Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment?

14 Feb 2009 #121

The fact is that Germany pursues an unreasonable and destructive policy,

Really!

and should be opposed with all tools available or the consequences will be severe to the entire Europe Germany included.

...then you better invent a better alternative to russian resources soon!

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

14 Feb 2009 #122

Norway, Poland, Georgia, increased use of nuclear power.

Really!

Making Russia a country we ought to be dependent on is extremely dangeous and unwise, they've proven that in the past few months.

Sasha 2 | 1,083

14 Feb 2009 #123

moronic actions that make Europe dependent on Russia are not responsible and should be opposed with all tools available or the consequences will be severe to the entire Europe Germany included.

Europe will anyway be dependent on somebody's natural resources, id est on some particular country. If not Russia then anybody else but I'm afraid that won't make them (resources) for you:

- cheaper
- guaranteed

Russia is not a stable and trustworthy partner

You mean so-called gas conflict? I see the guilt of Russia there pretty slight comparing to Ukrainian one. However I don't deny Russia played some negative role in all that.

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

14 Feb 2009 #124

Europe will anyway be dependent on somebody's natural resources, id est on some particular country. If not Russia then anybody else but I'm afraid that won't make them (resources) for you:

True but not on Russias, if they treat their law protected deals as bargain chips that means nothing will stop them from doing it in the future.

- cheaper
- guaranteed

Russian resources are no longer cheap and the price is growing and sources such as Norway are safer, there's no guarantee ever.

You mean so-called gas conflict? I see the guilt of Russia there pretty slight comparing to Ukrainian one. However I don't deny Russia played some negative role in all that

I see it otherwise, Russia instigated the conflict but Ukraine is to blame too, the point is that Russia could have played it differently, it could start alternate routes through Belarus for example but it didnt, Ukraine can afford to be irresponsible, Russia is a bigger country its actions have greater repercussions and as such more is expected of it.

The more power the more responsibility.

Ryszard - | 89

14 Feb 2009 #125

Why do you like so much to compare some bygone superpowers with the actual state of affairs?

Because it's right into bullseye example. It hurts, doesn't it? :)

Actually, in terms of guarantees there can't be less trustworthy partner than Russia. Not after what we've experienced in this winter. And we're still experiencing now: where is our 24% of contracted gas we should receive? No, don't answer - let me guess: it's Ukraine stealing it, of course...

Sasha 2 | 1,083

14 Feb 2009 #126

Russian resources are no longer cheap and the price is growing

Great times of the cheap gas (you meant gas, didn't you) are left behind. Now it's growing for citizens of Russia as well.

Russia instigated the conflict but Ukraine is to blame too

I agree in a way.

the point is that Russia could have played it differently, it could start alternate routes through Belarus for example but it didnt

She did. Seriously, or elsewise you would suffer a stronger deficiency. The problem is that the route through Belorussia technically can't ensure needs of all customers.

Because it's right into bullseye example

Don't give me your bull. :)

It hurts, doesn't it?

Well... only if you want it. :)

No, don't answer - let me guess: it's Ukraine stealing it, of course...

I'm not trying to talk you into. I wouldn't really mind, if you didn't buy our gas and oil. In this case Russia will have to get back to her industry which is essentially my dream.

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

14 Feb 2009 #127

She did. Seriously, or elsewise you would suffer a stronger deficiency. The problem is that the route through Belorussia technically can't ensure needs of all customers.

Eventually she did because people responsible for this mess realised they're not only playing with our gas but also with their economy but it also shows another dangerous thing, whoever pulls the strings in Russia now has little imagination as to consequence of his actions and thats bad.

lesser 4 | 1,311

14 Feb 2009 #128

Bratwurst Boy:
...then you better invent a better alternative to russian resources soon!

Norway, Poland, Georgia, increased use of nuclear power.

You overestimate Norwegian resources, costly resources.

You cannot blame Germany that Poland don't use its own resources or blocking nuclear plants.

Georgia have nothing but sand.

Russian resources are no longer cheap and the price is growing and sources such as Norway are safer, there's no guarantee ever.

If Russian oil would not be cheap then Orlen and Lotos would be more active in searching other suppliers.

Seanus 15 | 19,672

15 Feb 2009 #129

Georgia has nothing but sand? Eh, air bases?????

osiol 55 | 3,921

15 Feb 2009 #130

Georgia have nothing but sand

Mountains, temperate rainforest, vineyards, palm trees, glaciers, ancient buildings and stuff. Geologically it's quite a varied place.

lesser 4 | 1,311

15 Feb 2009 #131

Georgia has nothing but sand? Eh, air bases?????

This is issue of NATO not energetics.

Mountains, temperate rainforest, vineyards, palm trees, glaciers, ancient buildings and stuff. Geologically it's quite a varied place.

So, perhaps they will attract some tourists if this region become more stable. Oil and gas is missing and this would be our interest in this state.

Seanus 15 | 19,672

15 Feb 2009 #132

OK, it lacks the desirable features but it is beautifully situated and is not far from Azerbaijan.

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

15 Feb 2009 #133

You overestimate Norwegian resources, costly resources.

You overestimate Russian resources, costly and coming from an unstable supplier.

You cannot blame Germany that Poland don't use its own resources or blocking nuclear plants

No longer, you ought to read the press its officiall that we're getting at least two nuclear plants, Germany is going to become a place of redistribution and from there Russia will work to make us totally dependent on its resources, we do not want that and we're fighting that with all possible means.

Germany is utterly lacking imagination in this venture.

If Russian oil would not be cheap then Orlen and Lotos would be more active in searching other suppliers.

Its still cheaper but its getting more and more expensive quickly gaining on market prices, its a question of few short years.

lesser 4 | 1,311

15 Feb 2009 #134

OK, it lacks the desirable features but it is beautifully situated and is not far from Azerbaijan.

Only Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan would be interesting. Even Americans cannot deal with them. These states have too much in common with Russia and you cannot change it.

You overestimate Russian resources, costly and coming from an unstable supplier.

Russian resources are well documented and the cheapest on the market.

No longer, you ought to read the press its officiall that we're getting at least two nuclear plants,

Please... They were talking the same 15 years ago, 10 years ago and 5 years ago. They are liars.

Germany is going to become a place of redistribution and from there Russia will work to make us totally dependent on its resources

Poland doesn't use so much of oil or gas to be worried. We should not change this and finally start to use own resources. This is necessary to stop babbling about global warming and don't reduce involvement of coal. Nuclear and geothermal energy and working on technology of gasification of coal underground, these are our task. Absolutely nothing was done in this direction.

Its still cheaper but its getting more and more expensive quickly gaining on market prices, its a question of few short years.

This is only your speculation, Russia have interest to be the cheapest on the market.

Prince 15 | 590

15 Feb 2009 #135

Russian resources are well documented and the cheapest on the market.

But they don't send us gas :) They don't use full capcity of Jamal gas pipe line like it was durring crisise on Ukraine. Now all european countries have gas but Russians don't want to send us gas Poland paid for. :)

Now they want some changes in contracts.

Maybe it is cheaper but nof for Poland so Poland is next counry to dominate ofter Ukriane.

Where is this 20% of ordered gas ?

lesser 4 | 1,311

15 Feb 2009 #136

But they don't send us gas :) They don't use full capcity of Jamal gas pipe line. :) Maybe it is cheaper but nof for Poland. Now they want some changes in contracts.

We don't know who is to blame, Ukraine or Russia. So, let not pretend that we know...

Prince 15 | 590

15 Feb 2009 #137

Don't you read newspapers ?

Russians claimed few months before that in case of problems with RosUkrEnergo ... there will be no problems to buy gas throught Belarus. Now All European countries have gas (transfered throught Ukraine and Bielarus) only Poland doesn't have 20% of ordered gas.

Russians claim that if we want gas throught Bielarus we must chanage long term contarcts to be better for Russians. Give them more power in Polish companies ect ...

Before you start debate you should read more about the case...

Gazprom does not respond to letters asking for PGNiG meeting as soon as possible on completion of the supply of gas. Currently, the East flows into Polish by 24 percent . less raw material. Agreement with the Swiss- Ukrainian- Russian company RosUkrEnergo was signed in November 2006 and is valid until the end of this year.

Last week's meeting of Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Vladimir Putin in Davos nothing has changed in Polish-Russian relations , at least when it comes to the supply of gas to our country. As learned "Rzeczpospolita ", PGNiG authorities still do not have any signal from Russia's Gazprom that his bosses are willing to talk about taking over the liabilities of its company - RosUkrEnergo . And this should be within a year to provide Poland approx. 2.5 billion cubic meters . gas through Ukraine . Since the beginning of the year it does not, although formally the gas conflict between Moscow and Kiev ended in mid-January .

According to "Rzeczpospolita " since then heads PGNiG sent several letters on the matter to the Vice-President Alexander Medvedev , who is responsible for Gazprom 's gas exports . The answer did not come. It seemed that a breakthrough could bring first meeting in Moscow intergovernmental team or the last conversation

RusUkrEnergo is controled by Gazprom ....

Poland is next on Russian list.

When Polish strategic reserves will be finished Poland is going to be accused of stealing gas ... for which Poland paid for :)

Sasha 2 | 1,083

15 Feb 2009 #138

Don't you read newspapers ?

Says who?! :) They're only useful for yourself when you see there what you wanna see. :)

lesser 4 | 1,311

15 Feb 2009 #139

Gazprom own 50% of RosUkrEnergo, the rest is owned by Naftogas Ukraine. While the author blame just Gazprom, RP is a mouthpiece of PiS. Gazprom don't own or control Ukrainian pipeline system. Gazprom might claim that they already send this gas, while we signed contract with RosUkrEnergo. We, still don't know who is to blame.

Prince 15 | 590

15 Feb 2009 #140

Gazprom don't even try to accuse Ukrianians for stealing gas :) you dumb as :))

In result of agreement between two companies Gazprom and EuroRusGas (owned in 50% by Gazprom) we don't have gas. We have paid for ...

Gasprom tells us ... give us your pipe lines there will be gas

lesser 4 | 1,311

15 Feb 2009 #141

RosUKREnergo is also 50% owned by Naftogas which is Ukrainian state owned company. This is classical deadlock. Is the glass half empty or half full? Stop being such a hypocrite.

Prince 15 | 590

15 Feb 2009 #142

Agreemant which caused that RusUkrEnergo is being out of businsess has been made between Gazprom and this company (RusUkrEnergo) ... which is owned in 50 % by Gazprom.

So in result of agreement between comany owned in 50% by Gazprom and Gazprom we don't have gas. They don't accuse Ukrianians for stealing gas... EU inspectors are in Ukraine. Russians don't send gas which we paid for.

Read something about problems Poland has before you take stance. :)

other countiries have gas transfered through Ukriane.

use your brain :) When our reserves will be finished ... Polands going to be accused for stealing gas (For which Poland paid for)

Sasha 2 | 1,083

15 Feb 2009 #143

Russians want Poland.

Russians are either friendly or don't give a sh!t about you... and the second option is what I'd worry about, if I were you Princy.

you dumb ass

Uff... such a poor rhetoric... bad-bad Princy...

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

15 Feb 2009 #144

Poland doesn't use so much of oil or gas to be worried.

You're right we dont use gas, we're cooking our meals by burning our socks, of course Poland uses lots of gas! Our energy grid is mostly coal based but our heating is gas based, we could never cover our own needs via coal only.

We have enough gas to supply ourselves ( possibly as much as Norway has ) but its much much more expensive to extract, i completely agree about going nuclear though.

Please... They were talking the same 15 years ago, 10 years ago and 5 years ago. They are liars.

Russian resources are well documented and the cheapest on the market.

Not for long, the price has been steadily growing for the past few years.

They ? I dont know who are "they" but i know that in the march of previous year financial time had a large article together with juicy statistics showing how russian gas is getting more and more expensive for the last 3 years and how its bound to reach and exceed the market price sometime 2012-2013.

Russians are either friendly or don't give a sh!t about you... and the second option is what I'd worry about, if I were you Princy.

No no he is quite correct, Russians want Poland, they also want our natural deposits of socks and mittens.

Prince 15 | 590

15 Feb 2009 #145

I don't know who is still posting on this forum but ... the facts are that

Russians are either friendly or don't give a sh!t about you... and the second option is what I'd worry about, if I were you Princy

So where is gas Poland paid for ?

lesser 4 | 1,311

15 Feb 2009 #146

Lukasz, all you can do is just whining about bad Russia and bad Germany without any objectivity. You really should consider joining PiS.

If you would be interested in this subject then you would know that Poland's usage of gas is small in comparison with western European states or Ukraine. Ukraine heating system is based on gas, Polish in opposition to your claims is based on coal (even in Gdansk!). This is cheaper solution.

They ? I dont know who are "they" but i know that in the march of previous year financial time had a large article together with juicy statistics showing how russian gas is getting more and more expensive for the last 3 years and how its bound to reach and exceed the market price sometime 2012-2013.

Private companies of chemical industry in Poland are not interested to buy much more expensive gas from Norway. Polish state should not subsidy them and according regulations of the EU such subsidies are forbidden. These are facts and time for home-grown geopolitical strategist to accept reality.

Prince 15 | 590

15 Feb 2009 #147

all you can do is just whining about bad Russia and bad Germany without any objectivity. You really should consider joining PiS.

Where is gas Poland has paid for. In few weeks Poland will be without gas (Poland still has something in magazines).

Then Poland will be accused for stealing it form pipelines.

Seanus 15 | 19,672

15 Feb 2009 #148

Ever heard of delays in delivery, Prince? It happens. Poland still has stocks but, trust me, they don't last long. Just ask any company that places a heavy reliance on its consumption.

If Poland was accused of stealing, I am sure it could clear its name. Paranoia helps little.

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

15 Feb 2009 #149

Lesser have you read what i told you ? In a few years Russian gas is going to cost as much if not more than the Norwegian one, the smart thing to do would be to build a couple of nuke plants and start thinking about mining our own deposits which are among the largest in Europe.

Uh...no ? Poland is using gas for heating both in private and commercial sectors, we're using coal in power generation.

Regardless our economy is still heavily dependent on gas and unable to be fully sustained by coal so the point is moot, the moment we're dependent on Russia is the moment we're screwed.

According to the geological surveys and prognostics we have a 70 year long supply of gas, its very deep and extraction is very expensive but we should either prospect from more available sources or start developing cheaper extraction technologies.

Ryszard - | 89

15 Feb 2009 #150

RosUKREnergo is also 50% owned by Naftogas which is Ukrainian state owned company. This is classical deadlock.

Uhm. Just one question - how this, classically deadlocked company, somehow managed to sell gas earlier to Ukraine and Poland, and now - suddenly - they can't do this anymore. Heck, how this company ever worked, if there was exact 50% of shares and influence - from one side 50% of Gazprom (one of the biggest companies in the world) and second 50% of... two Ukrainian private businesmen.

I bet those two Ukrainians are pulling the strings now, yeah, that's for sure! *smirk*

And, I wonder if this newspaper is mouthpiece of PiS, too?

So, where is 24% of our contracted gas, Mr. Putin?