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Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations?


Tacitus 2 | 1,136
24 Feb 2020 #481
Well, I hope that future generations can laugh about what happens in our time.

It is just a nice change of pace that Germans will be able to look back at recent history and be proud of how their country acted during a time of crisis.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Feb 2020 #482
@Maf, I have the same right as you...and I live some five-THOUSAND miles away! Distance never stopped anybody from expressing themselves in both a sensible, cogent fashion.

:-)
mafketis 23 | 8,404
24 Feb 2020 #483
be proud of how their country acted during a time of crisis

Germany caused the crisis it didn't solve jack sh1t.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Feb 2020 #484
Germany per se didn't "cause" the crisis! Assad murdered probably more of his fellow citizens than either Arafat or Achmadshinishad and so Merkel decided to try to help. She's a typical product of her generation, as is President Steinmeier, what more can I say:-)

She never weighed in the mood of the German electorate, her constituents, and so failed to deliver on her campaign promises of serving the German nation/state.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
24 Feb 2020 #485
Germany caused the crisis it didn't solve jack sh1t.

The refugee crisis was caused by the breakdown of Arab societies and the rise of the Islamic state, both of which Germany played no part in. In fact it could be argued that Poland is more responsible since it aided in the destabilization of Iraq.

By 2015, Southern Europe and the Balkans were no longer able to cope with the arrival of refugees and asked for help. Northern Europe refused, so particulary Italy just started sending them North. Merkel only decided to help them when the BND told her that there was a chance that the Balkans might be destablized if they were forced to permantly have to deal with the 1m refugees that had arrived at this point. Merkel was at time the only European politician who actually thought off the bigger picture.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
24 Feb 2020 #486
....I think he meant the Euro crisis and Greece...maybe...
mafketis 23 | 8,404
24 Feb 2020 #487
both of which Germany played no part in

Not Germany's (or Europe's ) circus, not Germany's or Europe's monkeys....

never weighed in the mood of the German electorate, her constituents, and so failed to deliver on her campaign promises of serving the German nation/state

Exactly!
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
24 Feb 2020 #488
@Tacitus
What bullshit. Merkel never cared for Germany nor Germans. She betrayed our nation and destabilized us. She broke the german political system that worked for 70 years. As i said, im happy to see that ***** suffer trauma more and more. She is shaking at public events, sees her party break apart. People throw tomatos on her.

When she left her car at Dresden and waved to people they shouted to her to **** off and called her names i dont want write here. It was nice to see her get pale.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
24 Feb 2020 #489
I think he meant the Euro crisis and Greece.

That would be even more ridiculous. If he wants to know about the Greek problems, he should google for "Island of blind people", Expenditure of the Olympic games in Greece and "Fakelaki" to get an idea.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
25 Feb 2020 #490
I agree with Tacitus on that score.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
25 Feb 2020 #491
Case in point, here are a lot of examples listed on.

nationalpost.com/news/world/greece-zakyntos-island-of-the-blind-scam-822595
Vesko Vukovic 1 | 250
25 Feb 2020 #492
US army is Israel's private army so there is no way that USA will step aside while Israel is fighting a war.

The refugee crisis was caused by the breakdown of Arab societies and the rise of the Islamic state,

If Libya wouldn't have been bombarded, there would be no migrant flood over the Mediterranean sea. From the Middle-East towards Europe most of the migrants are from Iraq and Afghanistan, only a minority of the migrants are actually from Syria.

All this was orchestrated by the Soros's NGOs. Handbooks were printed for them.

1

They were and still are financed through Western Union (around 2000 euros per person). Free smartphones are given to them.
Soros's NGO boats are used to smuggle third world orcs from Africa through the Mediterranean.

2

The Arabs are fighting continuously with each other for thousands of years, that's not a new thing, but the migrant crisis is orchestrated by the Jews from the ZOG-West.....
mafketis 23 | 8,404
25 Feb 2020 #493
If he wants to know about the Greek problems, he should google for "

Then why was was the EC giving such positive reports on Greece's infrastructure spending in the 00s? That's right! Because neoliberals hate infrastructure spending (like Germany, one of the premier economies in the world and can't build a frickin' airport?!??!)

Massive rewriting of history went down when the EU (largely at German urging) changed directions and went all in for siding with private investors over citizens in 2008....

Southern Europe and the Balkans were no longer able to cope with the arrival of refugees

Well it's a good thing the EU is now protecting its external borders and has worked out the kinks of Dublin so that when the next flow comes (probably starting in a few weeks) they'll be ready.... oh...... never mind.....
Crow 139 | 8,609
25 Feb 2020 #494
I contemplated deeply on this topic. Germany became kind of leprosy dog. No dignity in kicking it.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
25 Feb 2020 #495
Greece's infrastructure spending in the 00s?

You do know that the Greek governments were actively deceiving the other government and Bruessels about their spending and deficite right?
mafketis 23 | 8,404
25 Feb 2020 #496
No one with a functioning brain ever believed the deficit reporting..... but deficits aren't the enemy until governments start prioritizing the interests of private financiers over the citizenry as a whole...

Germany and Greece traditionally have very different approaches to how national economies work - the blithering idiots that created the euro either never understood that, though that Greece would be able to turn into a manufacturing powerhouse or wanted to turn southern europe into perpetual debt farms... because those are the only possible results of Germany and Greece trying to share a currency without massive transfers (which Germany forbade from the beginning).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
25 Feb 2020 #497
Well, Greece seems to be on the up...if this crisis helped them to organize a better working bureaucracy and economy then maybe it wasn't for naught.

"...Greek debt, viewed as poisonous just years ago, is now in high demand as investors seek stable assets amid a global economic slowdown - and a possible recession...."

businessinsider.de/international/next-recession-greece-joins-negative-yielding-euro-nations-bond-sale-2019-10/?r=US&IR=T

I find it interesting that you as a Pole are more angry at Germany at their behalf than most Greeks...even today, so many years after...
mafketis 23 | 8,404
25 Feb 2020 #498
I'm not Polish, I'm a long term American resident in Poland.

I'm not angry "at Germany" but at the German and EU governments for creating the insane Euro project in the first place and then scapegoating Greece for the terrible decisions of private German bankers (who deserved to lose a bunch of money instead of being saved).

Greek debt, viewed as poisonous just years ago, is now in high demand

In other words pump up another debt bubble....

Germany is a manufacturing/export economy and Greece is a consumption/service economy - what works for one won't work for the other, ever.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
25 Feb 2020 #499
and then scapegoating Greece for the terrible decisions of private German bankers

What you are doing now instead is scapegoating Germany for some terrible decisions of greek politicians/economists and the people who kept voting them into place for decades...

What's worse?

And don't forget, without the bailout Greece would today be a failed state with no hope of any recovery whatsover, even the Greeks know that...there has never been a majority against the EURO membership!

Yes, errors had been made on all sides, but they may be excused because unifying such different countries, economies and cultures is never going to be easy...without any blueprint to follow....hell, even unifying Germans hasn't been without stumbling blocks...so, let it go!

You are an Ami??? :)
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
25 Feb 2020 #500
without massive transfers

Those transfers did in fact happen via the cheap loans that Greece received after entering the Eurozone. Greece could have used the money to modernize its' country. Instead the Greek government blew it on vanity projects like the Olympic games or to bribe voters. Let us be completely candid. Greece was driving towards disaster before it joined the Euro, because the structural problems were already there. Joining the Euro only accelerated it.

Another thing to consider is that Germany was by no means the harshest creditor towards Greece. Especially the small, often poorer than Greece, countries of the of the Eurozone had a hardline stance towards Greece, and their approval was needed as well.

google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/09/poorer-than-greece-the-eu-countries-that-reject-a-new-athens-bailout

Thirdly, the Greek governments, particulary the Tsipras government, was not helpful in finding a solution. The whole mess started when it was revealed that Greece had been systematically lying to its' partners, and it only got worse from then on. The Greek governments rarely upheld their promises and dragged their feet on reforms. And then there was this complete disaster that the maniac Varoufakis caused. None of that helped Greece's negotiation position.

Finally, Greece did in fact made some incredible advancements in e.g. reforming its' bureaucracy. As a Greek government report said, they made more progress in the time 2008-2018 than in the three decades preceeding it. But that also highlights how far behind Greece was. I mean they did not even have a central registry of the landowners in Greece, no wonder nobody paid landowner taxes. Even most African had one at this point.

German banks

Aside from the fact that French and Italian banks were actually more exposed to Greece, it is worth noting that most of those loans were made on a sound base, going from the knowledge that was available. The banks looked at the evaluation of Greece via the ECB, which was based on the (falsified) numbers provided by Greece. There was no way of knowing that Greece would be lying so brazenly about its' deficite. Again, Greece is not the helpless victim here. They actively asked for loans and even cooked the books to get them.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
25 Feb 2020 #501
Especially the small, often poorer than Greece, countries of the of the Eurozone had a hardline stance towards Greece.....

*nods*

Something what is curiously always ignored by all that finger pointing at Germany...
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
25 Feb 2020 #502
Well, they were of course comfortable hiding behind Merkel and Germans make a convenient scapegoat. Imagine the outcry if Germany had like Finland demanded special guarantees from Greece, which I think were to tied to its' gold reserves.
mafketis 23 | 8,404
25 Feb 2020 #504
terrible decisions of greek politicians/economists and the people who kept voting them into place

Greece is not at all without blame, but it's more of a 50-50 situation than the 100% Greece's fault narrative that Euro apologists keep pushing.... the architects of the euro should be in jail for their hubris....

transfers did in fact happen via the cheap loans that Greece received after entering the Eurozone.

loans are not transfers.... loans have to be paid back with interest, transfers don't... the loans were a pyramid scheme that blew up at the first sign of stress....

You are an Ami??? :)

...und stolz darauf!

My ancestry is actually majority German (with some other stuff as is typical in the US). I'm actually very positive about lots of aspects of Germany, but I'm not blind to the faults (including its over-identification with the ever-more-dysfunctional EU....
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
25 Feb 2020 #505
...und stolz darauf!

Ein Deutsch-Amerikaner! YAY! :)

but it's more of a 50-50 situation than the 100% Greece's fault

I could agree with that...

Now let's focus on making it better...I believe Germany has learned, the whole EURO-zone has learned and Greece will use this crisis to modernize their bureaucracy and economy at last.

But of course, if there is absolutely no good-will from your side towards the EU and the EURO zone then you will probably still keep on waiting and hoping for their downfall....concentrating on their errors and flaws instead of seeing their successes. *shrugs*
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
25 Feb 2020 #506
more of a 50-50 situation than the 100%

Are you really ignoring here all the structural flaws and what Greece did to get those loans? Greece was not duped by the banks to accept loans it could not pay. It actively deceived those banks in order to get those loans.

the architects of the euro

The Euro itself is a solid but flawed construct, the main flaw was that the member states did not agree to mlre supervision by the ECB to make sure they were not lying. When the Euro was envisioned, it was not considered to let countries like Greece or even Italy in. Both only joined after some creative boook-keeping and a lot of lobbying in Bruessels. Against the resistance of the German finance minister mind you.

paid back with interest

After joining the Euro, Greece suddenly only had to pay interests rate at the same level as Germany did, instead of its' far higher one when it had its' own currency. It saved billions each year because of that, but it did not use the money prudently.
mafketis 23 | 8,404
25 Feb 2020 #507
no good-will from your side towards the EU

I had massive good will toward the EU until sometime after 2008 (when it went all in for socially destructive neoliberal policy). I would like to see it do something beyond creating new bureaucracies and get back to trying to make the lives of everyday Europeans better - it hasn't been interested in that for a long time now...

How is the German precariat doing?

investigate-europe.eu/publications/europes-precariat/
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
25 Feb 2020 #508
Probably, Merkel acted her conscience when she, actually Schaeuble, enacted those austerity measures against Greece to prevent her going under from taking the EU with her.

Can't say as I blame her, but of course, Tsipras and the naysayers love to brand the "mean, harsh Germans" and the big bad boys from Bruxelles, even though the government of Greece freely admitted they were in desperate financial straights!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
25 Feb 2020 #509
I would like to see it do something beyond

Well, for that we would need exactly this kind of much deeper cooperation that most members want to avoid.

There could be a common social benefits system for all, there could be a common minimum wage, common health care and the same labor rights for all etc...but that needs joint ministries, a joint bureaucracy, shared finances and most of all, a supra-national supervision...where a national government would lose the control about all this.

Those who want that are often accused of wanting a "super state" or worse....you could do something and work at home to support this kind of closer integration and then help to send politicians to Brussels who support that...

Don't blame the current EU for not working miracles! The EU can only be as good as it's members allow...

How is the German precariat doing?

So well, that it has become the land of milk and honey for the rest of the world...it seems...
OP Weimarer 10 | 620
4 Mar 2020 #510
Im a pure bred German and as i said, im damn proud for my heritage

tz

That said, im on this forum, because last year, Poland appeared more and more like an enemy. I was interested why Poles care so much about Nordstream II ect.

Beside that i never had much interest in Poland, beside the meteor crash site. Its funny, because i never visited Poland, even so its not far. I never visited eastern europe at all.

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