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Do Poles in Poland really feel betrayed because there won't be any US Shield?


Sokrates 8 | 3,345
19 Sep 2009 #91
this is just basic knowlegde that Poles do overstay

Yes, it also shows that US doesnt know how many Poles overstay in relation to the general populace which proves US mistreats Poles on absolutely no basis.

My uncle stayed some 4 years in NY after having travelled there on a tourist visa

My unlce was superman and farted out galaxies, my aunt was Jesus, want to exchange any more personal stories that prove nothing?

Bottom line US fvcks with Poles based on baseless prejudice and Americans themselves admit they have no basis to humiliate Poland like that.

The point here is that if US holds no statistics then it doesnt know how many Poles overstay in relation to how many Poles come in therefore there's no legal basis to the middle finger US shows us.

Personally i couldnt care less, USA stopped being attractive to us years ago but i object mistreating Poles because they're a convenient beating boy, they cant target latinoes, jews or blacks so they target the smallest of the groups and sincei it probably doesnt even create a problem in the first place they invent it.

Then they go to the news and actually say in our faces that they dont have any tangible reason to deny visas but since we're just Poles its ok.

At this point i really really hate our goverment for brownnosing those arogant rednecks.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #92
I think if America opened itself for Poles to work there now - as several European countries already did there would not be much fuss about it - cause destinations will be split - I don't actually understand what they fear for - or maybe it is not as good an idea now in the times of crisis
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
19 Sep 2009 #93
I think if America opened itself for Poles to work there now

Nothing would happen, everyone who wanted to leave Poland, left. UK, France, Germany these are today far more attractive destinations than US, no one would go there.

I don't actually understand what they fear for

Nothing, they "fight" illegal immigration, they cant actually target any large groups because their legally staying relatives will vote against the administration that did it so they target a group thats too small to matter and doesnt even add to the illegals issue.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
19 Sep 2009 #94
Central Europe

Eastern Europe ... ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
19 Sep 2009 #95
mapy.google.pl

Central Europe you uneducated tw@t :))
Wroclaw Boy
19 Sep 2009 #96
The Us are too broke and busy with Iran to consider Russia as a serious threat to the free world, in my opinion.

Maybe the US have just come to their senses and realised a missile shield in Poland is pretty much obselete when it comes to defending the US from Russian missiles.

Poles betrayed? what the fcuk do they care??
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #97
Gumishu, Kaczyński didn't help with his inflammatory rhetoric time after time. The man lives in the past. I'm not saying that Tusk should now accept an olive branch but tone it down a little.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #98
Maybe the US have just come to their senses and realised a missile shield in Poland is pretty much obselete when it comes to defending the US from Russian missiles.

the shield was never meant to be a defence against Russian missiles - for thechnical reasons - but you simply need to know these things to be able to judge
TheOther 6 | 3,674
19 Sep 2009 #99
Central Europe you uneducated twat

I knew you would answer... :) :) :)
Wroclaw Boy
19 Sep 2009 #100
what did MG this time to get suspended

MG suspended? about god damn time, that guys a real idiot.

I was just thinking about my last post here and realised its completely pointless as is this thread, as was the missile shield. Bush tactics, Bush tactics anyone, a blithering idiot with a rediculous idea and hes not even in power anymore.

A missile shield in Poland makes about as much sense as the Maginot line did in defending France from England let alone the Germans.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
19 Sep 2009 #101
I knew you would answer... :) :) :)

I know you will sooner or later go the way Mare-Gea went :)))
ConstantineK 26 | 1,292
19 Sep 2009 #102
Similarly they dont care about your feeling too .. Live with it . There isnt much you can do about it

Nope...quite the opposite, we are veeerrry interested and you shall see we will care about your feelings. All Poles should live with it! ;-)))
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #103
Gumishu, Kaczyński didn't help with his inflammatory rhetoric time after time. The man lives in the past. I'm not saying that Tusk should now accept an olive branch but tone it down a little.

I basically don't agree with you - that Kaczyńskis live in the past - with all of their flaws this is not true - btw what kind of olive branch do you mean - do you see any from Russia???

and I don't really get what you mean by imflamatory rhetoric - calling things their name should be imflamatory in your eyes?
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
19 Sep 2009 #104
Maybe the US have just come to their senses and realised a missile shield in Poland is pretty much obselete when it comes to defending the US from Russian missiles.

It hasn't much to do with Russia, anyway. Not officially. Hillary was just on saying it's about defending Europe from Iran's ballistic missiles. She deemphasized Russia and said the decision wasn't based on growls from the Bear. It was based on what is needed to defend allied countries from Iran's missiles. It isn't "scrapped", just amended. If the majority of Poles hate the idea anyway, it's a good thing our govt didn't implement it. It could have been the start of a period of tension. I would just assume not have the shield implemented the way they were planning if it's going to cause countries to invade each other or be hostile in more covert ways. I hope it's not too late for things to settle down over this matter.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #105
I see Putin agreeing to come to Poland and enter talks. I see Putin condemning the attacks on Poland in WWII. I see Putin backing off Poland after the missile shield deal fell through. I see Kaczyński being stuck in the dark ages with his morality and cheaply following the lie of the Georgian War of Aug 2008.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #106
it doesn't matter PP - America simply butchered much of sympathy toward it here I think these days - and every Polish politician in charge will from now on be very careful with dealing with America - disillusionedness disenchantment etc

the lie of the Georgian War of Aug 2008.

sorry - what lie - did Georgia attack Russia? did not Russians invade Georgia? did they not target Georgian infrastructure? did they not destroy the port of Sukhumi?

what I believe Sean is that Russians could easily avoid Georgian attack on Ossetia - it was however in their interest to have a pretext to cruch Georgians - as an example to others as well (say Azerbaijan) - as a postcommunist country Georgia is sort of riddled with KGB spies (there are no ex-KGB spies for the most part)

quote=Seanus]I see Putin agreeing to come to Poland and enter talks.[/quote]

again what talks??? about the Pilava strait shipping to Elbląg - this is so minor I can't find less of an issue in Polish-Russian relations

and God forbid, I am not a Russia's Katyń basher - in my view it is irrelevant to current issues

again - one can always enter talks without any intention of finding reasonable compromise - this does not mean a thing - just looks nice

I see Putin backing off Poland after the missile shield deal fell through.

I think you should inform yourself better sometimes Sean, you should read some Polish commentators more often - I personally advise you Rafał A. Ziemkiewicz in Rzeczpospolita online issue or interia.pl portal
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #107
sorry - what lie - did Georgia attack Russia?

Erm...I don't know about the polish commentators gumi but the international jury is quite clear in this case!

spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,641489,00.html

....
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is preparing the Georgian population for the planned publication in September of the European Union's report into the five-day war between Georgia and Russia in August 2008. The document is expected to assign primary responsibility for the attack on the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali to Saakashvili -- with the qualification that Moscow provoked him....

spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,630543,00.html

He gambled for the West's (yes, okay, the Bushies) support to get him into the NATO...and...well...he lost.

...However, NATO and EU experts have so far found no evidence to support Georgian claims that a Russian column of 150 tanks and armored vehicles had advanced into South Ossetia before the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali....

gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #109
BB - is South Ossetia part of Russia??? WTF were Russians doing on a territory of some other's state? Normaleweise one could state that Russians were an occupying force on its neighbour soil ? Don't you agree? If Polish troops were stationing in Hoyerswerda what would you think of that?

what I believe Russians new pretty early of what Georgians are up to - they were well prepared to counter them within some 16 hours (and I talk of land troops)

what they did is exactly what Americans did with the Pearl Harbour
ConstantineK 26 | 1,292
19 Sep 2009 #110
WTF were Russians doing on a territory of some other's state?

The same as Poles are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq....They defend native people of this land
Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #111
Gumishu, how can you blame the Russians for going into territories that have been striving for independence? Sorry, the Russians didn't invade Georgia, that's a lie. They didn't honour the pullout agreement in the beginning but pulled back quick enough, much faster than America pulled out of Iraq. They sent out a warning signal to Saakashvili.

Putin has praised Stalin before and often mentions that he was Georgian. He has nothing really against the Georgians per se, more against the opportunistic and brash Saakashvili.

What makes the loaded Polish press any better, gumishu?
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,594
19 Sep 2009 #112
I haven't heard many Poles who wanted this shield anyway. They want some peacefulness after 70 years of tensions.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #113
BB - is South Ossetia part of Russia??? WTF were Russians doing on a territory of some other's state?

If I remember it right the South Ossetians asked them to....they were scared of the Georgians....

news.bbc/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3797729.stm

...It came as no surprise when South Ossetians voted overwhelmingly in favour of restating their demand for independence from Tbilisi in an unrecognised referendum in November 2006. A simultaneous referendum among the region's ethnic Georgians voted just as emphatically to stay with Tbilisi.

Russia maintains close contacts with the leadership in Tskhinvali where separatists welcome Moscow's supportive stance. To Georgia's deep annoyance, most South Ossetians have Russian passports and the Russian rouble is commonly used in trade. ..

It seems the Ossetians want their independence, if not full scale integration into Russia...
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #114
they did invade Georgia - they did destroy plenty of infrastructure there including parts of Tbilisi airstrip - what is this if not an invasion? they were in the Sukhumi port to destroy its facilities, including the times of when they were supposed to leave - they were as near as some 40 km from Tbilisi - Putin has great deal against Georgia being independant from Russia and a corridor to tranport crude or gas from Caspian fields -

if you compare America in Iraq and Russians in Georgia it's pretty much unjustified - Americans are there for the will of the Iraqi government - at the moment the withdrawal (though perhaps not so much as before) would mean chaos and perhaps civil war in Iraq - it was irresponsible to invade Iraq - but it would be equally irresponsible to leave it now just like that

then you've got Russians in Georgia (some couple of weeks occupation to allow destroying of infrastracture and looting by Ossetian militias)

international humanitarian commisions were never allowed into Ossetia with the claims by the Russians that the Georgians purposedly killed some 1000 of Ossetians - maybe it was true - but we will never for sure know cause Russians never allowed international observers in

I am not making a hero of Saakashvili - perhaps it is even justified to call him a war criminal - but so is Putin - violence is not the way to go - and actually Georgians should have let the Ossetians alone - Russia did not act to defend Ossetians but to destroy as much of Georgian potential as possible - not least in order to give the example to other post soviet countries in the area (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan)

Russians are going to territories that strive for independence only where it suits them (it is their vital interest to destabilise Georgia so as to remain in the monopolist position of a gas provider to Europe (even if it is transit gas from Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan)

the same way you can say that Putin has nothing against Poland - he just doesn't like Poland to get in his way of building imperial Russia based on gas provider monopoly - that's why he needs to have ways of go round Poland with his pipelines so that Poland can be effectively blackmailed energetically into subservience

by the way the shield would be no counter-measure against Russian nuclear strategic forces - because of the nature of the shield - look for the technicalities to see why - Russians then threateden with deploying some rockets next to Polish border - it's just using a pretext - what Russia would lose in case of strict American-Polish cooperation is the potential to blackmail Poland into subservience and I believe it is one of their major politcal goals for the near future - though they need to deal with Ukraine first of course (next couple of years can see dramatic changes in the Ukraine)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #115
they did invade Georgia - they did destroy plenty of infrastructure there including parts of Tbilisi airstrip - what is this if not an invasion?

Well...put the blame where it belongs, to Saakashvili...he startet it all and reaped what he sowed.
His plan was clear...attacking, betting the the russian bear would move, then crying to Nato for help as in: "Look...this monster is bullying little poor, innocent 'ol me...you HAVE to come and help me....can I become a member in the NATO now?"

It didn't work, period!

No one with a brain cell supports this nut anymore...even his own Georgians have enough of him!

csmonitor.com/2009/0409/p06s15-wogn.html

...Tbilisi, Georgia - Tens of thousands of Georgians protested peacefully in front of the country's Parliament Thursday to demand the resignation of Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili. ...

csmonitor.com/2009/0409/p06s01-woeu.html

Mass protests in Georgia aim to unseat Saakashvili. As many as 100,000 people are expected to demonstrate Thursday against the president.

Seanus 15 | 19,674
19 Sep 2009 #116
It was entering foreign territory in order to restore public order and security. The UN does it all the time, albeit not effectively in most cases.
MarcinD 4 | 135
19 Sep 2009 #117
UPDATE:

Russia abandons plans to deploy missiles near Poland

Russia will drop its controversial threat to deploy missiles near Poland in a reaction to shifts in U.S. missile shield plans, a Defense Ministry spokesman said today.

Today, however, the Russian government sharply criticized Ahmadinejad for calling the Holocaust a "myth."

Great news all around, except for the Iranians. Obama really hasn't gotten enough credit when it comes to foreign policy
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #118
I haven't heard many Poles who wanted this shield anyway. They want some peacefulness after 70 years of tensions.

peace can have its price - wonder if those Poles are ready to pay that price - that poeple don't understand what is going around them is no news simply

It was entering foreign territory in order to restore public order and security. The UN does it all the time, albeit not effectively in most cases.

oh man - it was just a useful pretext - don't you think Russians had no chance to antagonize Georgians and Ossetians in the first place?? who did provide weapons for Ossetians to rise against Georgian state in the early 90's - Martians?? who did back them up? I firmly believed Russians deliberately fuelled the conflict. was Caucasus a void before Georgia become independent (if only nominally for some time because being run by Russian agents - see Shevardnadze)

Russia abandons plans to deploy missiles near Poland

it does not really matter - they have some of their strategic nuclear weapons aimed at some Polish locations for sure - an empty gesture
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
19 Sep 2009 #119
I firmly believed Russians deliberately fuelled the conflict.

Well Gumi...it's not only the Ossetians but the Abkhazians too.
They both begged Moscow for help against bully Georgia.
Both want their independence and take any help they can get and who want's to blame them for that.

I say...if you want independence for yourself and your own people you shouldn't deny it to others!

it does not really matter - they have some of their strategic nuclear weapons aimed at some Polish locations for sure - an empty gesture

You don't really believe they will nuke Poland any time soon, don't you?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
19 Sep 2009 #120
...Tbilisi, Georgia - Tens of thousands of Georgians protested peacefully in front of the country's Parliament Thursday to demand the resignation of Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili. ...

yeah I think he should go - only I fear Russian agents will again rule the country - it was not very beneficial to the country before - see the Roses Revolution - well Russians can have it different way now perhaps - will see


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