Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal

@Lenka

So chummy, chummy that our non aggression pact (which we entered because Britain and France told us to fu&k off), which was supposed to expire on August 23rd, 1949 - was abruptly terminated on June 22nd, 1941.

In total, our "chummy chummy" phase with Hitler lasted less than 24 months. What happened after was that he killed almost 30 million of our citizens.

You Poles invested a lot of effort into ensuring that Russia could not reach an understanding with the West, this being forced into Germany's embrace.

@Bobko
You know fairly well that Soviet soldiers (a.k.a the red army? With NKVD not far behind), decided to invade Poland right after Poland got invaded. One would think the Soviet Union would want to fight Nazi Germany while they were weak when going in their direction, problem is Nazi Germany invaded when it was "guaranteed" support from Soviet Union and thought that France and U.K wouldn't declare war cause of the invasion.

You overestimate Polish influence on the West.

We were a relatively "new" country back then: patched together from pieces of the lands of three partitions, quite poor with a large part of population living in abject poverty (in the part of Poland where my paternal grandfather's family comes from, people were emigrating to Romania (!) in search for better life), and torn by internal conflicts. Also, we were at odds with all of our neighbours, with the exception of Hungary and Romania, and had numerous but largely outdated army.

I'm afraid our diplomatic influence over anybody back then was almost nonexistent.

An ally of the USSR for longer than an enemy.... and the CCCP started WWII along with pal Hitler so stop with that crap.


primitive russian thinking.... truly incapable of envisioning other countries as equals.... no wonder everyone despises the inferior russian culture....

Two sides of the same coin really.

And r*SSians still delude themselves about victory in WW2, something achieved only with immense amounts of military and logistical aid from English-speaking countries. The r*SSians excel at cruelty however actually inventing things and producing them is where they fall down, one reason they're exhausted now.

All the scaremongering from them about hypersonic missiles (all British, French and American ICBMs have a hypersonic stage and have done for a long time) and their so-called 'satan' missiles and 'tsar bomba' that don't actually work. Pathetic.

Roll on the Challengers going into battle. Those and the Storm Shadows (and their French equivalents) will hammer them.

No, Tovarisch Bobko, they didn`t. Just like Soviets didn`t liberate us, they only chased Nazis away and introduced another totalitarian regime - communism. That`s why we should be grateful to them??? Amassing! :):):)


Stopped while possessing atomic weapons??? :):):)


Americans who possessed atomic weapons??? :):):)

etc etc
:):):)

I finally got to read the entire thread. I like it: it's pretty intense.

Many posters mention war memorials honoring the common soldier, in this case the Soviet Red Army. That they should be...
"...respected unconditionally..." "...war memorial removal seems wrong...considering the huge sacrifice involved." "...simple war graves are not a problem..." Constant posts mention the Red Army soldier who gave their lives.

I have to admit I'm comparing this situation with the one going on in the USA concerning memorials to the ENEMY --- the Confederates --- the rebels who wanted to destroy the nation.

Cemeteries to the rebel dead are both private and public. Just as poster in this thread say, let the dead soldiers lie. But things are changing in the USA. Monuments, streets, highways, counties, parks, military bases, etc. are disappearing or having their names changed. Monuments are being taken down if they are in public and if someone wants to pay to put it in a rebel cemetery then so be it! Most enemy (Confederate) monument are in public places. These are mostly paid forby taxpayers and many taxpayers are descendants of slaves. (By the tern "paid for" I mean the preservation and maintenance.)

A poster mentioned the point of having to see the hammer & sickle everyday going to work. That would be the same feeling of a slave's descendant viewing a monument to the Confederate dead everyday on their way to work.

So I take it that Red Army monuments are still around in public. My view is that they should be placed in cemeteries, specifically Red Army cemeteries. Not in public at all. A poster also said that memorials in graveyards are OK but everything that glorified the Soviets should be torn down.

But a few posters made some very inciteful comments.

Firstly, and most people forget this, WW II was STARTED by Germany and THE USSR. They were allied thugs!
Getting back to monuments, other posters said the Red Army suffered immensely to liberate Poland. Well all the suffering of Russia were brought upon itself. Don't you think? The Russians as a whole brought misery upon themselves. How come when the Red Army "liberated" Poland they did not leave like the liberators left after freeing Italy, France, Luxemburg, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. Instead the Red Army stripped Poland of everything and carted it back to help rebuild Russia. They then stayed as "liberators" for almost fifty years.

It's an UNFORUNATE thing that we have to leave Confederate graveyards in the USA and Red Army graveyards in Poland alone.

It's unfortunate because I'm going to express my opinion. Many might be disturbed by my opinion but so be it. All these graves, both in the USA and Poland, should be dug up, ground up, and used for road fill. The same for ALL the monuments. But of course, this won't happen. Why? Because it cost too much money$$$ !!!

Sometimes mention of erasing history comes up. Definitely not so. If you want to know about evil Confederates or the Red Army, that's why we have libraries with history books written by professional historians. You don't need a repressive (mostly ugly) Soviet monument or a slave owning rebel general glaring down at us. That teaches us nothing.

A few posters also mentioned that Poland has no reason to like or respect Russia. It's mentioned that Poland should not be grateful to anything the Russians did. Another poster said "The Russians are our mortal enemy and who should expect nothing less from them."

Well surprise! Surprise! These words are NOT harsh enough. Think about it! Do you realize that Russia has been a cancer on European history FOREVER !!! Whatever iteration it existed in, czarist, Soviet, Federation, IT HAS BEEN NOTHING BUT TROUBLE FOR EUROPE AND EVENTUALLY THE WORLD.

In the USA, for my entire life and the generations before me, RUSSIA HAS BEEN THE SINGLE GEATEST EVIL THAT HAS ANTAGONIZED THE WORLD.

Finally, one poster said that Polish people should not get upset. That it was a long time ago. That it was Stalin's time. Why dwell in the past? That it's so stupid.

I don't know if this poster was joking or not but he is very dangerous. It's people like him that want to forget the past. "Let bygones be bygones" as they say. Don't dwell on the past he babbles.

Well folks the past is history. Whether we like it or not that history shapes us today. That poster wants you to forget it. Russia evidently loves to keep repeating the past and along the way causes misery for many other people. It seems to be the nature of being Russian!

Never forget! That's why Russia is a cancer, SHE HAS NEVER DONE ONE IOTA OF GOOD IN ALL OF HISTORY. PERIOD !!!

Except defeat Napoleon and the Nazis.

Soviets lost 27 million people during WW2 according to most recent findings. However all these people didn't die 'to save Europe'. Soviet Union was very happy to tear Europe apart with Stalin's best buddy Hitler. They'd be happy to keep on doing just that while providing 3rd Reich with stable supply of war materials... but then Stalin got betrayed by the only man he ever trusted.

I'm curious how do Poles understand why Russia is so strangely powerful? By all indications the place is a dump, its people slaves, and the entirety of its history indicates that this situation will persist. How can it continually become a threat to others, when it is such a shambles?

How does an emaciated USSR "carve up" Europe with Germany (also, massively weakened)?

Do you think it's simply a factor of population size? Geography?

Do you have any Polish DNA?

What "good" has russia ever done that wasn't cancelled out by just as many (or more) very bad things?

The USSR removed Germans from Poland and closed Auschwitz.

After being German allies for longer than they were enemies and agreeing to chop up Poland like a cut of roast beef, Katyń, the Warsaw uprising and 44 years of economic exploitation in an unwanted "alliance"....

sums out to zero....

next?

@mafketis
History isn't a transcendental bank balance.

The USSR removed Germans from Poland and closed Auschwitz. Their Polish buddies gave me free K to MSEE education, free medical care, clean streets, low crime, summer camps, Palac Kultury, and, finally, in 1066, my passport to visit Western Europe.

I never felt exploited.

So what exactly should I hate Russians for?

Already addressed. and for the rest the PRL gave you a bunch of freebies for which you hate Poland, the same way you hate the US now.

You're a bitter old type prone to biting the hand that feeds you free goodies....

Says who?

@Paulina
Historians

@Barney, which historians?

@Paulina
Its just how history is studied. For example one event doesnt cancel out another

Wise words.

When we mention history, the question is always what history and who, ordinary men and women (or ordinary men and ordinary women), of science, of war, of money, of elites of underclasses or subcultures and of course trying to look at the biggest and broadest picture without stifling voices from the past that don't fit the narrative of the historian or their intended audience.

Barney is generally a smart fella.

Barney, I know how history is studied :) But the attitude of ordinary people towards a given country is usually the sum of all those events - positive and negative ones. Pluses and minuses.



So, when Novichok writes that "The USSR removed Germans from Poland and closed Auschwitz" - this is one "event". Other events - all the bad stuff that the Soviet Union did to Poland and other countries, nations and ethnicities doesn't "cancel out" that positive event (which is, obviously, an important one), but significantly lessens the impact of that positive event in people's minds. So, if the Soviet Union only defeated the Nazis and left Poland alone and didn't do all the bad stuff the attitude of Polish people to the Soviet Union and it's soldiers would be much better and the level of gratitude would be much higher. I think that's pretty obvious, normal, natural and understandable.

After WW2, the Soviet Union killed fewer people than did the US and its Western puppets.


What bad stuff? No bad stuff was done to my family or me personally. No, we were not members of PZPR or any other organization. Our apartment na Alejach Jerozolimskich 99 was better in 1946 that many slums in the US today.

In 1950, I got my first communion without any problems - if you ignore those children-eating Russian bears roaming the streets.
Bottom line: I would rather live in a town with 100,000 Soviet soldiers next to it than with 100,000 Somali scum in Sweden or 100,000 black thugs in Chicago.

@Novichok
Until Stalin's death this is not true.

The Rostkowski Building? A very nice apartment house indeed, and a very expensive one nowadays.

Not easy to get a flat there back in the day. Very few people there who weren't extremely well connected in the PRL years. Although not quite Moscow's House on the Embankment or the Zatoka Czerwonej Świnii, there were still some PZRR names there and not many ordinary Joes.

Many of the apartments are offices now, due to their size and the large rooms. You'll be pleased to hear that one apartment is the headquarters of the Kampania Przeciw Homofobii.

You aren't related to the late and distinguished Franciszek Mazur (born Lev Horodenko) are you? He lived in that part of town and there is a slight resemblance. Someone of his status in the party would certainly be able to get a building at a premium address back in the communist years. As I recall he was part of the Natolin camp. The biography I read (it was a while ago) said he'd been either a judge or a prosecutor in the Soviet Union before coming back to Poland.

We knew someone in common, a well known Professor, now also dead.

That sh*ithole? No elevator, no hot water, garbage thrown out the windows, smell of urine, 2 families with 9 people in four rooms...you can have it. But sure was better than being homeless.

Given that almost all of the city centre had been flattened to rubble, any sort of space was at a premium.

I doubt that the UK or the US or France could have managed any better given the challenges that Warsaw city centre faced after its destruction.