The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / Off-Topic  % width posts: 23

A false German policy in the face of the crisis of the eurozone.


Ironside 47 | 9,628
21 Apr 2013  #1
The German economy is not in crisis, and the crisis in the euro-zone is beneficial to the German economy at the same time spreading myth of Germany as the main net contributor to the EU.

However, the political and social dynamics if a such policy continue leads towards disaster.
The causes of the crisis in the euro area does not lie with the indebted countries of southern Europe, but due to a fatal error that lay at the origin of the single currency.

Through the establishment of an independent Central Bank, Member States indebted in a currency that can not be controlled. In this way, indebted countries of southern Europe were in a situation similar to that of the Third World countries, their debts are in foreign currencies and they have no influence over the exchange rate. As a consequence, the euro area have been divided between countries which are in debt and those who are creditors.

The Telegraph ", claims that the crisis in the euro zone is used by the Germans to build an empire according to the plans spun by Bismarck. The countries of Southern Europe are subject to a process of de-industrialization,they lose their economic sovereignty, and with its political independence, transformed into a kind of colony forming market for industrial north-European, especially German . In return, the North provide raw materials, agricultural products and cheap labor.

According to American analyst Tony Corn, German elites are guided by the doctrine of Rahm Emanuel - a former adviser of Barack Obama - which proclaimed: "Never let a serious crisis go to waste". If one choose to believe Tom Corn projections they have in store technocratic, anti-democratic and anti-free-market model of unification of Europe.

On the other hand the USA financial elite would like to keep all threads of financial and economical interests of the world in check.
Would they undercut a new rising economical powers just to keep their domination intact and uncontested?
TheOther 5 | 3,646
22 Apr 2013  #2
The Telegraph ", claims that the crisis in the euro zone is used by the Germans to build an empire according to the plans spun by Bismarck.

ROTFL! Really? Well, they need to fill their crappy paper with some sh*t, don't they?

Anyway: guess who were the ones who were originally behind the introduction of the Euro. Hint: not the Germans ... they wanted to keep their DM.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
22 Apr 2013  #3
me, me, me!

It was the French, as the price of allowing German reunification.

Anyone who knows even basic history knows this. Mitterand was no fool.
TheOther 5 | 3,646
22 Apr 2013  #4
It was the French, as the price of allowing German reunification.

Good job! A+

;)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
22 Apr 2013  #5
:)

It is very logical if you look at the history of Europe since WW2 - France has constantly tried to tie Germany into deeper and deeper integration. They're not quite there yet, but the obvious French endgame is for political union with Germany. 1989 was a blessing for France - she finally had the chance to launch the EMU project - and with it, make sure that the Single European Act of 1987 actually went into force.

I don't think it's much of a surprise that the early/mid 90's saw both customs and identity checks abandoned in parts of the EU.
TheOther 5 | 3,646
22 Apr 2013  #6
but the obvious French endgame is for political union with Germany.

You think? There's a political development in Germany at the moment (called "Alternative fuer Deutschland") which wants to get the country out of the Euro zone. From what I've heard, they have quite a few followers already even though the established parties try their old trick again to paint them as right-wing or Nazi. I for one believe that the Germans are fed up with their politicians and with the European Union, and I can't even blame them. They pay and pay and pay, and all they get back is being called Nazis. Germany is in the same position in Europe as the USA is on a global scale: damned if you do, damned if you don't.
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
22 Apr 2013  #7
They pay and pay and pay, and all they get back is being called Nazis.

That is the myth. there is reason for their economy to blossom. Also i don't think it matters whose idea the euro was - not really.

what we have now - disparity between economic condition of European countries is getting bigger instead of getting smaller due to the euro (mainly) but not only.

Bureaucrats are brokering deals and strong countries are getting better deals and it all has a little to do with European unity and solidarity.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
22 Apr 2013  #8
what we have now - disparity between economic condition of European countries is getting bigger instead of getting smaller due to the euro (mainly) but not only.

Hardly. The countries that aren't doing well now were economic basketcases 40 years ago.

Ireland for example was crushingly poor in 1973 - it's now one of the wealthiest countries in Europe.

The gap is there, but it's closing.
TheOther 5 | 3,646
22 Apr 2013  #9
there is reason for their economy to blossom.

Germany was the number one export nation of the world when the DM was still in use. Their economy boomed no matter which currency they used simply because they have good products and services. All this finger pointing in Germany's direction is just a distraction of the local politicians who are responsible for the mess their countries are in.

That is the myth.

I would love to see what happens if Germany leaves the EU. In my opinion there is a real chance for that because many Germans are completely fed up with the union.
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
22 Apr 2013  #10
Hardly. The countries that aren't doing well now were economic basketcases 40 years ago.

What 1973 has to do with 2013?
As for now in the EU there are a different economies and different systems by and by. Also introducing common currency with Central Bank was more of the political decision than economical. Not to forget that the world do not end with the EU there are others players in the game.

The problem is that system do not work and will not work. The EU is a good idea as a means of economical coordination between the nations and as a common duty free marked but closed for outsiders.

That could work given right organization. All those bureaucratic overburden and all those political directives should end up in the bin, they are redundant. If that would work in the future the EU could become something more but not very soon.

The problem is that the EU is seen by some as a means to the end and as project for Europe's future.

Ireland for example was crushingly poor in 1973 - it's now one of the wealthiest countries in Europe.

Well Ireland is a different issue here a bit more complex to explain than simple accession to the EU.

The gap is there, but it's closing.

Really - tell it to Greece or Spain, but in the first place tell it to Poland.

German is the strongest economy and is the main benefactor of the EU. All politician and all the EU eurocrats are responsible for the mess in the EU countries - there is no point in blaming local politicians.

I would love to see what happens if Germany leaves the EU.

Oh just cut the crap will you. you know very well that those Germans that are talking about it do not have a say in Germany politics and they are on the fringe of politics.

The general public in Germany will continue to see nothing wrong in the EU unlit they would be hit by crisis or other financial disaster - then they really consider other option. As for now they are just like fatties in the candy shop!
TheOther 5 | 3,646
22 Apr 2013  #11
you know very well that those Germans that are talking about it do not have a say in Germany politics and they are on the fringe of politics.

Since you quoted the Telegraph (cough, cough...): "The latest ZDF poll shows that 65pc of Germans think the euro is damaging, and 49pc think Germany would be better outside the EU. "

telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/9920666/Germanys-anti-euro-party-is-a-nasty-shock-for-Angela-Mer kel.html
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
23 Apr 2013  #12
"The latest ZDF poll shows that 65pc of Germans think the euro is damaging, and 49pc think Germany would be better outside the EU. "

Maybe they believe in myth of the main net payer into EU.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 May 2016  #13
Merged: Neo-Marxist EU adopting totalitarian tactics

People wonder why the EU, who delcare themselves a bastion of freedom and democracy, are becoming so totalitarian. The EU was first set up as the Union and Coal and Steel in post-war Europe by Robert Schuman and other Christian Democrats to facilitate economic recovery and developemnt. however, by the 1980s, wehn PC began rearign tis ugly head, people of Schuman's ilk were no longer calling the shots. The views of Italian Communist Altiero Spinelli began setting the tone for things to come adn teh EU bece increasignly ideologised. He advocated the end of national states and a central Brussels bureaucracy ruling over federal provinces. He also advocated the abolition of national armies and the creaiton of centrally commanded EU Armed Forces which could be deployed against insubordinate former national states failing to comply with the Brussels diktat. In 2004 it was predicted that national borders would be done away with by 2014. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on one's point of view), no countries were willing to give up their sovereign statehood. Spinelli's name is not widely known and is rarely even mentioned in school textoobboks. But his legacy lives in the EU's dictarotial PC orientation, Brussels' obsession about suppressing Christianity, imposing libertine values on nations whether they want them or not not as well in their latest scheme to blackmail and fine countries for not accepting Mad Merkel's invitees.
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
12 May 2017  #14
[moved from]

the EU members are only good Europeans as long as Germany pays.

That is HS you repeat and repeat. That doesn't reflect reality of things. They would pay 1000x more if they would have to pay duties, traffic and taxes to sell their good into countries that had opened their markets for them. Also all EU countries pay into EU for the upkeep of the office boys - where do you think all that money come from? Germany? Don't be daft!

Euro has been good for Germany and their banks, not so much for Greece, Italy and Spain.

Real solidarity is almost non-existent.

Yes, solidarity embodied by Germany that is ruthlessly pursuing their economical interest regardless of anything else.

they will all be back to their old ways of fighting with each other like little children on the playground.

Do you mean war?A real peace keeping role as well as a stabilising factor in Europe belongs to the NATO or rather chiefly to the US of A.

In regardless to what you said about RM. It seems so to people with a red star tattooed onto their forehead and hammer and sickle on their rear end.
TheOther 5 | 3,646
12 May 2017  #15
Also all EU countries pay into EU for the upkeep of the office boys - where do you think all that money come from?

statista.com/statistics/316691/european-union-eu-budget-share-of-contributions/

Subtract the British contribution and you'll know who's really paying for the party.

sell their good into countries that had opened their markets for them ... pursuing their economical interest regardless ...

And? That's a two-way street, my friend. Germany has opened its market to the other EU members as well, and they're all more than happy to pursue their own economic interests. Trade is not a charity, it's a competition - and Germany just happens to be particularly good at it. Not because they are ruthless (they are, of course, just like everybody else in capitalism), but because they manufacture products that other countries want.

Euro has been good for Germany and their banks

The Euro was a French idea. They insisted that the Germans give up their Deutsche Mark before they gave their final okay for the German reunification. Stop pretrending that the Euro was somehow a German invention to control Europe. It was not, and the vast majority of Germans didn't want that crappy currency.

It seems so to people with a red star tattooed onto their forehead

Ha ha ha. Only people with a little swastika on their forehead say that... ;)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
12 May 2017  #16
but because they manufacture products that other countries want.

And they understand labour relations. Germany was able to quickly grasp that cooperation meant the success of the business in the long run, hence why their system of trade unions is so successful against the miserable failure that is the French and Polish unions.

Look at how Germany actually produces things. They value technical education (unlike Poland), they value education (unlike Poland) and they value a system in which getting the job done is the most important thing. They don't make excuses, or slack off because they're not paid enough in their minds. That sense of duty is exactly why the average Polish worker is far less productive than the average German one.

It's also worth pointing out that some of the barriers to productivity could be ended tomorrow by PiS if they wanted to.

The Euro was a French idea.

Yup. They knew fine well that Germany was going to receive a huge boost in the workforce from East Germany, and the only way to counteract that was to force the Germans to give up control of their currency. Let's not kid ourselves, the Euro is a French project that tied Germany down. Nothing more, nothing less.
Lyzko 20 | 6,350
12 May 2017  #17
Regarding present-day Germany, she remains more or less the economic engine of Continent, no longer the "sick man" of Europe! Therefore, to my mind it would be an unconscionable mistake in economic policy if the Federal Republic ever decided to withdraw from the EU, almost as contentious a move as allowing Turkey to enter, although with the current situation, this is surely nor likely to happen, at least in our generation:-)

The German government must continue to stay the course and lead in a positive direction, the ship of state being ever buffeted by the storms of infighting which plague Bruxelles, now more than ever!
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
12 May 2017  #18
Subtract the British contribution and you'll know who's really paying for the party.

What party? Do you think that bc some countries pay more into EU those money are somehow redisposed evenly among all the member states? Nothing could be further from the truth. German gets those money, France every freaking EU country gets some money from the EU.

Give you a hint. From 2004 to 2014 Poland received from the EU 250,000,000,000 zloty. About 25,000,000,000 zloty per year. Not to mention cost of those 'grant' from the EU. There need to be a plan in place plus half of the 'given' sum (mostly loan from a German bank). That is only a beginning. Those so called EU funds are a badly concealed propaganda tool as much as a bribe for some whoores of politicians and such. Add to those a multitude of directives laws coming from EU that Poland has to implement. That is only a top of an iceberg.

Germany has opened its market to the other EU members as well

Really? Germany has 40 years of building up their economy and firms, the Marshall plan. What about Poland? Soviet occupation, ruled by the soviet secret police or what have you long after 1989 - talking about fair competition? BS.

I'm talking about North stream - that is advantageous to Germany but disadvantageous for others. Where is solidarity? Russia banning import of food from Poland? France and others EU countries jumped right in to take the advantage of that. Where was solidarity.

You're a victim of propaganda, dude.

The Euro was a French idea.

What difference does it make whose idea it was? Euro works for Germany and that is an observation and a fact. go and argue with facts.
TheOther 5 | 3,646
13 May 2017  #19
every freaking EU country gets some money from the EU.

... and Poland gets by far the most. Why do you think that is?

Euro works for Germany and that is an observation and a fact

Yes, the Euro works for Germany. So did the Deutsche Mark. And why? Because the German industry is innovative, competitive and top notch in technological terms. The German workforce is (for the most part) highly educated and motivated. Germany is one of the leading technological and economic powerhouses in the world. Why do you blame them for that achievement? Nobody is preventing Poland from doing the same.

Soviet occupation,

Same as in Germany, remember? Reunification was a major undertaking that took almost 30 years and still isn't finished. To this very day Germans pay a "Solidarity tax" to fund the modernization in the east. Who is helping Poland to overcome the commie times? That's right, the EU.

Where is solidarity?

The "solidarity" is shown in the form of cold hard cash that flows from Brussels to Warsaw. If you expect other countries to take one for the team (i.e., Poland) though, then you will be in for a big surprise. Not going to happen. Never has, never will. In capitalism it's sink or swim.
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
13 May 2017  #20
and Poland gets by far the most.

Really? Somehow I doubt that. Care to provide numbers? Talk is cheap!

"And why?"
Why German economy get that incredible boost in few last decades? Coincidence? How about a huge wide open market next to the country!
Marshal plan, and 50 years of USA protection.
Stop talking slogans and talk fact and numbers.

Same as in Germany,

Not the same as in Germany you clown! Spot the difference.

Nobody is helping Poland you moron, Poland is being expelled what is plain to see. Reading propaganda texts too much.

is shown in the form of cold hard cash that flows from Brussels to Warsaw

The thing is that this flow of cash goes both ways and the one going from Warsaw to the west is much bigger, than a trickle send to Warsaw.

Herein lies your answer.
You were the one talking about 'solidarity' back-pedalling now?
TheOther 5 | 3,646
13 May 2017  #21
Care to provide numbers?

Quick google:europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries/poland_en

(Scroll down to Budget and Funding)

Why German economy get that incredible boost in few last decades?

Because they had and still have the competitive products that others want. If it wouldn't be like that, Germany would be dirt poor and export potatoes.

Not the same as in Germany you clown! Spot the difference. Nobody is helping Poland you moron

I would really appreciate if you stay civil for once and don't resort to insults, okay?

So what was the difference between the GDR and communist Poland? The Poles could at least travel unlike the East Germans, and they were not shot or blown to pieces when they left their country.

If Poles believe that nobody is helping them, they should have a referendum like the Brits and leave the EU. Don't forget though to take back all your citizens that currently work in the EU. Got enough money for unemployment and pensions?

The thing is that this flow of cash goes both ways

There's way more funds flowing into Poland than in the other direction. That's a fact. Don't tell me you count the profits that foreign investors make in Poland, too.

Regarding "solidarity", this is what I said: "Real solidarity is almost non-existent." (post #14)
OP Ironside 47 | 9,628
14 May 2017  #22
would really appreciate if you stay civil for once and don't resort to insults, okay

Sorry the other. You have this rare talent that bring to fore my anger issues. You have presented a real stubbornness, obstinacy and selective even narrow point of view. Some Germans can be that way in my experience.

I the future I'll do my best to chillax.
Ta ta Need to read your link.:)
TheOther 5 | 3,646
15 May 2017  #23
Some Germans can be that way in my experience.

Obviously, some Poles and Australians can be like that,too ... :)


Home / Off-Topic / A false German policy in the face of the crisis of the eurozone.

Please login or sign-up on the main page to post in this category!