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Do Poles in Poland really feel betrayed because there won't be any US Shield?


Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #121
only I fear Russian agents will again rule the country -

Jaaaa....these russian agents.....
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #122
You don't really believe they will nuke Poland any time soon, don't you?

so what was the threats of those Iskanders at the Polish border for??? to show a goodwill? - I just don't see any offensive measures Poland or America take against Russia for quite some time now

or maybe you think the shield was a threat to Russia - any evidence??

yes it was a threat to Russia's imperial ambitions - nothing else

are imperial ambitions essential to the Russian nation survival - guess not
MarcinD 4 | 135
19 Sep 2009 #123
it does not really matter - they have some of their strategic nuclear weapons aimed at some Polish locations for sure - an empty gesture

Of course they do, they would be silly not to. You hold onto all your cards just in case.

As for if Poland should live in fear - I don't think there is any possibility Poland will be attacked in the near future (30 years). Every nation is suffering economically, even if Russia were to conquer Poland, how would they be able to maintain Poland....they can't. There would be no point.

And anyway, as messed up as it may sound Poland's role as "the bullied" living in between Russia/Germany has now been taken by the Lativa's, Lithuania's and of course Georgia ect.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #124
so what was the threats of those Iskanders at the Polish border for???

A gamble against the Ami-missiles!
(I personally would had started talks with Castro instead...now that would had hurt them...)
;)

I just don't see any offensive measures Poland or America take against Russia for quite some time now

Trade is a better weapon than any isolation or agressiveness...believe me...
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #125
Of course they do, they would be silly not to. You hold onto all your cards just in case.

you are mixing approaches like hell, man - are you democratic minded or empire minded - there are plenty of people like you around I notice - many of them really admire Russia

quote=MarcinD]
And anyway, as messed up as it may sound Poland's role as "the bullied" living in between Russia/Germany has now been taken by the Lativa's, Lithuania's and of course Georgia ect.[/quote] - just for the moment - btw Poland may be viewed by Germany as their field of influence - co-opted by Russians -

Poland is much in the Russia's way to have Ukraine, and other former republic back in their sphere of influence that is way Russia needs to be able to pressure Poland - see current difficulties with long term gas trading agreement and the determination to build the Nord Stream thing - Europe just needs Russian gas - that's ok - but Russians do demand conditions: it should not run through Polish soil - and what does Europe - conforms - we can hardly count on solidarity from Germany, France or Italy
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #126
many of them really admire Russia

Or they just prefer realpolitik....

And honestly I can understand russian suspicion and wish for safe borders...everybody with an inkling of history should.
I don't think on the other hand Russia has imperial ambitions as the british, the french or even the german empire once had who were nearly continously in other peoples countries.

(Not to mention the french, german and once also Poles who couldn't wait for an invitation to visit Moscow and brought their whole armies with them...)
rychlik 41 | 372
19 Sep 2009 #127
Western Europe is angered at our dealings with the US and don't have a favorable view of Poland.

I respectfully disagree with some of your points. I still believe that Jewish Americans with signifcant influence in the American government are prohibitting Congress from abolishing visa's for Polish citizens. They have the most influential lobby group in America and consequently the USA and Israel are very tight. And it's no secret that Jews don't like Poles very much. There is no other logical explanation for it. Moving on... there is nothing wrong with doing business with the USA. I just think Poland should stop trying to support them whenever they holler. For example, helping them in Iraq was a great way for Polish troops to get experience in combat but installing the missile defense in Poland was maybe not the best idea. It would've been expensive and been a target for extremists. And I have nothing against Poland buying missiles or F-16's from the Yanks. A country has the right to arm itself any way it wants. And electing a more liberal government? Ha! Look at what liberal hippy bulls'hit has got western Europe into? Recession, debt and immigration problems. Poland's not doing that badly.
MarcinD 4 | 135
19 Sep 2009 #128
you are mixing approaches like hell, man - are you democratic minded or empire minded - there are plenty of people like you around I notice - many of them really admire Russia

It's foolish to think Russia is all of a sudden gonna put their arms down while America still holds onto theirs. I am a liberal but unlike my parents who are European Liberals, I recognize not the NEED for military but I understand how you use it for your advantage. I'm not gonna pretend like we live in a Utopia. Maybe as a Pole I should always be for the little guy but I at times resent how Poland always did what was politically correct. What did offering religious and culture freedom to others give Poland - nothing. The world has a very "bullied" view of Poland and maybe if we had done our own bullying in the past it wouldn't be like this.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #129
we can hardly count on solidarity from Germany, France or Italy

Not when you plan a Saakashvili-stunt....
MarcinD 4 | 135
19 Sep 2009 #130
I still believe that Jewish Americans with signifcant influence [...] Poland's not doing that badly.

Very good points. I agree Poland should "stop trying to support them whenever they holler". We should be better at walking the line of American ally but also allies with our European neighbors. Like posted a few posts up, Russia made conditions for oil connections not running through Poland and Europe agreed. You'd like to think Europe would have stood up for us.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,292
19 Sep 2009 #131
yes it was a threat to Russia's imperial ambitions - nothing else

are imperial ambitions essential to the Russian nation survival - guess not

Any evidence we have ones?
MarcinD 4 | 135
19 Sep 2009 #132
Poles act on emotion too much. It's in my blood as well, instead of playing both allies for our own improvement we react too quickly to one thing and burn bridges/commit too quickly.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #133
Well...if you know your fault already...the first step is made! :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
19 Sep 2009 #134
Not when you plan a Saakashvili-stunt....

BB the fact is Europe is not united, Poland couldnt count on any tangible support in any event. The only reason why Germany could count on support is because trouble would be too close to Paris and London.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #135
Call me naive but besides some terrorist nutters I don't see any threat for Poland at all. Poland is neighbour to Germany and in the EU, member of the NATO....

There is NOBODY in his right mind threatening you (or Germany for that matter).

When you think Germany would get support from London or Paris because of the proximity then take a look at the map... how far is Warsaw or Breslau from Berlin??? A whole lot nearer...

...French support...yeah...sure...
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
19 Sep 2009 #136
I don't see any threat for Poland at all

Russia wont die quietly you know.

When you think Germany would get support from London or Paris because of the proximity then take a look at the map... how far is Warsaw or Breslau from Berlin??? A whole lot nearer...

Which is why amusingly enough the first (and for some time the only) nation to give us tangible support in Russia decides to roll would be Germany, but thats one state not EU.

There is NOBODY in his right mind

You're absolutely correct, but then again Russian govt is not in their right mind by our standards.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
19 Sep 2009 #137
If it means anything Hillary Clinton, in response to the accusation America stabbed Poland in the back and abandoned them because of the scrapped missile shield, did say the US would never turn our back on our allies.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #138
That woman says many things and she tends to float with the breeze. Talk is cheap. She has taken a firm line with Israel on the settlements issue but they are just ignoring her.

She should stick to BJ patrolling, keeping her husband out of mischief ;) Now that cost the taxpayer a lot of money :(
rychlik 41 | 372
19 Sep 2009 #139
You'd like to think Europe would have stood up for us.

Yes that is annoying. You can't really trust anyone I guess. I heard some political analyst say that no country in the world, ever in history, has had the same interests in mind. Meaning we live in a selfish world where countries just look out for their own interests. But that is life I guess.

Now, why the hell are we discussing even the remote possibilty of Russia ever striking Poland with missiles? C'mon, I know they are a nationality with small brains and thuggish culture but I don't think they would ever actually go that far. Europe is interdependent- if one country does well than others benefit too. This includes doing business with the Russians.

I was wondering if anyone could answer this for me. Why doesn't Poland have nuclear weapons, considerring its history? And is Poland continuing to significantly fund its military? I read that soon Polands military will be volunteer service only. Like in Canada or America. Is this a good idea?
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
19 Sep 2009 #140
That woman says many things and she tends to float with the breeze. Talk is cheap. She has taken a firm line with Israel on the settlements issue but they are just ignoring her.

Seanus, she was being reassuring. What's wrong with that? Besides, the missile shield was a bad idea anyway. It sounds like Russia was using it as a provocation which would most likely mean bad news in the future. Maybe this is a positive development and shouldn't be thought of as abandonment and betrayal, rather, a wise decision that will promote prosperity in the region. The shield would have just caused problems, sounds like.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #141
Geez, PP, they talk of peace but it's NOT reassuring as you know, or should know, that it's all rhetoric. Maintaining tension is what they want. You can't put people in harm's way. Russia was bluffing, I think, but what if it wasn't? Many Poles would feel a renewed sense of fear due to Russian retaliation.
jwojcie 2 | 762
19 Sep 2009 #142
It seems to me that some Americans on this forum do not understand one simple thing:
This shield wasn't for Poland protection it was for USA (and maybe western Europe). Poland would be ON the shield NOT under. So it was Poland doing a favour to USA not the other way around. Deal was simple: Poland will let USA build long-range missile site, and USA instead will give Poland short and medium-range missiles.

Do I feel betrayed? No, because being an american shield wasn't my dream... But, the fact is that Poland by signing this agrement took political risk. It doesn't pay off. Turned out that USA is not reliable bussiness partner. I'm glad that part of polish politcal estabilishment has to swallow up that lesson.

PS. but I've to give some credit to polish politics. Long range and short range were two different deals, and in the end Poland still can get some lower priced Patriots which are important for our defence system :-)
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #143
I think a bad one for a couple of reasons

I read that soon Polands military will be volunteer service only. Like in Canada or America. Is this a good idea

Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
19 Sep 2009 #144
It seems to me that some Americans on this forum do not understand one simple thing:
This shield wasn't for Poland protection it was for USA (and maybe western Europe). Poland would be ON the shield NOT under. So it was Poland doing a favour to USA not the other way around.

Some people are too stupid to understand that.

and in the end Poland still can get some lower priced Patriots which are important for our defence system :-)

We can get much better deals in Europe with a lot of cooperation for our industry. Yanks will give us 5% lower price and then screw us up big time on the spare parts. Screw them, no more deals with dumb rednecks.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,292
19 Sep 2009 #145
Many Poles would feel a renewed sense of fear due to Russian retaliation.

And it will follow, be patient...
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #146
Hehehe, you some kind of KGB agent, CK? No, didn't think so :)
ConstantineK 26 | 1,292
19 Sep 2009 #147
Ah Seanus...unfortunately my malicious joy about Poland's failed attempt to secure its importance as european player are overshadowing by the regret for the abortion of this radar "affair" he-he.....In fact we, I mean Russians, do need this radars. We need as more american bases all over the world as possible....As you understand it, Poland is just insignificant episode, nobody cares about this flock....The real target is America; they should waste their fortune in vain attempt to change the world; we know perfctly that it is impossible, isn't it Seanus? All those events of the past year are just first steps on the way to ruin pax americana...YES WE CAN!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #148
There are those that are using America, yes, and Rockefeller has even said that he'd destroy America to achieve his objectives.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,292
19 Sep 2009 #149
There is no need in destroying itself...really it is not the aim. But its strength must be destroyed...week and devided US will be perfect conterballance for China. Actually nobody want here to destroy America, only proper humiliation will serve Russian national interests.

Just appreciate such variant for example: America is devided on two equal parts - South and North or East and West and of course Black and White...
Ironside 53 | 12,448
19 Sep 2009 #150
will

You cannot even build toiled and you want to rule the world, phew!

lower priced Patriots

Yeah!? We will have to pay for missals we don't really need, military industry in USA won again - bastards.


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