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Poland's post-election political scene


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 May 2017 #3,271
he should behave like on

There is no law forcing a party leader to be PM. When SLD won Pawlak was PM, then Cimoszewicz and Belka. What personnel strategy a winning party uses is entirely up to them. And JK is every bit as entitled to freedom of speech as that bandit Tusk is. Who are youto deprive him of it?

I've been here since '95

Precisely, you missed the hands-on observation of PRL which would enable one to see the ploys and ruses rebadged former commies used to worm their way into III RP and obliterate any consideration of accountability. You couldn't see the forest for all the trees -- identifying as you did with one faction (the RT clique), you lacked a wider view of the big picture.

people to call you anything they want to

But they do. Po, Poly even Saint Polyanna (that's Atch's contribution I believe). And PiSlamic is not a name but a descriptive adjective. Just like 50-beers-a-night Harry or sodomistic Harry -- both publicly admitted to right here on FP.
Harry
23 May 2017 #3,272
What personnel strategy a winning party uses is entirely up to them.

And in the case of the current regime First Secretary Kaczynski knew that PIS would never be elected if he was the front man, so instead he hid behind a woman's skirt.

the ploys and ruses rebadged former commies used

You mean such as turning the national broadcaster into nothing more than a mouthpiece of their propaganda and refusing to allow artists to appear due to their political beliefs?

50-beers-a-night Harry or sodomistic Harry

Care to explain how that comment is in any way related to "Poland's post-election political scene" and not just off-topic ad hom trolling in open forum?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 May 2017 #3,273
First Secretary Kaczynski

Voters voted not for a man but for the pro-Polish, people-friendly PiS political programme. They thereby utterly rejected the preceding status-quo-upholding, foreign-itnerest-serving scamster regime. Somehow PiSlamic Harry has failed to explain how it was that after 8 years of PO misrule it became the only party not only in so-called III RP but in Polish history to suffer an outright defeat at the polls. The level of voter disgust and revulsion at the Platformer regime had to reach unprecedented heights for that to occur.

And it's Law and Justice leader (or chairman) Jarosław Kaczyńsk, in case you didn't know.
Harry
23 May 2017 #3,274
Voters voted not for a man

So why have instead of the promised government have they been given the rule of First Secretary Kaczynski?

And it's Law and Justice leader (or chairman) Jarosław Kaczyńsk, in case you didn't know.

He is elected in the same way as the First Secretary of the Party back when the Party was the PZPR that now First Secretary Kaczynski volunteered to prosecute the enemies of. And he behaves in the same what that the First Secretary of the Party back when the Party was the PZPR instead of PIS.

And here he is referred to as First Secretary of the Party, Jaroslaw Kaczynsk. All posts at PF "unless they are related to translations or explanations of the Polish language; or are posted in the Off-Topic forum" must be in English and neither "ł" nor "ń" are English letters.
mafketis 24 | 9,374
23 May 2017 #3,275
but for the pro-Polish, people-friendly PiS political programme

It should be noted again and again and again and again that KACZYŃSKI PLAYED NO ROLE IN THE ELECTION!!!!! He was kept well out of sight for the duration. Gullible voters thought that maybe PiS was turning into a more normal Christian dEmocrat party and many felt cheated by the cynicism involved of him taking over (and appointing MAcierewicz after promises he would play no role in a PiS government).

utterly rejected the preceding status-quo-upholding, foreign-itnerest-serving scamster regime

Every party in power for long enough sees voters turn against them, that's pretty normal (in developed countries established ruling parties sometimes lose on purpose to trim the party fat and get back into fighting trim). And note that PiS's numbers go downhill whenever they pursue their weird jihad against Donald Tusk. The question is will they learn from this or double down on stupid (I'm betting the latter).
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 May 2017 #3,276
neither "ł" nor "ń" are English letters.

Deficient keyboards cannot explain away Anglo-stupidity. Somehow other posters have no problem typing Jarosław Kaczyński. A text may be in English but foreign terms and names should be spelt correctly nevertheless, e.g. Führer, coup d'état, déjà vu, façade, caffè, piñata, Solidarność, Marshal Piłsudski, Poznań, Łódź, etc.
jon357 66 | 17,040
23 May 2017 #3,277
He was kept well out of sight for the duration

For the obvious reason - the guy is electorally toxic.

The more we see of him now, the more PiS is doomed at the next election.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 May 2017 #3,278
a reality I don't live in

In every country one can fucntion within elitist circles and say how wodnerful things are, but what does that prove? Does that provide an oversight of the nation as a whole? Do surveys provide the whole naswer? The memebrs of the RT clique use precisely the rhetoric you do.

One thing you have failed to address: is it permissible to have former communist oppressors and their famileis thrive, whilst their victims, those they beat, jailed, blackmailed or otherwise persecuted, including many of the 10-million-strong Soldiarność, can barely make ends meet or live on stravation pensions? The majority, contrary to your suggestion, are not lowlifes and work shrikers but often live in towns where Balcerowicz sold off or destroyed the area's sole or principal employer.
cms 9 | 1,271
23 May 2017 #3,279
And there are new employers there now. Actually making things people want to buy and paying wages and benefits at a level far higher than those rust piles they replaced.

How many of those Commie factories have you really visited in the 90s ? I saw many, in Poland and in other countries - they idea they could be viable is in most cases nonsense. Where they were viable then I would rate the Polish process for selling them in auctions off as cleaner than Czech, Slovakia, obviously anywhere in the USSR or Yugoslavia and about the same level of cleanliness as in Hungary.
gumishu 11 | 5,604
23 May 2017 #3,280
well consider this - I would use a quote because i'm lazy : "17 years ago the Polish government sold the Italian company 52 percent. Bank Pekao SA's share of the proceeds from the public money, PLN 3.4 billion. For those 17 years, only the dividends from the bank's business were Italian 24 billion; Other profits here are not taken into account, because it is difficult to estimate. And now they have sold the Polish government 33 percent. For 10.5 billion" - do you still think Polish privatization was clean?
cms 9 | 1,271
23 May 2017 #3,281
No, I said it was cleaner than all of its neighbors.

The price in 1999 was low because Unicredit did not have full control - Allianz had a large stake and the govt had a golden share. There were some other serious bidders including Citigroup who offered lower prices. I worked briefly on one of the failed bids.

There are many reasons it has gone up in value - for a start and a huge reason all of the zloty deposits there are worth more in hard currency than they were in the 90s. Secondly I think the Italians and Polish managers did a great job to position it with Polish consumers and small businesses.

The Polish govt has also benefitted very much from Pekao dividends and from the taxes on them.

Anyway, now Kaczynski can appoint some PiS official from the Parks and Gardens dept of Pacanow and they can do a better job than the Italians :)
gumishu 11 | 5,604
23 May 2017 #3,282
- I am not sure PZU and PFR have the controlling share of Pekao - PZU first bought 10 per cent of its shares and now 20 per cent while PFR has about 12 per cent - anyway PZU is run by professionals not by political apointees
cms 9 | 1,271
23 May 2017 #3,283
You can google PZU and PiS and read that while I am asleep and you can take a look at the sharp downturn on share price starting with Duda being elected.

To be fair they are doing ok this year - mainly due to changes in some insurance rules
mafketis 24 | 9,374
24 May 2017 #3,284
In every country one can fucntion within elitist circles and say how wodnerful things are

Not my case at all. I even spent several years working with a very disadvantaged social group. They had a very rough couple of years in the early 90s but they're doing a lot better now. I've only had very passing contact with anyone in any government.

is it permissible to have former communist oppressors and their famileis thrive

Again, prove crimes by people and I'm all for putting them in jail. But the only remedy that you'll except requires legal obscenities like retro-active legislation (probably where PiS is headed).

I think a good index is "Sprawa dla reportera". I remember when they had real stories about real hardships and victims of official (and private) misdeeds. On the last one I kind of accidentally saw it was reduced to trying to dramatize clearly very dysfunctional families (for example a village where two families were feuding over a fence).

Bring up real, concrete cases of heroes of Solidarity living on starvation pensions and we'll talk.
Harry
24 May 2017 #3,285
is it permissible to have former communist oppressors and their famileis thrive

Do you mean we should take away the multi-million zloty villas in leafy suburbs of Warsaw away from those who volunteered to do the dirty work of the commie regime?

legal obscenities like retro-active legislation (probably where PiS is headed).

It's not where they are heading, it's where they already are. The new law which limits directly elected mayors to two terms, imposed by First Secretary of the Party Kaczynski during his fifth term as First Secretary, is retro-active.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
24 May 2017 #3,286
crimes by people

Every proven TW (paid SB informer) should be penalised. Not necessarily sent to jail but perhaps have their fatcat pensions trimmed down to average level and assets acquired during the period of TW collaboration possibly confiscated in part or whole (depending on different circumstances). The assets should be used to compensate their known victims. Above all their collaboration should be widely publicised. Why do you think Schetyna wants to disband IPN? His party contains the most members with such things on their conscience. Maybe not Schetyna himself but Walęsa (Bolek), Komorowski (Litwin), Tusk (Oskar - for Stasi no less!), Boni (Znak) and many more. Each case must, of course, be thoroughly investigated so no innocnet people get punished.
Harry
24 May 2017 #3,287
Every proven TW (paid SB informer) should be penalised.

Why limit it to only them? Why not also punish the lawyers who volunteered​to prosecute the enemies of the regime and the 'journalists' who volunteered to spread the lies of the regime far and wide? Why should people like that live in multimillion zloty villas in leafy suburbs of Warsaw? Why not seize the fruits of their collaboration and give to the heroes who fought for freedom? Surely you would support that!
mafketis 24 | 9,374
24 May 2017 #3,288
Every proven TW (paid SB informer) should be penalised

Under what (non-retroactive) laws?

The assets should be used to compensate their known victims

Known victims.... provable how?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
24 May 2017 #3,289
Why limit it to only them?

Maybe you'd penalise doctros who worked in the communist state's hospitals? Or every worker in a state factory? The Romans called that reductio ad absurdam.

Even TWs must be investigated to see whether someone signed but did not sntich, or feigned snitching by providing false but innocuous information. Penalised should be those whose collaboration actually harmed others. Members of the SB, judiciary (like Stefan Michnik hiding in Sweden) and prosecutors who falsely sentenced patriots in some cases to death should be the most severely penalised. NAturally, all this should have been dealt with at the start of transformation, but the RT clique used all their clout to derrail any semblance of decommunisation.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
24 May 2017 #3,290
provable how

Cases, as I have pointed out to PiSlamic, should be thoroughly investigated. Recentrly a Pole was extradited from Austria for a crime comitted 19 years ago. And that was a common crime (murder). Crimes such as treason and political persecution should also be prosecutable even if committed in the past.
jon357 66 | 17,040
24 May 2017 #3,291
Why not seize the fruits of their collaboration and give to the heroes who fought for freedom? Surely you would support that!

I know one guy, formerly high up in the Party and both prominent and highly respected in public life, who refused to accept a villa in Zoliborz when the Party's assets were being shared out. Very few people in public life today, including many PiS figures and supporters, would be that decent and altruistic.

Most would be racing to chop the trees down on their dzialka.
Harry
24 May 2017 #3,292
Maybe you'd penalise doctros who worked in the communist state's hospitals?

No, doctors in hospitals served the people of Poland. The lawyers who volunteered​to prosecute the enemies of the regime and the 'journalists' who volunteered to spread the lies of the regime inside and outside Poland served only the evil regime. Why should such scum live out their days in multimillion zloty villas in leafy suburbs of Warsaw while, according to you, heroes of the resistance languish in squalor? What possible reason could somebody have for not wanting to see collaborators forced to pay for their sins and to see heroes rewarded?

Crimes such as treason and political persecution should also be prosecutable even if committed in the past.

Damn right! Let's get that scumball Piotrowicz out of Parliament and up before the court immediately: he prosecuted political opponents of the Party whose 'crimes' were things such as distributing Solidarnosc newspapers.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
24 May 2017 #3,293
served the people of Poland

Then whom did the SB and TW serve? People like Pawlak, Kuroń, Moczulski, Kwaśniewski, Miller, Boni, Cimoszewicz et al?
Harry
24 May 2017 #3,294
whom did the SB and TW serve?

They served themselves and the Party. Just as the lawyers who volunteered ​to prosecute the enemies of the regime and the 'journalists' who volunteered to spread the lies of the regime far and wide served only themselves and the evil regime. I'm surprised you don't remember.

Pawlak, Kuroń, Moczulski, Kwaśniewski, Miller, Boni, Cimoszewicz et al?

There are at least a couple of names missing from your list, the kind of scum who served themselves and the Party and now live out their days in multi-million zloty villas while heroes of Solidarnosc count their last grosze. Why won't you speak out in support of stripping those people of their ill-gotten gains?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
24 May 2017 #3,295
volunteered

Volunteering but not doing a thing did not harm anyone, so why the hang-up. Many of those observing PiSlamic on PF are convinced it is due to his the broken-record obsessive-compulsive disorder. He simply forgets he has typed the same thing 14 times in a single day.
Harry
24 May 2017 #3,296
Volunteering but not doing a thing did not harm anyone

The reason First Secretary of the Party Kaczynski did no harm to any members of the resistance is that his late brother was rejected from service. Piotrowicz can't even say that: he did engage in political persecution, so will you agree that he should face trial?

He simply forgets

The champions at forgetting are the likes of the lawyers and 'journalists' who loyally served the commies and now live in luxury villas and profess their loyalty to the PiSlamic State.
jon357 66 | 17,040
24 May 2017 #3,297
Volunteering

At least you admit this now.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
24 May 2017 #3,298
you admit this

I admit only that PiSlamic banging on about it reflects his obsessive-compulsive disorder, As his loyal disciple and admirer you should gently suggest he sees a shrink.
jon357 66 | 17,040
24 May 2017 #3,299
The Opole scandal is still growing, with several other performers dissasociating themselves and doing Przystanek Woodstock instead.Very understandable given the attempt to politicise a popular music festival.

At this rate, they'll be left with a couple of disco polo groups and an old bloke with an accordion playing Besame Mucho.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
25 May 2017 #3,300
PiS

Read it and weep! As predicted, the good-change PiS party's lead over the PO scamster grouping is inching its way up following a one-off margin-of-error fluke last month. The latest Kantar poll showed that 35% had opted for PiS, a full 14 percentage points ahead of PO's - 21%, Kukiz - 10% and Petru's N-word - 6%.

It appears the Polish nation knows and feels something PF's PiS-bashers do not!

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