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US slaps Poland in the face (Comey Poland)

27 Apr 2015 #61
somebody who is either an inept amateur or a biased and dishonest person.

Yes, Princeton university is noted for employing professors who fit into one of those categories.
jon357 74 | 22,469
27 Apr 2015 #62
take-over of presumably abandoned Jewish property (at that point no-one knew Germany would lose the war!), reporting hiding Jews to the Gestapo and similar Polish misdeeds have been talked about, written about, lectured about, documentaries have been made and in general the topic has been ridden and beaten to death.

Indeed, because the acts by a conquered people were so egregious. Doubtless some were out of desperation and others from avarice and opportunity.

What about the other side of the story.

Yes. There is also similar evidence of cultured gentiles returning to their homes close to cities at the end of the war and finding peasants in their homes, wearing their clothes.

Yes, Princeton university is noted for employing professors who fit into one of those categories.

Quite. The narrative doesn't fit 'Vox's' prejudice so he attempt to rubbish the source. Maybe he's unfamiliar with Princeton.
Vox - | 172
27 Apr 2015 #63
Harry, they can employ whoever they want.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
27 Apr 2015 #64
Except the other side of the story was Jews victimising Poles. That's the narrative that still needs to be told. Except that to the free-speech-suppressing PC dictatorship that is a taboo.
Lyzko 45 | 9,513
27 Apr 2015 #65
Vox dear fellow, I think you might not have understood my last post! The point of the story is that the fact that places like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek and other camps still stand is precisely because far too many European gentiles (who also call themselves Christians, by the way) continue to remind Jews that they are not wanted in their country. When the man said that he was tired of being reminded about Auschwitz etc.., his own bigotry and that of others like him, doesn't permit the Jews of Europe to simply "move on". Herein lies the problem!

The nation which stands out in this sub-discussion is not Poland, but Hungary, whose Jobbik party scares the daylights out of me. Despite all the talk of Polish-Hungarian Friendship, Orban is far more xenophobic than nearly any Polish leader in recent memory.
28 Apr 2015 #66
Andrei Sawoniuk - His mother was Polish unfortunately. No-one knows who his father was. No-one has mentioned Szymon Serafinowicz who unfortunately was also Polish. Both were evil and may they both burn in hell.
Lyzko 45 | 9,513
28 Apr 2015 #67
Your point being? That not all Poles were evil, anti-semitic thugs etc..?

I know that. So do all enlightened people.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
28 Apr 2015 #68
And not all Jews were innocent victims. They're like anyonelelse -- good. bad and in between. The problem is that the German-conceived holocaust was so horrific that somehow their misdeeds get overlooked. The 22 months of Stalin's annexed eastern Poland are a good example of how some Jews treated Poles when given an opportunity and the Red Army and NKVD to hide behind.

Besides, aren't you tired of discussing how anti-Semitic or non-anti-Semitic Poles are or were? How many Jews they saved and how many they killed or robbed. It's all old hat, beating a dead horse, etc. Let's hear at least a bit about Jewish attitudes and actions directed at Poles and maybe Goyim in general. That is a fresh and still untapped area. How many know that in Old Poland Jews innkeepers were known to give Polish peasants free drinks to get them hooked on alcohol and then raked in the he profits or even took over their property for unpaid debts. Or that Jews turned Polish insurrectionists over to the tsarist authorities. Mutual relations are never shaped by just one side.
28 Apr 2015 #69
Poles are fully aware that they had many rotten apples - Neighbours Pokłasie etc ad nauseum. Jews are fully aware that they also had a minority of evil communists that did evil things and cruel Kapos in the camps that turned on their own. It's time to move on and stop finding fault in each other. Jews and Poles are brothers time for some brotherly love instead of looking for nasty things from the past.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
28 Apr 2015 #70
After Polish alleged or real misdeeds have been subjected to in-depth analysis, discussed, debated, dissected, x-rayed and thrashed out in every imaginable way, it's easy to say: let's move on. Yes, let's move on after the misdeeds of others have been similarly discussed, analysed, dissected, x-rayed and thrashed out. BTW, how many documentaries have you seen focusing on Jewish misdeeds against Poles? How many books or articles have you read on the treacherous Judsenräte, the brutal Ghetto police, the incinerating kapos, the Jewish Gestapo informers? Ans that only touches on WW2.
28 Apr 2015 #71
Endless documentaries and research about the communist crimes by Jews against Jews, by Jews against non Jews, by non Jews against non Jews, detailed accounts of deportations of non Jews and Jews alike, judenrat crimes, kapos, kastner etc public trials in Israel. Vigilante self styled executions of past kapos and collaborators. Kastner was gunned down in the street in tel aviv amongst many others this was all dealt with in the past in just as much detail and self loathing by Jews as the recent wave of anti-polish literature of neighbours etc. it has all been looked at from every angle. Jews and poles are in fact more similar and more sensitive than they realise. This really has all been looked at in depth just as every pole knows the anti-polish literature that sensationalises polish wrong doing and hates it every Jew knows the name of every kapo, collaborator, evil judenrat member etc this really has all been examined. We must all remember and deal with this and reconcile.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
28 Apr 2015 #72
I have read Gross's books, seen Lanzmann's Shoah and Wajda's Holy Week, Pokłosie, Ida, Polański's Schindler's list and am constantly hearing discussions on Polish TV about Polish anti-Semitism (the latest on Modnay night on the Tomasz Lis show). But I have never seen a single film devoted exclusively to Jewish iniquities against Poles. The term Jewish anti-Polonism surfaced briefly after Gross' books appeared but in general appear 3,000 or maybe 5,000 times less frequently than the opposite. A hard-hitting feature film could be made on the post-war escapades of the Bermans, Brystygiers, Minces, Romkowksis, Fejgins, Mietkowski, Czaplickis, etc. in enslaving, torturing and killing Polish patriots opposed to their country's Sovietisation. But the Wajdas of this world have somehow not seen fit to make one. There have been a few scholarly works on the subject but nothing aimed at the general public. Maybe in Jewish circles Jewish misdeeds against Poles are widely known but not to rank and file Goyim. Why?
28 Apr 2015 #73
In Jewish circles these misdeeds are very known and discussed especially in Israel. Anti Polinism was publically debated and condemned outright ever since prime minister Shamir's statements. Constant debates and studies of the evil ghetto police, judenrat, kapos, certain evil communists who many were Jewish and created pogroms against Jews and deported poles. However the specific movies and sources you quote are specifically designed to appeal to the U.S. market and to push a certain anti-polish agenda. By the way the word goyim is extremely offensive in Yiddish and is not really used any more by modern day Jewish people who tend to speak Hebrew. Ever since Pope John Paul II anti-Polonism is seen as more of an American thing and is condemned by most Jews. Jews tend to see modern Poland as a friend and an ally. I am sorry if I disappoint you.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
28 Apr 2015 #74
Always willing and eager to learn, esp. straight from the horse's mouth. What I was basically saying is that the Polish general public is not exposed to the other side of the question, only to alleged or real Polish misdeeds. So there is a clear imbalance in the narration.
Kurzer555 - | 12
28 Apr 2015 #75
@Polonius3 I totally understand your frustration and anger. I am not surprised you feel as you do if you have been exposed to so much of this. It seems you have been exposed to a 'Hollywood' package of movies and books that is a simplified and sterotypical version of these times. This is to cater for a certain US audience and is in effect entertainment. In this Hollywood take on the events Jews were quivering impotent 'zydki' victims with hats and beards and headscarves lead like lambs to the slaughter, The Polish army consisted of a few calvary officers on hoseback with moustaches who were overrun by the Germans and the Polish people themselves under occupation were illiterate 'chłopi' at best passive bystanders and at worst collaborators and needless to say the Americans and British were the heros who did the fighting and saved the miserable Poles and Jews. This is a Hollywood version of events and I have attached a picture to perhaps show you a little of reality that doesn't fit the entertainment package. I have attached a photo from Warsaw Jewish cemetry that I took in December. It shows the graves of Jewish men and women who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and survived and were saved by their Polish Christian neighbours who risked their lives and hid them. These Jewish fighters went on to fight with the Armia Krajowa and died fighting alongside their Polish Christian neighbours. The inscriptions on the graves are in Polish. These Jews died for Poland. Christians and Jews together fought fascism and Christians and Jews together suffered under communism.
Kurzer555 - | 12
28 Apr 2015 #76
I meant that these Jewish Poles died fighting in the Armia Krajowa afterwards alongside their Christian friends in the Warsaw uprising.
This is reality.

OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
29 Apr 2015 #77
And 10% of the Polish officers murdered in Katyń were Jewish -- the exact same percentage constituted by Jews in pre-war Polish society. The bottom line is that one should never say Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Albanians. Liechtensteiners or Bolivians did this or that, acted this way or that, but always add the qualifier "some".
yehudi 1 | 433
29 Apr 2015 #78
By the way the word goyim is extremely offensive in Yiddish and is not really used any more by modern day Jewish people who tend to speak Hebrew.

Not really so offensive. It's simply the only word in Yiddish for a non-Jew. The degree of offensiveness depends on the context and the tone of voice. In Hebrew it's more polite to say the equivalent of "non-Jew" (לא יהודי) but "goy" is also used and is not necessarily offensive.
Kurzer555 - | 12
29 Apr 2015 #79
To Yehudi. I kind of get what you are saying. However Hebrew is my first language. It's the language I speak to my wife and children at home. I wouldn't be happy if my children used the word 'goy'. If I was to use this word in public my wife would be horrified. Maybe the word offensive is wrong but I would say it is extremely politically incorrect and is the sort of word my grandfather would have used when speaking in Yiddish. In Hebrew we say לא יהודי or you could say נכרי I guess but that also sounds strange and sort of biblical.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
29 Apr 2015 #80
Since I'm a language buff, I'm wondering what % of Israeli citizens today speak
Yiddish. If one goes into a shop or café and starts speaking (ordering food) in YIddish, what is the reaction from a native speaker of Hebrew? Does it sound cute and quaint or hopelssly old-fashion or what?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
29 Apr 2015 #81
I spent some time in Israel back in the mid to late 80s Polonius, and even then the only people you heard talking Yiddish seemed ancient. Although of course in those days I had the arrogance of youth..:(
Kurzer555 - | 12
29 Apr 2015 #82
To be honest in Israel Yiddish is spoken mostly by the ultra-orthodox community and they often live in their own areas and have their own shops, cafes etc. they must be about 10-15% of the population I guess (that is just a rough quote so don't quote me). They do speak Yiddish amongst themselves but in Israel pretty much all of these people speak Hebrew also. As for non-religious people speaking Yiddish in Israel as a real language and not just the odd phrase, it would really be the over 70 age group of secular non-religious Jews who would actually speak Yiddish as a real language. Due to Israelis of different backgrounds marrying it means younger non-religious Jews just don't speak it or use it. I am of Polish background but my wife's parents are from Libya so needless to say they don't understand a word of Yiddish. I do have friends, couples are of the same Eastern European background and they would use Yiddish or Polish etc as a language to say things in front of their children for example so the kids don't understand. When I speak Yiddish to religious Jews they are a little surprised to be honest they don't expect it, maybe because I am quite dark skinned. Outside of Israel Yiddish is spoken by Hassidic communities for example in London, Antwerp etc. When during work interractions I speak Yiddish to them they almost fall off their chairs with shock since it really is only associated with ultra-orthodox or over 70 age group. So in conclusion if you went into a random shop in Israel speaking Yiddish in a non-religious neighbourhood you probably wouldn't get very far! I realise their has been a push to revive Yiddish as a language but it hasn't happened in non-religious people. Most of us stick to Hebrew.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
29 Apr 2015 #83
yes the ultra orthodox community here in London - the ones that will not live in Israel because they are too religious - use Yiddish as an everyday language. I only know that because they used to come to our seaside town for their summer holidays.
Kurzer555 - | 12
29 Apr 2015 #84
I happen to know a Hassidic ultra-orthodox family in London. One of the daughters was married recently and 3 weeks after the marriage she left her husband for a young Polish builder who was doing some work in their house. When it comes down to it it's all costumes and traditions. We are all human beings. We are all the same, we all have the same needs, desires, aspirations etc.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
29 Apr 2015 #85
yes that sounds really believable kurzer!
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
29 Apr 2015 #86
We all have animalistic urges centring round turf, food chain and mating. But those with a moral compass and ethical code first ask themselves is this the proper, decent, ethical thing to do and know how to exercise self-restraint. That's what differentiaties humans from lower-level life forms. Sad to say. many people have failed to or are unable to rise above the zoological.

Everybody stick to the topic please
Roger5 1 | 1,443
29 Apr 2015 #87
Roz, it's a pity Jack Rosenthal isn't around to make a tv play out of it.
It seems that almost everyone has learned something from this diplomatic cluster...error. Poland's response was just right.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
29 Apr 2015 #88
it's a pity Jack Rosenthal isn't around to make a tv play out of it.

lol indeed Jack would have been blown away with such a rich vein of material.
29 Apr 2015 #89
Poland's response was just right.

You really think so? I thought complaining about something which somebody didn't say very much gave the suggestion that certain people feel Poland has something to hide. As I said before Poland should have just responded with the truth and only to the comments that Comey made. For example, it could have been pointed out that there were people from the USA who joined the SS despite the USA as a nation fighting against the holocaust and asked why Poland should have been any different.
Roger5 1 | 1,443
29 Apr 2015 #90
I meant that Poland didn't go over the top in its condemnation. It showed greater diplomatic nouse than the USA.

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