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Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment?


eastprussian - | 7
7 Jan 2009 #91
...ahhhh....

When Nordstream starts up, that would be a most excellent day, indeed.

...sure can't wait...bye-bye silly little annoying transit countries.

isn't that a pip?
Crnogorac7 - | 12
7 Jan 2009 #92
All this is part of a game of chess, and Rusi have the cannon (=gas) extra...

EU alone is shivering and it is paradoxical that it's pinning it's hopes that in future such things will not happen, on a direct gas pipeline from Russia - Germany, which is planned under the Baltic sea, how it would go around "problematic" Poland, Ukraine and Belorussia...

2

Former chancellor Schroeder is one of the major faces in Russian Gazprom (which delivers that gas), and that Gazprom is proudly prominent on the jersey of FC Schalke.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
7 Jan 2009 #93
And you think they don't buy them now?

Erm...they can buy what and where they want.
But the business between Russia and Germany is excellent!
As long as they pay they get their goods - that's the market laws..
You should tell Ukraine about these basics sometimes!

and it is paradoxical that it's pinning it's hopes that in future such things will not happen, on a direct gas pipeline from Russia - Germany

Not "paradoxical" - logical!
eastprussian - | 7
7 Jan 2009 #94
I suppose the transit countries would really miss those "transit fees"...

Oh well, no big loss at all for the rest of Europe. That is what this is really about anyways- transit fees, more like, the loss of THOSE prized transit fees that THOSE silly little transit countries cherish.

I reiterate....bring on Nordstream.
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
14 Jan 2009 #95
Europe gas crisis boosts Schroeder pipeline plan:
eubusiness.com/news-eu/1231466531.2/view

"Russia has set a goal at diversifying our delivery routes for gas," Putin told journalists at his residence Thursday outside Moscow.

"If we had already built this pipeline, if no one had hampered us, it would already be operating through the Baltic Sea."

That's why Russia cut the gas supplies (at least one of the most important reasons).
rdywenur 1 | 155
14 Jan 2009 #96
I am not familiar with Nord Stream but Nordstrom's can do major damage to my pocketbook. :P
blaze022 - | 7
14 Jan 2009 #97
i actually agree that the nordstream is a good idea,
If not for anything else, it will cut out the middle man, bring down overall gas prices as noone will be paid transit fee's,

It is not russias fault that the ukraine cannot pay for the gas they need,
Just imagine if they had to pay what the rest of europe pay,
Ukraine enjoyd the free ride they got from russia, and when they wanted the full transit price russia said fine, pay the full price of the gas, from what i understand of it....

Now it was fine for the ukraine to ask for the full price of the transit tarrifs,
Nothing has been said about that,
But when russia retaliated everyone had something to say.

Ukraine needss to pay for the gas pure and simple,
Yes russia was in the wrong cutting gas off so quick,
But the ukraine shouldnt have(suposidly) stolen gas, and they should have paid what was asked of them.
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
14 Jan 2009 #98
Environmental and geopolitical concerns mix in EP objections to Nord Stream project

The planned Nord Stream pipeline along the seabed of the Baltic Sea worries MEPs for both environmental and geopolitical reasons. In a report adopted by 542 votes in favour, 60 against and 38 abstentions, the EP calls on Commission and Council to be more actively involved in evaluating the potential environmental impact of this gas pipeline.

Copied from: balticsea.lt/en

Please pay attention to Rule 11 of [Privacy, TOS, Rules], which can be found at the bottom of the page.

REPORT: Environmental impact of the planned gas pipeline in the Baltic Sea to link up Russia and Germany
europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&reference=A6-2008-0225&language=EN&mode=XML
eastprussian - | 7
14 Jan 2009 #99
transit fees...nothing more.

Just bypass all the little annoying transit countries.
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
15 Jan 2009 #100
A report of the norwegian Fridjof Nansen Institute
fni.no/doc&pdf/FNI-R1508.pdf

Robert Larsson, Swedish Defence Research Agency
foi.se/upload/english/reports/foir2251.pdf

Excessive Pipeline Projects of Gazprom
eegas.com/export_plans_en.htm

Nord Stream and South Stream pipelines would have been unable to help Eastern Europe
eegas.com/wsj-0110e.htm

A collection of articles about Nord Stream, written by Grigory Pasko, a russian dissident journalist
robertamsterdam.com/cgi-bin/mt4/mt-search.cgi?search=pasko+traveling+the+nord+stream&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20

NB! Legal framework for environmental impact assessment has been established with the Espoo Convention
Russia has signed this convention unece.org/env/eia/eia.htm
but not ratified it! unece.org/env/eia/convratif.html
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
15 Jan 2009 #101
Environmental issues get a backseat when western Europe starts to freeze....
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
16 Jan 2009 #102
Western Europe (including Germany) is sleepwalking into Russian vassalage.

Pipeline politics? Russia and the EU's battle for energy
euractiv.com/en/energy/pipeline-politics-russia-eu-battle-energy/article-177579

A report concerning chemical weapons dumped in the Baltic Sea
assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc08/EDOC11601.pdf

Sea-Dumped Chemical Weapons: An Old Problem Resurfaces
wmdinsights.com/I23/I23_G1_Sea-DumpedChemicalWeapons.htm

Chemical and conventional ammunition in the Baltic Sea[
marbef.org/marbefwiki/Chemical_and_conventional_ammunition_in_the_Baltic_Sea

The International Maritime Organization has included the Baltic Sea on the list of Particularly Sensitive Sea Areas.
imo.org
Prince 15 | 590
31 Jan 2009 #103
Sweden will not rush into approval of the construction of Nord Stream project

bnott.com/5572.html

"We understand the need for the project, but we can not go against our domestic laws," - Kalgren said at a meeting in Brussels.

Earlier, members of the Swedish Parliament and government officials have repeatedly spoken against the construction of the North-European gas pipeline, because it is, they say, could harm fisheries and environmental situation in the Baltic Sea. Particularly dangerous dumping of chemical weapons of Nazi Germany, which can meet Nord Stream gas pipeline under construction.

Pohlatohlakas - | 19
6 Feb 2009 #104
We don't need this annual outburst of pipeline politics
spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/business/3322361/we-dont-need-this-annual-outburst-of-pipeline-politics.thtml

upi.com/Energy_Resources/2009/01/21/Nord_Stream_worries_St_Petersburg/UPI-27151232560830
jwojcie 2 | 763
9 Feb 2009 #105
Yes, it is, because when Russia stops pumping through Jamal and stops selling gas for Poland, then we will have to burn all the coal we've got...

But seriously, dear fellow citizens of Poland, please kindly
1. look at this:

eegas.com/fsu.htm

2. try to google a few minutes for info regarding Russia position in Arctic sea dispute
3. find out about amount of gas which could be under this sea
4. once more look at 1.

Simple enough? This pipeline will be build whether we like it or not. And it will be full of gas for a long time. The only thing we can do is to swallow it and join them.

PS. I'm not some Russia lover. I'm just rational.
Prince 15 | 590
11 Feb 2009 #106
Poland has cut off gas by Russians ... last country in EU without supplies... after Ukrianian crisise.

All other countries have gas, Russians don't want to give Poland gas we have paid for.

I don't want to think what is going to happen after Nord stream being build.

It is february and we don't have gas ... we have paid for.

unian.net/eng/news/news-299044.html

Poland`s national gas monopoly said Wednesday it is still suffering significant shortages in gas deliveries coming through Ukraine, long after a deal between Moscow and Kiev ended a bitter pricing dispute that prompted a temporary halt to supplies, AP reported.

Polskie Gornictwo Naftowe i Gazownictwo (PGNiG) is receiving only 76 percent of its total contracted deliveries

Ryszard - | 89
11 Feb 2009 #107
This 24% shortage is only mere prelude for what will happen, if the Ribbentrop-Molotov pipe opens.
In the meantime what EU is doing? NOTHING.
I guess, we'll have to take our part from German one - then the case will suddenly become the one of the highest importance. Of course, with Poland as guilty of all the mess.
Prince 15 | 590
12 Feb 2009 #108
Nord Stream is strange project.

First of all it is very dangerous for enviroment.

Secondly it is much more expenisve.

At the end it is political project. Russia wants to regian control over central and eastern european countries.
Marco78 1 | 15
12 Feb 2009 #109
I think North Stream do a good job! They build a gas pipe line to Germany directly from Russia,,, this is needed since the conflicts between eastern european countries blaming each other makes the supplies unreliable,,

is it only me who think its strange that suddenly now Poles, latvians, Estonians and Ukriainians seem to care so much about enviremental issues ???!! ,:-)

I mean they love there cole-plants, they love their overfishing and their dirkty cars!

but a gas-pipe - catastrophy! ,:-) LOL !

seems like its bitter to se their transit power disapair? ,:-)

===============================================

PS: I LOVE Poles! I just cant listen to those easterneuropean conflicts which are so without logic, without saying anything...

Russians, Poles, Latvians etc shoulc cooperate instead! I have many Polish friends and many Russian friends - they are VERY simular! and very nice!
Ryszard - | 89
12 Feb 2009 #110
this is needed since the conflicts between eastern european countries

Could you name exactly what kind of conflict restrains Gazprom from sending 24% of contracted gas to Poland now?

but a gas-pipe - catastrophy! ,:-) LOL !

Yes, catastrophy to the natural enviroment. In the depths of Baltic there are tons of chemical weapons from both World Wars. It's ecological time bomb, which should be someday disarmed. But building Nord Stream is not the way to do this, in fact it's quite the opposite.

is it only me who think its strange that suddenly now Poles, latvians, Estonians and Ukriainians seem to care so much about enviremental issues ???!! ,:-)

How about Sweden, are they disallowed to care about enviroment too?

PS: I LOVE Poles! I just cant listen to those easterneuropean conflicts which are so without logic, without saying anything...

Then start to listen carefully instead dwelling in ignorance.
jwojcie 2 | 763
13 Feb 2009 #111
As my previous post shows I'm somehow in forced favour this plan, but:

is it only me who think its strange that suddenly now Poles, latvians, Estonians and Ukriainians seem to care so much about enviremental issues ???!! ,:-)

The fact is, that the biggest obstacle is Sweden and their goverment. Eastern Europeans can only chat about it. Sweden has legal right and power to block this pipeline...

Secondly, just because we (Eastern Europeans) have some interests in blocking this pipeline doesn't mean that our ecological arguments aren't right.

Could you name exactly what kind of conflict restrains Gazprom from sending 24% of contracted gas to Poland now?

This thing is a little more complicated. Legally it isn't Gasprom but RusUkrEnergo fault. It is joint venture between Gasprom and some Ukrainians. Obviously Gasprom decideded to get rid of them. So with Mrs Tymoshenko help they've block this firm reserves in Ukraine.

Of course Gasprom pulls strings here, but leggaly Poland cann't blame them. Currently Poland is renegotiating original contract with Gasprom... As usual Gasprom is in better position, but not so good as it could be half year ago... Of course, as usual they want some strange stuff beside simple cash, but so what? The baltic pipe isn't there yet, so they can wish for something more, but they want get it.

One more important thing: Worldwide Crisis... There is slowdown in Poland to. Winter is not very hard. So, maybe, just maybe it is not so bad, that we cann't get all the gas we have contracted for this year? And we can even get some reparations instead?

PS.

PS: I LOVE Poles! I just cant listen to those easterneuropean conflicts which are so without logic, without saying anything...

Man, if you don't see logic in those conflicts then you have some homework to do...
Just simple stuff for start:
- Gasprom (yes, Gasprom) heats up those "conflicts" accidentaly before some important negotiations, this give them better position (because they have monopol in this part of Europe, so it isn't important how bad is their image)

- google for last year Gasprom victories, they've get pipelines in Serbia, actually they own Serbia..., they have some shares in Hungary I think and in Slovakia. Way? Because they want to have monopo, they want to block Nabucco... It is all about their monopol. Of course we don't want any kind of monopol. How logic is that?
Marco78 1 | 15
13 Feb 2009 #112
I live in sweden and I am possitive to North stream.. its some politicans who are against it. But mayority of swedes have no opinion about it

I have nothing against Gazprom monopol... there is always SOMEONE who is strongest! ,:-)

and its logic that Russia dominate those sectors., since their country is bigger than entire European Union...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
13 Feb 2009 #113
and its logic that Russia dominate those sectors., since their country is bigger than entire European Union...

Rubbish, Russia dominating the energy sector will terrorize Europe with its resources like it does now, this is why we oppose it and use the ecology card, since Germans apparently lack the imagination and agree to make themselves dependent on a partner thats so unstable.
Ryszard - | 89
13 Feb 2009 #114
Germans apparently lack the imagination and agree to make themselves dependent on a partner thats so unstable.

Come on, Sokrates - Russia won't ever do anything bad to Germany, since she will be afraid of being cut from delivery of exceptional and exquisite German goods. Don't tell me you didn't realize that?!?

And cheers for your goverment Marco :)
Sasha 2 | 1,083
13 Feb 2009 #115
Russia won't ever do anything bad to Germany, since she will be afraid of being cut from delivery of exceptional and exquisite German goods.

Richy you merely don't undertand the ABC of a diplomacy. If two countries get along well why should they do anything bad towards each other?! In your case considering that all Polish foreign policy is based on opposing to Russia, do you think you have any reason to expect some nice attitude from our Gov-t back? I guess no...

this is why we oppose it and use the ecology card,

And drive to Belorussia to fill your tanks up? Yes Russia is dominating... but isn't the prices they offer cheap? I would personally prefer to see our country not selling any resources abroad... so that you would "enjoy" the opportunity to check prices of other suppliers.
jwojcie 2 | 763
13 Feb 2009 #116
Ryszard, Sasha, it is not about "nice attitude". German is the biggest market for Gasprom, that is all.

Marco, if this pdf tells true:

sgc.se/nyheter/resources/IBP1160_08_final24apr08.pdf

"The unique situation of a high share of renewable and nuclear power in the Swedish energy mix has created a situation where the natural gas market share is weak compared to the rest of Europe, 2% compared to 24%, respectively."

then there is no danger for monopol in Sweden... Because gas is small part of energy sources. The EE countries have problem because gas segment is huge. Maybe because this small Sweden reliance on gas you don't fully understand EE problems.

PS.
No monopol is good for the market. It is not good for monopolist as well, what can be seen in recent Gasprom problems with output level.
Ryszard - | 89
14 Feb 2009 #117
Russia won't ever do anything bad to Germany, since she will be afraid of being cut from delivery of exceptional and exquisite German goods

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-nord-stream-dangerous-natural-23482/3/#msg602742

(just in case... and for those who wouldn't notice irony, even if they bump right into it)

If two countries get along well why should they do anything bad towards each other?!

No, really?? Let me see... if I remember correctly, at the end of 1939 Germany and USSR were getting along more than perfectly. As we know two years later, this perfect and everlasting friendship entered new, I'd say - very intense - stage.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
14 Feb 2009 #118
Why do you like so much to compare some bygone superpowers with the actual state of affairs? Russia is not the USSR, Germany is not fascist anymore. Both are run not by Hitlers (Stalins). Why should you expect any surprise? You still at the times of Katyn... maybe that's the issue.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
14 Feb 2009 #119
Why do you like so much to compare some bygone superpowers with the actual state of affairs?

Ja...a main argument one hears quite often but it get's tiring after 60sumthin years.
Welcome to 2009 Poland!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Feb 2009 #120
The fact is that Germany pursues an unreasonable and destructive policy, Russia is not a stable and trustworthy partner, its foreign policy of bullying and blackmail is nothing short of barbarism.

I have nothing against Germany assuming the role of European leader if it behaves responsibly, moronic actions that make Europe dependent on Russia are not responsible and should be opposed with all tools available or the consequences will be severe to the entire Europe Germany included.


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