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Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations?


AntV 2 | 192
22 Feb 2020 #421
.do you have a living example for one politician of such sort?

It doesn't necessarily have to be politicians, but Trump, I'd argue, is, indeed, a Sovereignist. I am a Sovereignist.

"Make **** great again" spring to mind...or "Take back control"....as if foreigners, other countries are to blame for humiliation or loss

Make American Great Again isn't blaming foreigners and other countries. It's blaming domestic leaders and bureaucrats for entering into agreements and making policies that don't serve the interest of the average American.

All of this hyperventilating over Trump's perceived nationalism isn't grounded in the facts of his policies. For instance, look at the new trade deal between the US, Mexico, and Canada, it doesn't screw over Mexico and Canada, it benefits and respects all parties involved. It just makes the trade environment more fair. Hell, it even benefits the average Mexican, for instance there's a provision that will significantly raise wages for mexican auto workers.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Feb 2020 #422
Erm....I as a German feel continously blamed...

Might be that we conceive Trump totally differently....but that fits...as he would be YOUR kind of nationalist...what makes him okay...his "enemies" will beg to differ!

And he too would like the EU see destroyed, he hates supranationalists organizations and their rules...frankly I don't see any difference to any other nationalist right now.
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 Feb 2020 #423
We can call the latter Sovereignists.

Interesting. Would a sovereignist be willing to reject his humanity and eternal life for the sovereignty of his state? If the answer is affirmative then I don't see much difference between him and a nationalist.

I agree with BB in that there is nothing inherently evil in supranational organisations/governance, or even limiting national sovereignty on certain occasions, if it benefits our people; if it increases the well-being of families, freedom of speech/beliefs and safety, then let's have those supranational structures - why not?

Idolising national sovereignty is like idolising a race, political concept (i.e. communism) or any other golden calf.

Im a proud German and my nation is as important as my family for me

Hm... very well, let's test this.

Imagine another Führer rises to power in your country. He wants to "make Germany great again"; there are fiery speeches, shop windows are being broken, people start marching (same old sh*t). Let's try some control questions:

1. You have this Sorb friend, Arnošt (let's call him Arni), from your hood; you and Arni went to school together, supported Hertha together, and fell in love with the same girl from senior grade. Since you graduated from school you haven't been meeting Arni as often as in the past, but you still meet every now and then to watch a football game on TV and have a bier or two. Your Führer says that Sorbs are vermin undermining the Great Fourth 1000-year Reich. One day you are given an order to kill your friend.

Do you:

A. Take your unit, go to Arni's house and shoot him and his family, just like your Führer told you to.
B. Warn Arni beforehand, take your unit, go to Arni's house. After arriving you try to look as convincingly surprised that nobody's there as possible.

No bullsh*t, son. Give me straightforward answer. A or B?

Depending on your answer, you might receive further questions.
AntV 2 | 192
22 Feb 2020 #424
Might be that we conceive Trump totally differently.

That's my belief, it's simply a matter of misperception--probably fueled by the personal dislike the Great Combover and Merkel have for each other (but that is a mutual feeling between the two--it's not a one-way street). I'm not aware of the Orange Crush putting forward anything that actually weakens or severely harms Germany.

Would a sovereignist be willing to reject his humanity and eternal life for the sovereignty of his state?

Absolutely and unequivocally not!

You raise a very important point that begs a clarification. Strictly speaking, a soveriegnist could be of any stripe as long as he adheres to national independence and integrity--this could include communists, fascists, etc. So, we need to distinguish between the types of sovereignists. The sovereignists I defined in my previous post can be called a Democratic Sovereignist.

Humanity is at the very root of being a democratic sovereignist . Humanity is what is sacrosanct to the democratic sovereignist. The democratic sovereignist is motivated by the liberty of the human person to govern himself (done through representative government). The state is not viewed as an idol to be worshipped, but a vehicle to serve the popular will of the people and protect the rights of individuals.

I agree with BB in that there is nothing inherently evil in supranational organisations/governance

I agree, also. There is nothing inherently evil in such constructs. But what recourse do you have when such a construct no longer...

benefits our people; if it increases the well-being of families, freedom of speech/beliefs and safety,

How does the people hold a supranational regime accountable?

My main point is that globalist constructs actually weaken the liberty and rights of individuals.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Feb 2020 #425
the Great Combover and Merkel have for each other (but that is a mutual feeling between the two--it's not a one-way street).

The Great Combover??? :)

But yeah...totally clashing personalities...wouldn't be a first that the personal dislike between two leaders sours all relationships...one can only sit it out!
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 Feb 2020 #426
The state is not viewed as an idol to be worshipped, but a vehicle to serve the popular will of the people

Great! I now understand better what you meant. But don't you think that a supranational organisation can also serve people and protect their rights?

But what recourse do you have when such a construct no longer...

This can happen to both supranational constructs and national states (see Third Reich), and they might be equally difficult to oppose in such case.

Supranational constructs can be so varied and different (Soviet Union, Austro-Hungarian monarchy, European Union, Yugoslavia) that trying to put them all into one bag and say that they are bad/limiting liberties of individuals etc. doesn't make much sense. They have to be judged individually as separate cases.

P.S. Let's not forget that Catholic Church is also a supranational organisation. ;)
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Feb 2020 #427
My main point is that globalist constructs actually weaken the liberty and rights of individuals.

That has to be seen for every case....growing up in the GDR my liberty and my rights as individual had been denied or severely diminished by the Soviet Union...but today I have more liberties (traveling, working, living everywhere within the EU) than ever before....my right to speak openly and vote whom I want is guaranteed...the EU is in no way trying to opress me....

And the last decades have been good to Germany...peaceful, prospering, stable...

So, it's as Torq say...globalists organizations aren't generally a good or a bad thing...nothing to fight or to support just because...if someone says so I would beg for clarification.

Trump once said the EU was "made to hurt the US"....so he sees it as a rival...so he wants it destroyed, weakened...that has nothing to do with the welfare of the people in the EU, but all with "MAGA"!
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
22 Feb 2020 #428
How does the people hold a supranational regime accountable?

They can't so they don't. People can kill their oppressors only if the oppressors are close enough to be shot. Like they did so brilliantly in Romania.

Every society should have the means to execute its oppressors.

that has nothing to do with the welfare of the people in the EU, but all with "MAGA"!

Because Trump is the president of the US, not the EU.
AntV 2 | 192
22 Feb 2020 #429
But don't you think that a supranational organisation can also serve people and protect their rights?

Yes, I do. The concern is how do you ensure it.

trying to put them all into one bag and say that they are bad/limiting liberties of individuals etc. doesn't make much sense

I agree that such constructs vary greatly and you can't judge them all as the same. I also agree they are not all inherently bad. But, I do believe they put a fundamental limit on liberty. Reality is there is always going to be some limits put on liberty, even in a fully sovereign democratic regime, i.e. you have to pay taxes, can't infringe on public or private property, etc. But, those limitations are not done by governmental fiat, rather by consent of the people via elected officials; if the government overreaches, the people have an apparatus it can use to effect change: the vote. In a supranational regime, that doesn't really exist; the real power is concentrated in a body appointed by elites, not the people they govern.

.the EU is in no way trying to opress me

But what happens if it does begin to opress?

Let's not forget that Catholic Church is also a supranational organisation. ;)

How about a supernatural organization? :)

Trump once said the EU was "made to hurt the US"....so he sees it as a rival

If he said "hurt", then I'd disagree with that, but if he meant to rival the US, then that's spot on. We do, in fact, see each other as rivals (again, it's a two-way street). But, rivalry doesn't mean hatred. Rivalry can make each other better, as long as the playing field is fair. The Great Combover has said more than anything, the playing field isn't fair and has been stacked against the US. I think that's demonstrably true. He's not trying to hurt the EU, he's trying the even the playing field. Remember, it was Trump who proposed no tariffs across the board with the EU--that didn't come from the EU.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Feb 2020 #430
But what happens if it does begin to opress?

Then I will join the resistance! :)

And I will do so too if my own german gov tries to opress me...I did it before, I would do so again!

There are no guarantees for anything, Anti....only vigilance.

If he said "hurt", then I'd disagree with that, but if he meant to rival the US, then that's spot on.

newsweek.com/donald-trump-says-eu-was-set-order-hurt-united-states-1232747

That speaks for the power of this globalist organization called EU, doesn't it! No lone european country could dream of not only being an equal to the mighty US but a rival!

Have to go now...

'night all
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
22 Feb 2020 #431
@Torq

The world is more complex than A or B. If im in position to get orders to kill someone, that also means im in position to put someone off the list.

But thats not the issue here. You are from Poland and i assume that short period has shaped your mind. Keep in mind that what Hitler did was not what Germany stands for.

You ask me if i would shot a friend if ordered. But why you ask me that? You can ask same to a pole or russian or french. Would you ask a british if he would shot an irish friend?
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 Feb 2020 #432
@Weimarer

You said you are a nationalist and that your nation is equally important to you as your family.

That's a huge claim, so I am merely trying to establish whether your statement is true by a series of very simple A or B questions.

We didn't even get to family yet, we are at an easy question about a friend. I could ask this question to anyone, but I'm asking you. So, in such hypothetical situation, what would it be - A or B?

Come on, honest answer.
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
22 Feb 2020 #433
@Torq
Since my nation is like my family i also act like in my family. I would not betray a friend, same way as me and my siblimgs sticked together and kept stuff secret from my parents ;)
Spike31 3 | 1,610
22 Feb 2020 #434
Oh please! Why not say: Different race? Better race???

Same race. We're just better looking that's all ;-)

And the last decades have been good to Germany...peaceful, prospering, stable...

Yes, the old order has benefited Western Germany greatly. Most Germans have probably started to think that it was a natural order of things and they deserved it as their "natural right". Yet it was achieved thanks to a dominant political position in continental Europe which derived from a solid economical power built by a few decades of capitalism, safety and stability provided by the US and a Marschall plan as well. Now the times are changing and politico-economical order in Europe will also change.
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
22 Feb 2020 #435
@Spike31

Nothing will change the fact that Germany due to its culture, position in europe and people will always be the dominant power in Europe.
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 Feb 2020 #436
I would not betray a friend

:)

You are not a nationalist then, Weimi. You're a patriot.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
22 Feb 2020 #437
The moral degradation

You're making a moral evaluation of slavery. I don't contest you in this. I'm only saying that economically slave labour in the South has been successful and economically viable. That is a fact. I'm not going into a detail as that would too be much off topic here.

You making that a post-factum protestant based jump in reasoning. If something wasn't morally kosher and lost the war it must have been somehow internally flawed, Ergo slavery wasn't economically efficient.

Sorry, to burst your bubble but the ante-bellum South was on it way to make a success story of slavery in the modern times. Hell, even Tredegar Iron Works in Virginia employed slaves before the war.

Only a tiny percentage of the white population owned slaves

More than (so called) a one percent today. Are you telling me that the whole show gonna collapse?
---
mafketis 23 | 8,360
22 Feb 2020 #438
but the ante-bellum South was on it way to make a success story of slavery in the modern times.

No. If it was so successful then why were slave states in such heavy debt to free states?

An economic institution that only benefits a tiny percentage of the population (like slavery) is not a success by any rational measure.

The 1 % now benefits from economic distortions that devastate most of the population... doesn't make it an economic success story...

Not least because slavery degrades the value of work for free folk and everybody ends up looking for a free ride (much like the modern 'globalized' economy).
Crow 139 | 8,566
23 Feb 2020 #439
See how things change, how wheel rotate. Now Poland violently fu*k Germany and German interests on all meridians.
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
23 Feb 2020 #440
@Crow
Lol
Poland has a smaller economy than the city of munich.

Crow you get more problematic with each day.
Torq 32 | 2,999
23 Feb 2020 #441
Poland has a smaller economy than the city of munich.

Erm... not really. Munich metropolitan region (the richest in Germany) has GDP of 179 billion euro. That's over twofold more than Warsaw metropolitan region (73 billion)...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_European_Union_by_GDP

...but nowhere near Poland's GDP of 566 billion.

Only Paris metropolitan area can boast of a larger economy than Poland, but about 20% of French population live there. :D

Anyway, pure numbers are just statistics and nothing more - to have an idea about the quality of life you have to take into account the cost of living, which is much lower in Poland than in Germany or France. I actually have several friends among Polish immigrants (2nd and 3rd generation) in Paris, and I dare say my quality of life is better than that of 95% of them. :)
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
23 Feb 2020 #442
@Torq
I would rather prefer to be dead than moving into a big city Like Berlin or Paris. Prefer my forest Thüringen.
Torq 32 | 2,999
23 Feb 2020 #443
Actually, Polish GDP is higher than that of three richest German Regions/Areas put together: Munich Metropolitan Region, Berlin Metropolitan Region and Ruhr Area (179 billion, 173 billion and 161 billion respectively). :) True, about 17 million people live in the aforementioned three regions, that's roughly a half of Poland's population, so those regions are still richer, but we are getting richer too - don't worry. :)

Apart from developing fast, and increasing the reserves - only last year NBP (National Bank of Poland) bought over 100 tons of gold. It doesn't count to GDP, but significantly increases the nations wealth.

Not bad for a country that didn't have Marshall Plan to help us rebuild after WW2, and that was under Soviet occupation and idiotic communist economic system for 44 years, eh? Not bad for a country that didn't sack and pillage the entire continent, stealing works of art, gold and jewellery in the process (including golden teeth of those that you put into gas chambers), eh?

I would rather prefer to be dead than moving into a big city Like Berlin or Paris. Prefer my forest Thüringen

Depends on the metro region you live in. I live in a small one - Tricity Metro is only about 1.2 million people...

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglomeracja_tr%C3%B3jmiejska

... but it is spread on a rather large area, so you don't feel like you live in a big city really. For me Gdańsk is the best place to live in Poland. You should visit one day. :)
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
23 Feb 2020 #444
@Torq

Im not interested in cities, they bore me. If i visit Poland than just because morasko meteorite site. There is nothing else that interests me.

In Australia i was 30 days and 2 days in Sydney. I was bored in Sydney and could not await to finally see the nature.

As for gold... 100 tons? Thats cute.

Germany has 2nd largest stockpile of gold in the world.

We have 3.370 tons

If you think you can provocate me with Danzig, you are wrong.
Crow 139 | 8,566
23 Feb 2020 #445
Poland has a smaller economy than the city of munich.

Its on who is behind Poland. I mean in real, behind Poland. As for Poland`s economy, it will only grow.

And what you think what is future of Germany, when becoming clear that EU represent 4th reich. What you think? You think Germany will survive? This sex, condom named as Germany, won`t survive.

Crow you get more problematic with each day.

Its the matter of having info and abundant necessity to share it.
Torq 32 | 2,999
23 Feb 2020 #446
If you think you can provocate me with Danzig, you are wrong.

What do you mean provocate? Gdańsk - no lovelier city...





... apart from being one of the oldest, and greatest, Polish cities, Gdańsk also had a brief German episode in its history, so it has a mixed Polish-German heritage, so you should enjoy visiting - why not?

Nationalists are narrowminded and only concentrated on one aspect/heritage of cities like Gdańsk/Danzig, Wrocław/Breslau or Cottbus/Chociebuż, but patriots, like you and me, can appreciate all the richness of our cities/regions with their mixed and fascinating history, nicht war?
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
23 Feb 2020 #447
@Crow
The EU is a german project. And your insults against my country dont bother me. You come from a nothing.

@Torq
As i said, i have no interest in visiting eastern europe.

I visited France Switzerland Spain, Portugal, Mauritius, Madagascar, Australia, New Caledonia, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Egypt, Japan, Seachelles, Cuba, USA, Italy, Greece. But never eastern europe and i have little to no interests in it.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
23 Feb 2020 #448
As i said, i have no interest in visiting eastern europe.

Your loss!

And I wonder why? Whereas Madagascar might be exotic it doesn't belong to the german/european heritage like eastern Europe.

That is especially astounding coming from people who bear the mantra about the "defense of Europe" always like a shield in front of them. A little bit of knowledge and interest in Europe would be a requirement for that, one would think.

PS: I came to PF many years back seeking a connection to the my ancestors who lived and died in what is now Poland. I met some really great people here who became longstanding friends. I changed abit, I think they changed abit too...together we found out how great such a common heritage can be even if also alot more difficult than say with Madagaskar...but I would had missed alot without this interest!
Torq 32 | 2,999
23 Feb 2020 #449
As i said, i have no interest in visiting eastern europe.

Oh, well. Your loss.

It's kinda similar with me and Germany. I've already been to Turkey, Egypt and Morocco, so there's no point for me to go to another country with huge muslim population.

Your loss!

Ha! You beat me to it, BB! :)
Torq 32 | 2,999
23 Feb 2020 #450
I would had missed alot without this interest!

Listen to you fellow countryman, boy. He knows what he's talking about!

All those years ago, when BB and I met, I was kind of like Spike and Iron (only twice as much against all things German :) ). Now I check news about Germany on internet portals, I told my daughter to choose German as her second foreign language (and not French or Spanish), and even started to learn German myself. Without talking to people, trying to understand the other point of view, and BEING INTERESTED in them, there can never be any real reconciliation and cooperation.

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