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Poland's post-election political scene


delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,382
TK and constitution must be abolished.

So you want a return to the days of marital law. Not only are you talking about PiS getting their boot boys to attack peaceful demonstrations, but you're now also talking about abolishing the Constitution. Treasonous, Communist swine.

its not democracy when few PO thugs are allowed to cripple legislation making process by parliament.

Which legislation was crippled? You seem to be making stuff up as you go along.

TK is commie invention during marshal law

Constitutional Tribunals are found in plenty of countries. Germany, Serbia, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Slovenia, France just to name a few.

Do what you want, but we're not going to let a bunch of Putin-loving communists take over Poland.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
12 Mar 2016 #1,383
So you want a return to the days of marital law.

Dr Freud, your patient is holding on line two....
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,384
Dr Freud, your patient is on the line...

They want a return to the glory days of when everyone was guaranteed a poorly-constructed flat, 2 weeks in some miserable osrodek and the right to be stamped on should you try and protest.

It's just amazing how easily some of them are willing to give up everything that people fought for, just because of imagined enemies.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
12 Mar 2016 #1,385
Which legislation was crippled? You seem to be making stuff up as you go along.

not legislation,but legislation making process...yet again you crippled brain cells struggle to understand simple sentence

Do what you want, but we're not going to let a bunch of Putin-loving communists take over Poland.

and we wont let english G.Glitters calling for violence in Poland.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,386
not legislation,but legislation making process...

You really seem to be struggling with how the Constitution and the TK works. I'm not surprised, given the average education of the PiS voter tends to be "some high school"

Try reading the opinion of the Venice Commission and perhaps you'll actually understand that PiS cannot cripple the Constitutional Tribunal just because they want to. It's an important part in the separation of powers.

Anyway, latest news is fun. PO will present a resolution in the European Parliament, which means that both the European Commission and European Parliament are now involved as well as the Council of Europe. PiS are pretty much isolated now - but hey, Putin's always a good friend. How long before Kaczyński meets Putin?
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
12 Mar 2016 #1,387
perhaps you'll actually understand that PiS cannot cripple the Constitutional Tribunal just because they want to.

Like talking to a brick wall Delph. But PIS do suffer from a collective low Intelligence Quotient so they need the EU to spell it out for them.

This business really is splendid fun!!
mafketis 24 | 9,385
12 Mar 2016 #1,388
How long before Kaczyński meets Putin?

The fun will be how they try to reframe the Smolensk narrative from evil Russians to an evil alliance of Tusk and Komorowski plotting against LK and trying to sabotage Polish Russian relations at the same time.

Not sure if AM will be on board for that one (though I can imagine JK going there in a heartbeat).
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,389
But PIS do suffer from a collective low Intelligence Quotient so they need the EU to spell it out for them.

It's amazing how much they've managed to create a cult in which people are willing to give up democracy for a politicalparty.

The fun will be how they try to reframe the Smolensk narrative from evil Russians to an evil alliance of Tusk and Komorowski plotting against LK and trying to sabotage Polish Russian relations at the same time.

I'm almost certain the work is just beginning. Look at that new "Smolensk" garbage (I won't call it a film, because that would be insulting the art) - barely anything is blaming Russia, but rather the viewer is led to believe that it was PO's fault.

Even Macierewicz is more obsessed with playing with toy soldiers than anything else.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
12 Mar 2016 #1,390
Dougpol1
another Glitter.

But PIS do suffer from a collective low Intelligence Quotient so they need the EU to spell it out for them.

bunch of EUnuch will be rightfully ignored.you Glitters,and your UB friends guys enjoy freezing ass in KOD demo.its all funny to watch on youtube.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,391
It's funnier that you're so disconnected from Poland that you have to watch it on youtube :D

It's even funnier that you don't seem to realise exactly how...dependent many people are on EU cash. Farmers are already angry over the payment delays - if they take to the streets, this government is finished.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2016 #1,392
TK

TK is totally wasteful and redundant, since Poland already has its Supreme Court. In the US the High court is all that is needed without amy need to create an additional feather-bedded bureaucratic moloch.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,393
Notice how you and other PiS supporters said nothing about the Constitutional Tribunal until PiS decided to attack it straight after the election.

As for "wasteful", why aren't you criticising the fact that PiS have chosen to spend taxpayers money in bathing the Prime Minister's chancellery with light simply to stop the Constitution being projected onto it?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2016 #1,394
why aren't you criticising

And why as a crusading nepotism-basher aren't you criticisng Mrs Rzeplińska who thanks to her hubby's pull landed herself a fat-cat consulative post in the CBA (ironically the brainchild fo PiS)?
gregy741 4 | 1,204
12 Mar 2016 #1,395
and his daughter is some chairman of foundation that received 300k dollars grants.she was there with komoroskis daughter and closely linked to gazeta wybiorcza.fok...anything you look close at is mafia ike sh.it in this country.

and those idiots there "defend democracy"
fronda.pl/a/nasze-corki-nasi-ojcowie-rzeplinska-i-komorowska-w-jednej-fundacji,61764.html
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
12 Mar 2016 #1,396
anything you look close at is mafia ike sh.it in this country.

Good job, you've just pointed out exactly how it is under PiS.

The sheer and total nepotism and corruption within PiS will set new records.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2016 #1,397
nepotism and corruption

Under PO we not only had widesrpead nepotism and corruption but also spying on journalists, police attacks on demonstrators -- protesting miners, Solidarity, Independence Day marchers, footie fans, etc. That beam is so large that it's a wonder you can still see the PiS speck.

Just realised the Good Book is probably noto on yoru reading list so here is an except from St Mathew who was chastising hypocirtes:
Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?
gregy741 4 | 1,204
12 Mar 2016 #1,398
Under PO we not only had widesrpead nepotism

yup...another day,another PO pig meeting with prosecutor..
Krzysztof Kilian...very good friend of Tusk and his personal adviser...paid himself and his friends almost 7 milions:

dzienniklodzki.pl/artykul/3766357,prokuratura-sprawdza-milionowe-odprawy-bylego-prezesa-pge-i-jego-wspolpracownikow,id,t.html
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2016 #1,399
Frasyniuk, who suffered immensely during the 1980's - has spoken out against PiS. His treatment after the end of martial law is well documented, including being kept in truly dreadful conditions in prison. His treatment during the 80's contrasts sharply with Jarosław Kaczyński, who enjoyed the fruits of his privileged upbringing.

- We have a contemporary martial law. The power, that raises their hand against the constitution when it comes to civil liberties, creates martial law - said Frasyniuk.- We had to deal with it before - he added.

And perhaps the most damning point :

Jarek, you stand there, where the ZOMO stood

gumishu 11 | 5,605
13 Mar 2016 #1,400
Frasyniuk

Frasyniuk is quite a shady persona - no one knows where his money early in the nineties came from
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2016 #1,401
I don't grudge him. He suffered immensely in prison - there's a fantastic article about it here.

nytimes.com/1988/08/30/opinion/on-my-mind-the-prisons-of-poland.html

I don't recall Jarosław spending a day in prison. More to the point, no-one quite knows how he was able to enjoy such a privileged upbringing.

(see the madness of such accusations?)
gumishu 11 | 5,605
13 Mar 2016 #1,402
as you probably know you can't buy Kaczyński - Frasyniuk got hold of enormous amounts of cash for a previous opposition activist in the early nineties which allowed him to start a big transport firm - how? where did he get money from?

he was very outspoken against lustracja - maybe there is a reason for this
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2016 #1,403
Frasyniuk got hold of enormous amounts of cash for a previous opposition activist in the early nineties which allowed him to start a big transport firm - how?

Nice try, but it's all explained here.

wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/1,129727,12806909,Frasyniuk_na_niemieckich_blachach.html

He came to the Polish after the fall of communism, he wanted to do business.

Pretty clear from the interview that he simply had connections that were willing to help him financially. It wouldn't have hurt him in the slightest to have been known as one of the genuine heroes of Solidarity.

as you probably know you can't buy Kaczyński

There are serious questions to be had about how he was able to enjoy a nomeklatura upbringing and even enter the path of becoming a public prosecutor. He isn't corrupt himself, but he certainly enjoyed an upbringing that wasn't obtainable by average Poles.

he was very outspoken against lustracja - maybe there is a reason for this

Maybe he simply understood that lustracja could only end in even more trouble for Polish society?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2016 #1,404
more trouble for Polish society

You mean more trouble for the red/pinko/foreign-itnerest-lobby IIIRP establishment and all the companies they set up by hook or by crook. Instead, they should have got an at least 10-year public office ban and the most senior of them should have been ordered by a court to pay financial reparations (garnished wages and pensions) to the Polsih nation whom they had oppressed and exploited for 45 years.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
13 Mar 2016 #1,405
Instead, they should have got an at least 10-year public office ban and the most senior of them should have been ordered by a court to pay financial reparations

I know you're not a fan of rule of law, but how could this have been accomplished without retro-active legislation (which would have had disastrous consequences for Poland's legitimacy in terms of attracting investment)?

Coulda woulda shoulda are the last words of a fool (as the song says)
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2016 #1,406
I know you're not a fan

I know you're not a fan of justice, so it makes no difference to you that the oppresesors made out better on the transformation that the victims they oppressed. Maybe the Americans were wrong to oversee de-Nazification in post-war Germany. Communism left in its wake a vicitm body count many times greater than that of Naziism/Fascism/Francoism/TIsoism combined.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
13 Mar 2016 #1,407
so it makes no difference to you that the oppresesors made out better on the transformation that the victims they oppressed

The purpose of the RT was _not_ so that Solidarity members (or former party members) could make a nice living for themselves. It was to change the system.

The sad fact is that more party members were able to think ahead while too many on the Solidarity side were still hung up on their ideas of a 1970s Scandinavian welfare state (not noticing that Scandinavians themselves had largely given up on it).

But I know lots of people with no PZPR connections who've done smashingly well post 1989 (and some former PZPR types who.... haven't). Correlation is not causation after all. The key to getting ahead post 1989 wasn't some shadowy cabal but flexibility and luck and knowhow in various combinations.

Maybe the Americans were wrong to oversee de-Nazification in post-war Germany

Germany had lost a war, that has nothing to do with a negotiated transfer of power.

Communism left in its wake a vicitm body count many times greater than that of Naziism/Fascism/Francoism/TIsoism combined.

True, but.... so? I've yet to meet a Pole who understands Marxist theory, let alone a committed communist.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2016 #1,408
flexibility and luck

I must agree with you here. Those PZPR members who had survived the post-war meanders (Bierut, Gomułka, Gierek, Jaruzelski) the 1968 anti-Semitic purge, the Solidarity revolution and the half-hearted kustration were defintiely survivors who knew how to scheme, which bandwagon to jump on, how to adapt and promote their own self-interest. I get the impression you feel the success they achieved through their adaptabiltiy, cunning and craftiness absolves them from any accountabiltiy for their PRL-era transgressions. In fact you seem to feel the RT clique is something to be perpetuated indefinitely to the detriment of the majority. I disagree. The successful have a moral duty to help the less fortunate. The fruits of transformation should be spread about more equitably, and people like Morawiecki seem bent on accomplishing that.

negotiated transfer of power.

Too bad the PZPR was not officially proclaimed a criminal regime. The RT clique quashed such initiaitves. After the last Soviet troops had left, Poland was under no obligation to keep pledges given to political criminals with blood on their hands. Police negotiators will promsie kidnappers, terrrorists and other criminals everthing, but once hostages are free SWAT move in for the mop-up.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
13 Mar 2016 #1,409
Too bad the PZPR was not officially proclaimed a criminal regime

How much economic gain would you trade for that? It would have killed economic investment (why invest in a country where the next government might declare your actions illegal?) and killed Poland's political standing.

There was no RT "clique" there were people who were in better and worse starting positions at the end of the PRL and those who made better and worse use of their talents and the opportunities open to them. That you hate those who were successful doesn't make them a group conspiring for your failure.

And of course the part of Poland with more German influence did better than the part with more Russian influence just the same way that Germany will always economically outperform Russia.

German and German influenced values of hard work and adherence to rule of law will always beat looking for the good Tsar whether it's Putin or Kaczyński to feed you.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2016 #1,410
economic gain

Indeed, your ilk only knows personal profit, greed and self-interest.There also exist such values (you surely call them meaningless abstractions) as justice, honour, dignity and self-esteem, but you can't eat, drink, wear, drive, smoke or copulate with those, so they are of no value, right?

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