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US slaps Poland in the face (Comey Poland)


OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
23 Apr 2015 #31
Henry Ford was a great admirer of Hitler and supporter of Nazi eugenics.

THE GERMANS DID IT - SHOUT IT LOUD AND CLEAR!

At a meeting in March 1960 at New York's Waldorf-Astoria Hotel German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion exchanged pledges of mutual cooperation. Their pledges included taking the heat off Germany in Israeli media reports and propaganda (blaming the Nazis, not Germans, for the Holocaust) in exchange for Bonn bankrolling Israel. Following that meeting there was more and more talk of Polish complicity in the Holocaust and only rare mentions of Germany or Germans. Some mythical "Nazis" were to blame and it is rarely mentioned that Hitler had the support of 95% of all Germans (even more than Putin - 86%).

The point is that the German-Israeli backroom deal does not bind Poles or Polonians in any way. It is strongly advisable for us to constantly use the words "German, Germans and Germany" when speaking of the Holocaust and the German-conceived, German-designed, German-built and German-run death camps, gas chambers, crematoria, etc.

This is not to suggest that there were no individual Poles who collaborated with the Germans. But people of every nationality collaborated, even the Jews. The collaborationist Jewish ghetto police was often more brutal towards fellow-Jews than the Germans were. The Judenr├Ąte (councils of Jewish elders serving the Nazis) actually drew up name and address lists of Jews for the Gestapo which greatly facilitated their rounding-up and transport to Auschwitz. And the German-American Bund actually held swastika parades in New York City, and Henry ford was a great admirer of Hitler.

To Poland's credit was the fact that were no Polish SS units. There was no Quisling, Tiso or Pétain-style Nazi puppet regime. Poland raised the fourth largest Allied anti-German fighting force and fought on all the fronts of the war's European theatre till the last day of hostilities and beyond. Some courageous souls also fought against Poland's Sovietization and the last anti-communist partisan was captured in the 1960s. We should add that for its effort, sacrifice, loyalty and dedication Poland got treated rather shabbily by the US and Britain after it was all over.
Jasionowka2 - | 6
23 Apr 2015 #32
Polonius3 Most of what you say is very true apart from a little exaggerating about Germany 'bankrolling' Israel. Israel is a small country with few friends and we did eventually make peace with Germany. Menachem Begin was strongly against these economic deals with Germany and some say he quit politics after seeing German flags in Israel when there was a state visit. I remember as a child in Israel groups of us children being horrified to see Volkswagon beetle cars in Tel Aviv and vandalising them. However the rest of your comments are all correct. Anti-Polonism is closely related to it's older cousin anti-semitism. Please be clear that many in Israel are of Polish background and love Poland. Any insult to Poland insults us also. For many of us Israel is our mind and our soul but our heart will always be from Poland.
TheOther 6 | 3,664
23 Apr 2015 #33
Poland got treated rather shabbily by the US and Britain after it was all over.

You guys always forget that it was Britain and France which, for the sake of Poland (and their own imperial interests), declared war on Germany - thus escalating a regional conflict into a worldwide slaughtering which included the Holocaust and countless other crimes against humanity. Would you have preferred that the world had looked the other way after the German/ Soviet invasion?

This is not to suggest that there were no individual Poles who collaborated with the Germans. But people of every nationality collaborated, even the Jews.

Yes, we did it ... but others did it, too. Typical excuse for everything bad under the sun.
Jasionowka2 - | 6
23 Apr 2015 #34
Many of my family and friends' families were saved by their Polish Christian neighbours who risked their lives and the lives of their families to help Jews. Any Pole that helped a Jew was killed on the spot by the Germans. No arrest, no trial just killed. Yet more Poles helped Jews than any other country that Germans occupied. Compare to British Police in the channel Islands that eagerly collaborated with the Germans and shipped the Jews of the channel islands off to Aushwitz. Likewise the Vichy French actively helped the Germans, Hungarians, Ukrainians etc. Sure there exceptions Jedwabne etc horrific stories etc but this was the exception to the rule. Everyone knows that the Ostplan the Germans had was to immediately exterminate all Poles (that could not be 'Germanized') once they finished with the Jews. The Holocaust was meant to be the beginning of the story not the end. Basically alot of this anti-Polonism is just to make British, French and Americans feel better for their own weak efforts to prevent many deaths ie not bombing the train tracks and crematoria, not allowing Jews into Israel (then British Mandate). Accusing Poles of having anything to do with the holocaust is simply blaming a victim like blaming a young woman for being raped.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,258
24 Apr 2015 #35
You guys always forget that it was Britain and France which, for the sake of Poland (and their own imperial interests), declared war on Germany - thus escalating a regional conflict into a worldwide slaughtering which included the Holocaust and countless other crimes against humanity.

And that's a surprise! A big surprise!!! It clearly states that Britain and France are in the end to blame for what you call a "worldwide slaughtering which included the Holocaust and countless other crimes against humanity"

Why don't I see Harry anywhere near opposing this statement? Is that because you, TheOther, are neither Polish nor Polish-American? Britan and France tried to appease Herr Hitler by having offered him Czechoslovakia on a silver plate in Muenchen in 1938. That's why he did not have to invade Czechoslovakia, but was able to take the country over in a peaceful, almost friendly, way. But that didn't stop him to carry on an attack on Poland in 1939. And now you come and say that Britain and France should have not reacted against Hitler in 1939. As a matter of fact both countries did not react much against him in that funny war as the Frech started to call it ("drôle de guerre") since their aircraft were only dropping leaflets rather than bombs on Germany. But now you guys of the Germanic tribes of Europe which also spreaded to Australia prefer to rant about the "Nazi-Polish invasion of Czechoslovakia" or about the Nazi-Polish involvement in the Holocaust gladly forgetting to include the word "German" in your descriptions.
Harry
24 Apr 2015 #36
You guys always forget that it was Britain and France which, for the sake of Poland (and their own imperial interests), declared war on Germany - thus escalating a regional conflict into a worldwide slaughtering

Even the most casual reading of Hitler's writings show that war on a global scale was inevitable. The only thing that Britain needed to decide was whether to pick a side or sit it out (remember that Hitler considered the British to be natural allies of Germany and in many ways a role model for Germany). Your statement that the world war resulted only from British and French is ignorance on a scale that would make even Comey boggle.

which included the Holocaust and countless other crimes against humanity.

Nazi plans to 'solve' the 'Jewish problem' predated the invasion of Poland.

Why don't I see Harry anywhere near opposing this statement? Is that because you, TheOther, are neither Polish nor Polish-American?

Or perhaps because I didn't read his post until now. Perhaps that might be a more likely explanation? And on what basis or statement of that poster are you claiming that he isn't Polish or Polish-American? I've seen no statement in which he says he is neither of those things.

since their aircraft were only dropping leaflets rather than bombs on Germany.

I do wish you would stop lying about the British airmen who died dropping bombs on Germany in 1939, they were far braver than you will ever be.

And while we are talking about bravery, in this post you accused me of being a coward. I offered you a bet of 20,000zl donated to the charity of the winner's choice or a 'loser leaves town' bet. When are you going to respond to that?
jon357 74 | 22,469
24 Apr 2015 #37
Even the most casual reading of Hitler's writings show that war on a global scale was inevitable.

If they'd had better access to fuel supplies the world would be a very different place now.

Nazi plans to 'solve' the 'Jewish problem' predated the invasion of Poland.

Yes, the deportations started in Germany long before and by the time Poland was invaded the plans for ghettos were already in place.

What is truly behind that slap when USA behave so womanly?

No slap. Sometimes people are oversensitive and that is not a good sign. It makes other people wonder what there is to hide.

This is quite a good article about it:

Jan Karski ....now seen as a Polish national hero - delivered his first report to the government in exile. He described the Polish attitude toward Jews as "ruthless, often without pity. A large part avails itself of the prerogatives that they have in the new situation . . . to some extent this brings the Poles closer to the Germans." Anti-Semitism, he wrote, "is something akin to a narrow bridge upon which the Germans and a . . . large part of Polish society are finding agreement." The truth is that local authorities were often left intact in occupied Poland, and many officials exploited their power in ways that proved fatal to their Jewish constituents.

washingtonpost.com/opinions/confronting-chilling-truths-about-polands-wartime-history/2015/04/21/f0588dce-e782-11e4-aae1-d642717d8afa_story.html
Lyzko 45 | 9,513
24 Apr 2015 #38
"All that is necessary for evil to take root is for good people to do NOTHING." - anonymous

Far too many Poles were bystanders. Others active participants. Same in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Romania:-)
Ziemowit 14 | 4,258
24 Apr 2015 #39
@ Lyzko
I think we should make a clear distinction between complicity and bystanding. While complicity of people of the said nations (but not only those nations) with the Germans in the Holocaust was most vile and heinous, you can't expect people to be heros and act there where any help to the Jewish people was clearly punishable with the death penalty. So they say it was the case in Poland, maybe elsewhere in Eastern Europe, but not in Western Europe. Some of the people acted as heros in Poland and paid this highest price of their life, but there were of course others that volontarily cooperated with the Germans of the WWII era conveniently called Nazis these days. But please don't claim that far too many Poles were "bystanders". You never know how you yourself would behave if you knew you would incur capital punishment for your help to others. We are all worth what we have been tested for.
Harry
24 Apr 2015 #40
Far too many Poles were bystanders. Others active participants. Same in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Romania:-)

And every other nation occupied by the Nazis, as even Comey could tell you.
And, one very much expects, it would have been the case in all countries which avoided Nazi occupation (although the actions of the people of the small parts of Britain which were occupied: not a single one of the islanders joined German armed forces and the islands' Jews were not forced to wear the star of David).
johnny reb 50 | 7,428
24 Apr 2015 #41
Henry Ford was a great admirer of Hitler and supporter of Nazi eugenics.

I guess American hands where a little dirty too.
Thanks for bringing that up Polonius3
Read here:
traces.org/henryford.html
TheOther 6 | 3,664
24 Apr 2015 #42
It clearly states that Britain and France are in the end to blame for what you call a "worldwide slaughtering which included the Holocaust and countless other crimes against humanity"

Your statement that the world war resulted only from British and French is ignorance on a scale that would make even Comey boggle.

Guys, you two are like two predictable little Jack in the Box's - jumping up and crying on every occasion where you think someone is criticizing either Poland or the UK. If you would have actually read my post you would have seen that I was responding to Polonius' statement that "Poland got treated rather shabbily by the US and Britain after it was all over." My answer simply implied that this is sort of an ungrateful statement because the UK (and France) went to war FOR Poland, and consequently even endured a world war with all its atrocities. Which is a large price to pay to fight for one country's freedom and to stop a rabid dictator - like it or not. So do me a big favor and relax for once, dudes. You're getting boring.
Lyzko 45 | 9,513
24 Apr 2015 #43
@Ziemowit

Sadly so, and yet I would HOPE we'd challenge ourselves to do the right thing, even under such pressures to cave and do wrong!

Can all posters address the thread title please as I have just had to remove all the off topic posts regarding the Channel Islands
jon357 74 | 22,469
24 Apr 2015 #44
This Channel Islands stuff is a distraction however from the terrible things that happened in Poland, the locals selling water at barely believable prices to deportees while the cattle trucks were stopped at junctions, the people in villages who denounced their neighbours for the rewards of a bag of sugar, others who denounced their neighbours (and the denunciation letters still exist) for no obvious reward. Pretending that things like this did not happen does nobody a service and some of the protestations within Poland when a narrative emerges (as in the case of the comments in America that inspired this thread) that deviates from the national mythos simply look unconvincing and cause any intelligent observer to question them.

I've posted this before, but worthwhile returning to it:
Jan Karski ....now seen as a Polish national hero - delivered his first report to the government in exile. He described the Polish attitude toward Jews as "ruthless, often without pity. A large part avails itself of the prerogatives that they have in the new situation . . . to some extent this brings the Poles closer to the Germans." Anti-Semitism, he wrote, "is something akin to a narrow bridge upon which the Germans and a . . . large part of Polish society are finding agreement." The truth is that local authorities were often left intact in occupied Poland, and many officials exploited their power in ways that proved fatal to their Jewish constituents.

edited to remove a rebuttal of the Channel Islands nonsense that had been moved prior to me pressing post.
Jasionowka2 - | 6
24 Apr 2015 #45
@jon357 Your comments are all correct but personally as a Jew of Polish Grandparents I must try to look for good and not just concentrate on the bad. I must think of the Priest in my family's village who helped the Jewish inhabitants and not just the anti-semites who tried to undertake a pogrom in the same village. I need to think of the Polish farmers that risked their lives and hid my friend's father in a pile of cabbages for 3 years when he was a child of 7 years old. To this day this man who now lives in Israel sends money every month and food packages to these farmers' family. Many Poles were bad but many were very good the whole picture needs to be considered and in context. The Jewish museum in Warsaw is amazing and seeing classes of Polish children fascinated by the exhibits and learning and asking questions fills me with hope. The museum covers everything including Jedwabne, Kielce and all of the bad stuff and it holds no punches. I recommend anyone who visits Warsaw and is interested in these matters to visit this amazing museum. Your comments are valid but there is a larger picture. Your comments about Polish pride are also correct and about their difficulties in accepting these dark episodes but I believe that the Poles have come a very long way and there is hope and the future is bright.
jon357 74 | 22,469
24 Apr 2015 #46
I must try to look for good and not just concentrate on the bad

You are right and I'd add that we all must.

I must think of the Priest in my family's village who helped the Jewish inhabitants and not just the anti-semites who tried to undertake a pogrom in the same village.

One awkward situation is that those who control the narrative are happy to mention things like the former while emphatically denying the latter. The current issue about Comey's comments is part of that, sadly.

The Jewish museum in Warsaw is amazing

Same here - it's amazing. Poland's best museum.
TheOther 6 | 3,664
24 Apr 2015 #47
Interesting link regarding this topic (found on a certain other Polish forum...):

hungarianfreepress.com/2015/04/20/victims-or-perpetrators-hungary-isnt-the-only-country-haunted-by-nazi-collaboration
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
24 Apr 2015 #48
Poland differed form Hungary in many ways. An independent Hungary freely entered World War Two on the sides of the Axis powers. Its Arrow Cross Party was patterned on Germany's NSDAP. The Hungarian SS unit attracted more than 40,000 volunteers. And Hungary shipped its Jews to Auschwitz.... Hungary failed ot generate a significant anti-Nazi resistance movement coaparable to Poland's AK and did not establish anything akin to ┼╗egota to aid and rescue Jews.
Vox - | 172
24 Apr 2015 #49
Far too many Poles were bystanders.

Really? Says who? Shoulda, coulda, woulda! How old are you Lyzko? You sound like a kid.
Lyzko 45 | 9,513
25 Apr 2015 #50
I might ask you the same question there, Vox! Your ripostes are far more infantile; they defy both simple logic as well as historical fact:-)

You might want to consider to stop trolling!!
Dumnyzyd
25 Apr 2015 #51
Superpowers (in this case the U.S.) trying to stir up hatred between Jews and Poles. This has been going on for hundreds of years. The Russian empire the Germans the communists. Judging from many of the posts here many Poles still fall for this nasty Pole baiting. I like to think that modern young Poles won't fall for any of this! Modern Jews and Poles should be above this nonsense. We have a long history together some of it very bad but most good. We are cousins many have used anti-Polonism and anti-semitism to benefit their agenda we must all condemn this.
Lyzko 45 | 9,513
25 Apr 2015 #52
I agree. Sadly, this still isn't the case. While visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau only a few months ago, a relative of mine who speaks a little Polish merely asked a groundskeeper on the site of the concentration camp where the information office was, only to be met with "Why do you people always have to keep reminding us?!", whereupon my aunt barked back "Because you people will never let us forget!"

Tit for tat.
Vox - | 172
25 Apr 2015 #53
I might ask you the same question there, Vox! Your ripostes are far more infantile; they defy both simple logic as well as historical fact:-)You might want to consider to stop trolling!!

My dear fellow, old chap, why loosing composure and your nerve? It says more about you than me if you are trying to insult or belittle me instead of debating. I know you don't know much about facts or history and are able only to repeat few standard myths. However to stoop so low and resort to insults to hide your inadequacy badly reflect on your integrity. Personally I don't like to debate with clowns so I do implore you to keep the ugly side of your character out of this forum. By doing so you will perhaps restore some resemblance of decorum.

My question still stands. Who decided that Poles could do more to help the Jews? Some armchair warriors siting comfortably in the front of a fireplace 80 years after the fact? I'm sorry to burst your bubble but it has nothing to do with facts but everything to do with chutzpa!

I agree. Sadly, this still isn't the case. While visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau only a few months ago, a relative of mine who speaks a little Polish merely asked a groundskeeper on the site of the concentration camp where the information office was, only to be met with "Why do you people always have to keep reminding us?!",

Would that be the same relative who fed you to the brim with grandma's stories? It doesn't even make sense.
Wroclaw Boy
25 Apr 2015 #54
I guess American hands where a little dirty too.

Try not to think in terms of countries but rather individuals.
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
26 Apr 2015 #55
To what extent is the Polish language/culture still present in Israel? From what little I know on the subject, the Polish-speaking segment of society is dwindling as they age and go on ot their eternal reward. Are there still any Polish-langauge newspapers, bookshops, clubs, performing groups, Polish-language signs (Polska Kawiarnia, Polski Sklep, etc.)? Do the older Polish Jews who learnt modern Hebrew as adults speak it with an accent younger Israelis can notice?
Bialystoker555 1 | 4
26 Apr 2015 #56
To Pol3. I am a Hebrew speaker of Polish background currently in London. I have friends and colleagues in Israel in their 40s who speak fluent Polish far better than mine. Traditionally the children of those that came in 68 etc. had Polish Catholic nannies in Israel and the Polish language for them has been maintained. My secretary in London who is Polish and occasionally speaks to these friends of mine on the phone and she says their Polish is perfect without an accent and she is amazed to hear some of them have never set foot in Poland. To be honest however Polish is more spoken by the much older age group and you are correct it is dwindling, these elderly people do have a strong accent with their Hebrew. There are still such cultural activities but it is really to cater for this much older group, theatre etc. I don't believe the Polish daily newspaper is available any more. You rarely see Polski sklep signs like in London. However much of the Polish dishes have become part of Israeli cuisine anyhow as I'm sure you are aware. Serek Wiejski for example is identical to Israeli cottage cheese. British cottage cheese is sour and disgusting.
Vox - | 172
27 Apr 2015 #57
The truth is that local authorities were often left intact in occupied Poland, and many officials exploited their power in ways that proved fatal to their Jewish constituents.

Could we a simple folk ask for sources and examples of aforementioned events, Mr Expert? We would like to learn about facts.
jon357 74 | 22,469
27 Apr 2015 #58
Here's a few of references to that issue. There are plenty more survivors' stories very well documented. Claude Landesmann also discussed the issue in Shoah, as I remember:

For those who actually tried to enter their still standing homes after the Holocaust, many, faced anti-Semitic locals who prevented them from entering, -either because the locals had already taken over the premises, or simply to prevent the Jews from returning. This anti-Semitism extended across Europe, but was most pronounced in Poland. The Poles, even previously friendly neighbors, attacked the survivors who attempted to return

Jews were killed by those who had taken'formerly Jewish' property and wished to prevent the return of its rightfulowner and by wartime criminals trying to get rid of witnesses of their crimes,

academia.edu/3455834/review_of_Fear_Anti-Semitism_in_Poland_after_Auschwitz_an_Essay_in_Historical_Interpretation

Many survivors, when physically able, returned to their home towns only to find their property destroyed or taken over, their pre-war neighbors indifferent or hostile, and their communities obliterated.

sandrawilliams.org/HOLOCAUST/holocaust.html
OP Polonius3 990 | 12,349
27 Apr 2015 #59
All these things have occurred. Polish real or alleged anti-Semitism, take-over of presumably abandoned Jewish property (at that point no-one knew Germany would lose the war!), reporting hiding Jews to the Gestapo and similar Polish misdeeds have been talked about, written about, lectured about, documentaries have been made and in general the topic has been ridden and beaten to death.

What about the other side of the story? As I have pointed out, in Jedwabne during 22 months of Soviet occupation (1939-1941) Poles were hunted, persecuted and reported to the NKVD by Jews, and when Germany took over many Poles got even. Fair enough, except the Soviet period is clearly underreported. As is Jewish anti-Polonism and anti-Goyism in general. Why? Another example of censorship by the PC dictatorship? Under PC subjugation Orwell's words unfortunately ring painfully true : Everybody is equal but some are more equal than others!
Vox - | 172
27 Apr 2015 #60
All these things have occurred.

Did they? How do you know? Not from the above sources surely.

There are plenty more survivors' stories very well documented.

Are you referring to "stories" taken on face value and never properly verified?

About your sources:
1. The destiny foundation. Not a research or a historical project but more of a nationalistic propaganda, in their own words:

Our films and multi-media programming are designed to educate, inspire, inform, and instill asense of pride and purpose in being Jewish. To demonstrate how each and every Jew fits into the big picture of Jewish history.

The Talmud teaches us that anti-Semitism is a shortcut to fame but eventually it is a long road to Hell and destruction.

Yes, jon a great source of a mystical piece of Judaist thinking. What it has to do with history, objectivity and scientific research? Nothing.
Its reliability is very low.
2.

Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz, an Essay in Historical Interpretation

I disregarded that work for a sole reason that the author of aforementioned review wrote that Jan T. Gross is an outstanding historian. Most of the serious academicians do not regard Gross as a historian or at least do not regard his book about Poland as a historical book.

I'm not going to waste my time on somebody who is either an inept amateur or a biased and dishonest person.
3.
Finally, Sandra S Williams ( she is not a renown historian either but only as student in Student/Judaic Studies Program) The impact of the Holocaust on Survivors and their Children.

Her objectivity, integrity and a knowledge can be attested to by her own words:

These Jews had neither family nor friends waiting for them in their original homelands and communities, only unfriendly neighbors who feared that the Jews would ask to have their property returned to them

Poland, where they no longer found a viable Jewish community, and moreover, the Jews who had survived were still the objects of hate and murder by Polish nationalists.

Her knowledge of the contexts and reality in Poland at the time is astounding. No, more can be expected. In her bibliography she listed a book I have randomly checked - Polish Jews: The Final chapter by Earl Vinecour. The text is mediocre at best, it harps on some anti-Polish stereotypes.

In all your sources are focusing solely on the fate of the Jews without understanding of the wider contexts and circumstances. All of them seems to be unaware of the fact that about three millions gentile Poles were also murdered by the Germans, a number at least equal to that of the Polish Jews who lost their lives.


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