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Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment?


Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 May 2009 #211
Indians and gas may mean trouble too ;) Those darned curries :)

Anyway, back to NORD STREAM. The case-law I read showed that the main players would fall short of EU environmental standards.
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 May 2009 #212
That gas may cost our independence one day..

What independence?
leszek38 - | 31
26 May 2009 #213
The one we have left. From Russia. The only one we really need. Or want.
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 May 2009 #214
Yet you are still talking in plurallike during the old 'good' days. Apparently mentally you are still there.
leszek38 - | 31
26 May 2009 #215
"During the old 'good' days" there was plural in the second person, while I used the plural of first person. Dont you see the tremendous difference or what?
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 May 2009 #216
Oh yes I see.

During the old 'good' days they always used to say what 'we really need'.

Today you want to say what 'we really need'.

Instead to write about your opinion, you speak about 'Polish opinion'. Indeed a lot have changed!/ sarcasm
leszek38 - | 31
26 May 2009 #217
Ech... how to put it... It wasnt the royal me, belive me.
I write about my opinion about Polish opinion.
"I really need" would look somewhat out of place, not to mention silly, in the context.
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 May 2009 #218
I write about my opinion about Polish opinion.

The only one we really need

Obviously not.

I suggest to ask Polish citizens whether they want resign from independence. Why not to ask them openly if you think that this is their opinion?
leszek38 - | 31
26 May 2009 #219
We were asked. Dont you remmember the EU referendum? That day we gave up the sigificant part of our independance and we are stuck with the result. Whether I like it or not is irrelevent. It happend and there is no sensible way we can turn back.
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 May 2009 #220
We were asked. Dont you remmember the EU referendum?

No, question was not asked openly from obvious reasons. Why not ask them openly, after all they are supposed to share your opinion, so there is no risk.

It happend and there is no sensible way we can turn back.

You wish!
leszek38 - | 31
26 May 2009 #221
Everyone have known what we are giving up.

And, as I said, what I wish is irrelevent. What way back? Geting out from EU and joining some sort of slavic alliance, ie new soviet union? Sure we can. And great independance it would be.

I was talking about sensible way. And I dont see any. Maybe I'm blind.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 May 2009 #222
I think lesser is talking to himself here, with Crow throwing in some ideas ;) ;)
leszek38 - | 31
26 May 2009 #223
Are you teling that I'm nobody? Thank you very much. Goodnight.
Salomon 2 | 436
27 May 2009 #224
english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6661193.html

The construction on the China section of an oil pipeline from Russia's Siberia started Monday after 14 years of negotiation between the two nations.

platts.com/Natural%20Gas/News/8551204.xml?src=Natural%20Gasrssheadlines1

Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Tuesday invited Japanese
companies to participate in a number of energy infrastructure projects in the
Russian Far East, including the construction of oil and gas pipelines, a gas
liquefaction plant and a gas chemical facility.

Europe is going to develope green energy sector or will be dominated. With or without Nord Stream. They can sell gas for Asians who have money ...

Bicycle race
youtube.com/watch?v=kpy4xNAnWzM
jwojcie 2 | 763
28 May 2009 #225
Some important info, which I think wasn't posted here:
- gas is only about 12% in total energetic balance of Poland
- in these 12%, about 67% is from Russia, so even if from some unknown reason Poland will lose Russia as a gas supplier, it will be only 8% of total energetic needs...

- Poland has no such problem with oil because of naftoport, currently plans for LPG port are in motion, so it is reasonable to assume that in next 5 to 10 years dependence on one gas supplier will disappear...

To sum up, even if this north stream is some threat for Polish energetic safety it is not death threat... There is no reason to panic...
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
1 Jun 2009 #226
jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=35034&cHash=9d3187ad25 - Gazprom's Loyalists in Berlin and Brussels
jwojcie 2 | 763
2 Jun 2009 #227
Gas deal signed, gas flows again, till next winter I suppose... :
gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,33181,6676383,Gaz_z_Rosji_plynie_do_Polski.html
Salomon 2 | 436
9 Jun 2009 #228
Gazprom's Loyalists in Berlin and Brussels

Interesting article.
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
11 Jun 2009 #229
Even Bundeswehr demands now, that the route of the Nord Stream pipeline should be altered!

en.rian.ru/world/20090610/155218595.html

Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian authorities raise a large number of objections to the Nord Stream environmental impact assessment:

businessneweurope.eu/storyf1644/Obstacles_pile_up_for_Russias_N ord_Stream_gas_pipeline
guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8549428
baltic-course.com/eng/energy/?doc=14687
baltic-course.com/eng/energy/?doc=14643

Finland wants more information on risks of gas pipeline: hs.fi/english/article/Finland+wants+more+information+on+risks+of+gas+pipeline/1135246618162

A Statement of the on the Nord Stream Gas Pipeline ESPOO EIA report and Proposals for requirements to mitigate environmental impact of the gas pipeline

ccb.se/documents/CCBstatementNordStreamFinal_000.pdf
ccb.se
Coalition Clean Baltic

New Era For Gazprom, As Gas Giant's Fortunes Plummet

Gazprom's pipeline network, a large part of it in Russia, is also aging and in need of upgrading. As "The "Moscow Times" noted on May 27, "No other company has so many explosions on major pipelines."

Q+A-Exclusive Analysis experts on Russia's oil, mine sector

In order to finance all its new projects (LNG initiatives, development of Yamal and Eastern Siberian deposits and the Pre-Caspian, Nord and South Stream pipelines) Gazprom would have to spend $30 billion annually for the foreseeable future. Even at times of high oil prices, Gazprom's investment programme rarely exceeded $4 billion. With $60 billion debt ($10 billion due in 2009) and exports halved because of the fall in demand, it is in no position to continue expanding. More to the point, major Russian banks' credit lines with Gazprom have reached their limits. It is possible that Gazprom will postpone development of capital-intensive Yamal and Eastern Siberian deposits and will concentrate on Shtokman, Nord Stream and South Stream projects, which are also politically significant for the Kremlin.

Nord Stream, Matthias Warnig (codename "Arthur") and the Gazprom Lobby

The files list a number of targets Warnig - "Arthur" was assigned to spy upon. These ranged from a report he submitted in May, 1987 which contain documents about the energy business in West Germany, to a report dated December 8, 1987 about the policies of enterprise management in the West. He also submitted reports about biotech research in the West, computer technology and dozens of other reports mainly dealing with industrial espionage.

Warnig's career was furthered by his alleged relationship with KGB Lieutenant-Colonel Vladimir Putin in Dresden. According to German press reports, the two men were allegedly collaborating on recruiting West German citizens to work for the KGB according to Warnig's former colleagues.

Poland will take control over cleaning up Baltic Sea

A report prepared by Polish experts about ecological dangers in Baltic Sea could jeopardize a German and Russian initiative to build an underwater gas pipe called Nordstream. If this project was to be carried out it could free thousand tons of chemicals sunk there during a World War II. - We have to prepare a report that will stop Gazprom. We need to do it quickly" - said Marcin Libicki, a former European MP, who was the first one to demand independent enviormental expertise. He managed to establish a baltic coallition against Nordstream.

Top German Spy Says More Russian Snooping on Firms

The director of Counter-Intelligence at the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, said the spying was aimed mostly at information on alternative and renewable energy and efforts to increase efficiency. European energy interests, diversification plans, and Germany's economic situation were also espionage targets.

jamestownfoundation.blogspot.com/2009/06/russian-spies-and-european-energy.html

The head of Germany's counterintelligence organization, the BfV, Burkhard Even told the newspaper Die Welt am Sonntag on June 21, 2009 that the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, the SVR, has been actively conducting espionage operations against the German energy sector. "The Russian intelligence services, keeping up with their government's changing information needs, have intensified efforts in recent years to investigate German firms illegally," Even said.

Russia: a new confrontation?
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdfence/276/27609.htm
A report by the Defence Committee of the UK Parliament

Alan Riley - An Economic and Market Analysis of the North European Pipeline Project
europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/200801/20080129ATT19854/20080129ATT19854EN.pdf
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,813
21 Jul 2009 #230
We should concentrate on Desertec instead of new pipelines I say!
Nathan 18 | 1,363
21 Jul 2009 #231
Very nice - environmentally friendly, effective, North Africa's additional water supply, cheap and Russian-free. What else can you ask for? Go for it, Germany - good job :)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,813
21 Jul 2009 #232
Yeah...I have huge hopes!
It will take some years but all great things started with a vision, didn't they! And now that the german gov and the big guns from the industry got behind it it MUST work!
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
21 Jul 2009 #233
Good luck to the Desertec project! This is the first time when I agree with Bratwurst Boy.

Please join Facebook groups opposing Nord Stream pipeline:

et-ee.facebook.com/group.php?gid=63152183085 - Stop Nordstream!
te-in.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28527416878 - Rename Nord Stream Pipeline after Molotov-Ribbentrop
TheOther 5 | 3,831
1 Aug 2009 #234
Rename Nord Stream Pipeline after Molotov-Ribbentrop

2009 is not 1939, in case you haven't noticed.
mihir1310 - | 5
7 Aug 2009 #235
That facebook group is for sore losers. My posts always got deleted by the mod simply because it did not fit his/her "agenda" .. Viva freedom of speech !!!!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,813
7 Aug 2009 #236
I've read the facebook comments....what crap!
Nobody reading that will believe you really care for the marine life of the baltic!
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
8 Aug 2009 #237
TheOther

The foreign policy of the Putins FSB state is still expansionist and imperialistic. 2009 is more similar to 1939 than you like to acknowledge.
TheOther 5 | 3,831
8 Aug 2009 #238
2009 is more similar to 1939 than you like to acknowledge

To imply that a simple business deal is comparable to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is nonsense, IMHO. We are talking about the delivery of oil, not about a military attack on Poland.
Pohlatohlakas - | 19
8 Aug 2009 #239
Baltic marine ecosystem is a matter of great concern, but is not the only one! Security issues are very important, too! And economical aspects should also not be disregarded(fishery, sea transport, tourism etc.).
TheOther 5 | 3,831
8 Aug 2009 #240
Baltic marine ecosystem is a matter of great concern

All valid arguments, but they have nothing to do with the infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. It's not comparable.


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