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Poland's post-election political scene


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Mar 2016 #1,411
And of course the part of Poland with more German influence

Which is that ?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2016 #1,412
There was no RT "clique"

But there was, It burst into full bloom in June 1992 when teh backroom conspiracy was hatched. If Wałęsa had nothing on his conscience, why did he conspire with regime types, agnostic non-gentile intellectuals, PRL collaborators such as Pawlak and SB informer Moczulski? He was always at loggerheads with that crowd and suddenly he jumped into bed with them. It was his personal fear of exposure that made him switch sides.
Lenka 3 | 2,577
14 Mar 2016 #1,413
agnostic non-gentile intellectuals

I'm just curious which one of the above characteristics is such a bad thing that you list it along with snitches? Is it being agnostic, non-gentle or an intellectual?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
14 Mar 2016 #1,414
Is it being agnostic, non-gentle or an intellectual?

There's nothing wrong with any of that. I was only pointing out the sudden incongruity of Wałęsa, a two-fisted, Catholic, conservative trade unionist hooking with the leftist eggheads he had opposded a short while earlier. His war at the top was aimed mainly against the Michniks, Kurońs, Turowiczes, Mazowieckis, Wielowiyskis, Lityńskis and others of that ilk who he felt were trying to take over the Solidarity movment. He changed his tune for strictly personal reasons to stop the police files being opened.

If he had never spied, informed and received money, what did he have to fear?
pwe
14 Mar 2016 #1,415
sudden incongruity of Wałęsa

He hasn't changed, neither has his enemies. You don't realise what you have become.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
14 Mar 2016 #1,416
There also exist such values (you surely call them meaningless abstractions) as justice, honour, dignity and self-esteem,

No, justic, honor, dignity and self-esteem are great values. They are also not ultimately served by retro-active legislation which degrades all those fine ideas. Had Poland followed your and JK's preferred policies it would be worse off than Romania or Bulgaria are now instead of the biggest economic success story in the region.

Again, dissatisfaction with PO was largely a function of progress (people get impatient for even more rapid progress and ruling parties tend to get lazy and bloated). Unfortunately the current government is all about the past and its decisions will not be good for the economy. If Polish people are fine with going back to 1992 living standards in order to rewrite history then.... they'll get 1992 (or 1982) living standards.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
14 Mar 2016 #1,417
retro-active legislation

One can only build on a solid foundation. A firm foundation is not one based on makeshift backroom deals (RT), unfinished business, unsettled accounts, lack of accountability and spray-painting the dirt or sweeping it under the rug. If injustice exists, it must be replaced by justice. If an informal, unelected clique have undeservedly received more than their fair share of benefits from transformation, that too must be rectified. It's as simple as that.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Mar 2016 #1,418
If an informal, unelected clique have undeservedly received more than their fair share of benefits from transformation, that too must be rectified.

How strange that you should say that. We've just seen Newsweek publish a list of how PiS members have been appointed to positions up and down the country, most of them without qualifications or experience and without any competition.

polska.newsweek.pl/lista-nominacji-pis-w-spolkach-skarbu-panstwa-i-instytucjach-panstwowych,artykuly,381794,1.html

Two hundred people of good changes

polska.newsweek.pl/lista-nominacji-pis-w-spolkach-skarbu-panstwa-i-instytucjach-panstwowych,artykuly,381794,1.html

Two years ago, PiS complained about the burgeoning Polish corruption and nepotism. Today, paid for by the taxpayer, PiS activists and relatives have new jobs.

It exposes exactly how PiS abandoned the doctrine of the independent civil service, replacing it with a system of political patronage in which people have to obey the party line or lose their job. The exact same system was used in the PZPR, in which people were appointed to jobs according to political patronage.

Now imagine how bad it is further down the line.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
14 Mar 2016 #1,419
unfinished business, unsettled accounts

In other words you wanted a violent exit with some innocent people getting killed just to make sure you got the s.o.b.s?

At the time there were two options (I know it seems different now with the benefit of hindsight)

Soft landing - letting some guilty off the hook to guarantee a peaceful transition

Hard landing - blood in the streets with no guarantee of victory

Interestingly, the country with the hardest landing form communism - Romania, is not doing better than Poland (far worse, actually) and was bled dry by real oligarchs and not the fantasy cliques operating in your mind.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
14 Mar 2016 #1,420
some guilty off the hook

Nearly ALL the guilty got impunity and used their contacts to cash in on the general confusion. The make-believe verification process let most PRL-era SB, police, military types, administrators and business officials move from PRL to III RP.

There would be no blood in the streets after the Soviets left Poland, because the army and security were under Wałęsa's command. It was only after June 1992 that he decided to play ball with the RT mafia. Once they got the ball, the PRL survivors and schemers ran with it, and their unelected shadow government have ruled the roost to this day regardless of which party happened to be in power. Now a chance to rectify past wrongs has finally emerged, and you can see the backlash it has caused: hateful, resentful, bile-spewing KOD losers who are not about to give up theri ill-deserved "gains" without a fight.
cms 9 | 1,271
14 Mar 2016 #1,421
PiS did not abandon the theory of an independent civil service - PO had 8 years to reform that and did not. I think a key difference though is thst people connected to PO were more likely to have some knowledge of the relevant area, whereas PiS politicians generally have little exposure to running complex organizations, people management, finance etc.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
14 Mar 2016 #1,422
PiS did not abandon the theory of an independent civil service - PO had 8 years to reform that and did not.

That is certainly a legitimate complaint against PO (unlike the dramatic nonsense that some clutch their pearls over). I am totally on board with a de-politicized civil service and can support any party that seriously proposes that.

PiS so far is simply cronyism on steroids.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
14 Mar 2016 #1,423
Sure PiS is not that great on maybe levels but what had been before including PO it was a real typhoon of corruption wastefulness, cronyism and incompetency. If you have been unable to recognize all that for what it was you have no room to pass any kind of judgment on PiS.
whocares
14 Mar 2016 #1,424
I am a little worried for Poland.

My concern is that PIS might alienate Poland from biggest players EU/US and other players like Germany and Russia.
I dont want a partition happening whether it be by land/money or something else.

I dont know how far the US/EU could go... sanctions, or something worst. Would they actually kick Poland from NATO?

If **** happens, Poland might have a few options
1)Increase relationship with Visegrad and must expand to gain more power/allies.
2)Improve relationship with Russia (but cautiously and slowly).

These protests and colour revolutions need to end, Only foreigners and powerful people benefit from it not Poland.
Poland must prevent violence or war at all costs unless its only option.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Mar 2016 #1,425
1)Increase relationship with Visegrad and must expand to gain more power/allies.

Slight problem : Czechs (by far the most powerful of the other Visegrad countries) have long memories of how Poland invaded three times within 50 years. Hungary is also run by Fidesz, who belong to the EPP and who will not get too close to Warsaw. Slovakia is left, but they have always historically been quite cold towards Poland.
cms 9 | 1,271
14 Mar 2016 #1,426
I dunno Ironside - that typhoon of wastefulness came att he same time as 8 years of good growth, rising living standards, outperforming many established EU countries and generally maturing as a country. i dont think that was all because of PO but If they were as bad as you say then surely it would not have happened.
dolnoslask
14 Mar 2016 #1,427
Or Option 3

Jozef Pilsudski (Socialist)
creation of an "Intermarium" federation, comprising Poland and other independent states located in the geographical space between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea and geopolitically placed between Germany and Russia. The Intermarium main purpose was to guarantee a lasting balance of power in Central Europe and to secure the existence of its nations against both western and eastern imperialisms.[6].

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski.

Take a look my grandfather believed in him and fought with him.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
14 Mar 2016 #1,428
i dont think that was all because of PO but If they were as bad as you say then surely it would not have happened.

Yes. This. They had many flaws but the country did better under eight years of PO rule than any other post communist government.

A lot of that was EU subsidies but at least PO figures knew how to play the European game while all PiS can do is alienate other countries. PiS is like Cersei on GoT "Everyone who isn't us is an enemy".
Ironside 50 | 10,940
14 Mar 2016 #1,429
Czechs (by far the most powerful of the other Visegrad countries) have long memories

What it has to do with politick, national interests and business - nothing at all! It is not a serious barrier to achieve working agreement. When it comes to Hungary there is abundance of a friendly feelings and goodwill.

he same time as 8 years of good growth, rising living standards

Do not forget to mention an unprecedented growth of the national debt. Poland is indebted as never before in the history ( except maybe for a spell of high life enjoyed by the landowners in the Greater Poland under screwed Prussian Kingdom rule - Napoleon saved those morons from themselves, see Les duex pays ont signé une convection de Bayonne,see sumy Bajonskie) if you think that selling out your assets for a movement of gratification to live a high life is a thing worthy pursuing and you calling it the happiness and rising standards ..... I simply disagree with such a philosophy.
whocares
14 Mar 2016 #1,430
@delphiandomine

I think that relationship between the people of these nations is better than you say (at least compared to other bigger neighbours). With enough initiative things can change in politics.

@dolnoslask

Well this is what some including Crow say.
Potential is to expand Visegrad and create this Intermarium (an alliance rather than federation of states prefered) or something like "middle Europe"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-Central_Europe
At this moment I see that including Ukraine and Baltics would be toughest.
And some Southeastern/Balkan states still have conflict from past (i.e. Serbia-Croatia).
We have plenty of topics about similar so I stop here.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
14 Mar 2016 #1,431
i support PIS but man,macierewicz and waszczykowski are 2 ultra idiots..if Szydlo doesnt kick em out of goverment,PIS gonna lose alot of voters.
Wulkan - | 3,250
14 Mar 2016 #1,432
polska.newsweek

Newsweek? Tomasz Lis is head jurnalist over there so not reliable source, next please.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Mar 2016 #1,433
Hahaha. It's the same old story with you and PiS supporters - you only believe what you read in the PiS-funded media.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
14 Mar 2016 #1,434
you only believe what you read

And you only believe what you read in the Michnik rag! How does that make you superior?

Newsweek

Unhreliable source. Like you they'll print anything as long as it fits the PiS-bashing mode.
Besides you're obsessing over three months, whereas the inmformal RT clique has ruled the roost for 26 years. There's far more cronyism, nepotism, corruption, fixed tenders and assorted scams to choose from there than in a puny three months' time, so go for it!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
15 Mar 2016 #1,435
i support PIS but man,macierewicz and waszczykowski are 2 ultra idiots..if Szydlo doesnt kick em out of goverment,PIS gonna lose alot of voters.

Szydło doesn't decide who is in the government. She even went missing for several days after the election when PiS openly were debating over whether or not she should be allowed to be Prime Minister.

Waszczykowski is a fool, and everyone agrees that he's out of his depth. I'm surprised he wasn't fired immediately following the Venice Commission's decision, to be honest. Macierewicz on the other hand is Macierewicz, and therefore he can do what he wants without consequence. The problem with him is that he'll also bite every time Russia baits him.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
15 Mar 2016 #1,436
Szydło doesn't decide

The last bit of PiS-bashing of the day? One wonders what the pretext of his first morning PiS-bash will be?
mafketis 24 | 9,387
15 Mar 2016 #1,437
Macierewicz on the other hand is Macierewicz, and therefore he can do what he wants without consequence

Macierewicz is to PiS what Polonius3 is to the forum, he can yell all his mad roundtable stuff at the forum people and there are no consequences....
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
15 Mar 2016 #1,438
Macierewicz is to PiS

...What Mefisto (or whatever) is to the KODerasts -- a wild-eyed fanatic of the Niesołowski ilk.
jon357 66 | 17,077
15 Mar 2016 #1,439
Macierewicz is to PiS what Polonius3 is to the forum, he can yell all his mad roundtable stuff at the forum people and there are no consequences....

And nobody takes either seriously...
pweeg3
15 Mar 2016 #1,440
"There was no ruling," Kaczyński told public broadcaster TVP. "There is no way in which one can talk about it as a ruling. "Nothing can be published. "It is in fact the private standpoint of a group of certain people who happen to fulfil the functions of judges * **

thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/244671,Kaczynski-dismisses-court-ruling-as-private-opinion-of-certain-people

I'm confused, why is the opinion of an unelected individual sought in this matter. Surely it is the private standpoint of a nobody who happens to fufil the function of nothing? There was no comment, there is now way in which one can talk about it as an an opinion.

Kaczynski, as an unelected criminal, doesn't have immunity..

Anything he says can be used against him.

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