? Especially with the rule of law in tatters?

Meanwhile, everything should be done to build up a Polish entrepreneurial class through education, whatever tax breaks and preferential treatment the Brussels Behemoth will allow and various incentives.

You can't hammer entrepreneurs and build up a class of entrepreneurs at the same time. Cannot be done. It's a fantasy and not implementable policy.

Foreign corporate exploiters in Poland should be closely scrutinised for corruption, kickbacks or other financial irregularieis.

What about Polish exploiters? As has been explained numerous times many would rather not work for Polish companies because of the history of nepotism and connections prevailing over competence.

Vulgar marxist rhetoric might make some people feel better but the road to prosperity is long and winding with many setbacks and is best followed at a slow pace with the rule of law, there are no quick fixes and Big Daddy government cna't make the foreign bogeymen disappear.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 Dec 2015 #472
would rather not work for Polish companies b

If Polish entrepreneurship is weak, flawed or udnerdeveloped does that mean Poland must be doomed to that state of affairs indefinitely? If there is a problem it should be tackled. The point is rather to upgrade the level of indigenous Polish entrepreneruship, provide the necessary study programmes as well as incentives for students to do those courses. The 20 inter-war years were not enough to offset 123 years of foreign occupation before then and the 50 years of Nazi-Soviet occupation afterwards. Dunno if you were in Poland right after '89, but burgeoning Polish business back then were people who traded off newspapers on the pavement. Then some graduated to "szczęki" (metal street stalls)... It was all very primitive and makeshift. Meanwhile to the west there was Opel, VW, Daimler-Benz, Siemens, Bosch, Telefunken to mention only Germany. Poland needs to make up for lost time pretty damn quick. Otherwise it'll remain a cheap manpower country offering inexpensive investment sites for foreign assembly work and toxic industry with most of the profits getting channelled back home.

But the Western corporate lobby (Petru & Co.) want things to stay the way they are rather than see Poland progress and develop.
How is it that a country that produces some of Europe's best food has to sell it to the Polish public via Carrefour, Leclerc, Auchan, Tesco, Biedronka, Billa, Bumi, Aldi, etc.? Hasn't this ever irked you?
Legal Eagle
14 Dec 2015 #473
Duda is becoming rapidly isolated in the legal profession, as he is widely viewed to be bringing shame upon their name.

Why don't snakes bite lawyers?

Professional courtesy!

HA HA HA HA HA!

Standing up for the people against the elitists will only increase Duda's popularity against the subversives.

These criticisms from Polish academics highlight the failure of prior regimes to purge the old commies from academia in Poland. A lustration like occurred in other post-communists regimes in the region is long overdue. I'm tired of hearing these people write non-sense defending the communist regime and bashing Poland. Time to finally clean out the Augean stables of the communist influence.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
14 Dec 2015 #474
Standing up for the people against the elitists will only increase Duda's popularity against the subversives.

Except the polls show otherwise. In fact, the opinion polls are showing that he's losing support at a dramatic rate. Your knowledge of Polish current affairs appears to be like your knowledge of Polish politics, Polish law and Polish history - non-existent.

These criticisms from Polish academics highlight the failure of prior regimes to purge the old commies from academia in Poland.

Fortunately, your lack of knowledge of Poland shows further. Higher educational institutions in Poland are legally autonomous and can do what they want. We can add Polish education to the list of subjects that you know nothing about, anyway. Furthermore, it's worth pointing out that Duda is still formally employed by academia.

By the way, it's pretty much unheard of for entire faculties to get involved like this.
pweeg3
14 Dec 2015 #475
Economic gravity -

Its Capitalism, the free flow of capital to where its performs best.

PiS are fundamentally socialists or communists, take your pick
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
14 Dec 2015 #476
PiS are fundamentally socialists

It's like an economic graph that suddenly plunges downward - Guess when the socialists took power!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
14 Dec 2015 #477
The złoty is certainly in the toilet - 1EUR = 4.37zł now.

What was that about "a strong Poland" that Polonius kept going on about?

This should go hand in hand with the creation and promtion of the Poland brand, and indivdual recognisably Polish brands.

I'm all for it. I'll even start a business like that if PiS will support it. Unfortunately, PiS are somewhat suspicious towards private entrepreneurs, and what funds are available will almost certainly be directed towards big heavy industries.

Don't get me wrong Polonius, if PiS focused heavily on small entrepreneurs and provided them with the support needed (first 5 employees have ZUS paid by the state, percentage based contributions rather than fixed rate ones, minimal accounting requirements (so that I could do it myself) and so on) - then they would do very well indeed.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 Dec 2015 #478
a strong Poland

A strong Poland is the goal not present reality. If the misguided opposition that think they're defending democracy (but are actually serving the corproate Petru clique) conintue anrachising things, little can be done to achieve that end.
jon357 63 | 15,214
14 Dec 2015 #479
Unfortunately, PiS are somewhat suspicious towards private entrepreneurs

To say the least. Your quote "what funds are available" is very significant - they can't balance the books to pay for their basic promises, let alone anything else.

And no amount of dickering about abusing the constitution will change that.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Dec 2015 #480
on small entrepreneurs

For starters but the long-range goal should be the creation of large, viable Polish corporations. Maybe in some cases mixed public-private companies could be developed combining treasury and private capital. Are there any such mixed companies at present?


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