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Poland in the European Union. Polexit?


Dirk diggler 7 | 3,399    
12 Mar 2018  #241
Hell ya looks like Berlusconi is in talks with Obran to join V4. Italy + Austria and we're sea to sea!!!
Ziemowit 10 | 2,956    
12 Mar 2018  #242
But it's not the kind of Intermarium Crow has been dreaming of?
Crow 141 | 7,007    
12 Mar 2018  #243
THEY would do anything to prevent Poland from doing right thing. THEY know if they let Poland form Intermarium with Serbia (via Hungary, rest of Visegrad, etc), THEY losing control over Poland, THEY losing ways to manipulate Russia-Poland antagonism, THEY losing ways to use Poland in attack on Russia, THEY losing Poland as their shield against Russia, THEY losing chance to sell parts of Poland to Russia to split Poland.

So, stooping Poland now for them is must. Later, if Intermarium is formed, attacking Intermarium would be challenging Russia, China, Japan, Brazil, India. Would be challenging new world order.

God help Poland for right now Poland is in alliance with its mortal enemies and Poland is in phase to make some historic choices.

But it's not the kind of Intermarium Crow has been dreaming of?

Exactly. But not only me. Think why Pilsudski didn`t talk about ``V4. Italy + Austria and we're sea to sea``. Its not just about from sea to sea. Its about having your particular interests protected among those to whom you can trust and on whom you have influence, who understand you even on emotional level. Poland can influence Serbia to the magnificent levels, while Poland can only expect to be used by Italy and Austria.

Essentially, only joint state with Serbia guaranties real power to Poland. With Serbia, Poland facing Austria, Germany and other western powers as partners. As equal partner. Minimum. No, not exactly due to power of Serbia but due to intersection of powerful influences and forces that goes thru and via Serbia.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,399    
12 Mar 2018  #244
Serbia would be a benefit but v4 esp poland is a bit weary bc of their friendship with putin. Plus they dont bring much political or economic weight againat the eu
Crow 141 | 7,007    
12 Mar 2018  #245
Serbia can offer much more to Poland and Visegrad group then opposite. Actually, if Poland fails to escape EU and NATO dictate and fails to end its isolation from Serbia, one after one members of Visegrad group would abandon Poland and seek to join with Serbia. No, they won`t abandon Poland due to some betrayal but, simple because they won`t follow official Poland in madness that is eternal servitude to western Europe.

Example1: Vucic: Serbia-China friendship made of steel
b92/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2018&mm=03&dd=12&nav_id=103685

Example2: Chinese president accepts invitation to visit Serbia
b92/eng/news/world.php?yyyy=2018&mm=03&dd=12&nav_id=103679
delphiandomine 86 | 16,369    
12 Mar 2018  #246
Remember that the Czechs and Slovaks don't want to fight with the EU. Fico and Babis are both firmly pro-EU on the vast majority of issues, especially Slovakia which relies massively on Western companies.

And well, it looks like Babis is relying on the Communists to be able to function as PM.
Tacitus 1 | 543    
12 Mar 2018  #247
Is that a joke? They certainly have no mandate for any such thing since they hold no formal positions in Brussels.
[/quote]
Such reforms always have to be instigated by the member states, since they must agree to the loss of sovereignity. And France and Germany have usually the diving force behind deeper integrations, nohing unusual here.

As for the rest of your post. Macron won his election campaign with the promise to reform Europe, and Merkel has now formed a government and is thus fully legitimized to do the same. This will be her last term in office, and she knows that she can fully cement her legacy as the saviour of the EU by making sure that the EU is prepared for future crisis. She will also have little trouble with the AfD on this matter, since a) most Germans like the EU and want it to work and b) te AfD has so far done little to critize the EU because of this.

The message from voters in lots of countries has been to slow down on the pan EU integration already, it's not wanted.

Not wanted in a few country perhaps, but the core countries are still very much commited to it. But I'd prefer it anyway if some countries press on with deeper integration, and leave the rest to either follow them, or be left behind.
mafketis 16 | 5,896    
12 Mar 2018  #248
, but the core countries

that's twooooo countries out of..... how many?

Not much evidence anywhere else of a crying need for even more centralization

she can fully cement her legacy as the saviour of the EU

Free kool-aid! Just try one cup! Never mind those bodies lying around....
Tacitus 1 | 543    
12 Mar 2018  #249
that's twooooo countries out of..... how many?

They are far from the only one, the Benelux countries among others are also in favour. Anyway we shall see how their idea proceed in the next months.

Not much evidence anywhere else of a crying need for even more centralization

No doubt the Eurozone will see some further reforms, and there have been many demands (including by EU sceptical countries like the Czech Republic) for greater military cooperation among European countries. Those are the two areas where we might see some drastic changes rather soon. It already started with the PESCO initiative.
Crow 141 | 7,007    
12 Mar 2018  #250
Poles let us cut this sh**. Let us decent Sarmatians unite and offer our two hard brotherly penises to our foes. Two must be enough to them. See, I am sure.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,399    
12 Mar 2018  #251
Ibrahim ibn Jakub in the 10th century wrote :

''The Slavs live in disunity, if they would unite no one could defeat them''

It is time we end all fighting between Slavs and focus on our common enemies.
dolnoslask 5 | 1,918    
12 Mar 2018  #252
But our enemies still contrive to divide us .
Crow 141 | 7,007    
12 Mar 2018  #253
Enemies mistaken for moving so brutally against Serbia. Powerful, unstoppable forces coming in our aid now and, same as in WWI, all Slavs should profit on incoming chaos around Serbia and use opportunity to secure its independence from western Europe. Then, we should talk reasonable and avoid new mistakes.
johnny reb 15 | 3,052    
11 Sep 2018  #254
But our enemies still contrive to divide us .

You are a very wise man dolno.
Poland should get the fvck out of the E.U. while it still has a chance.
The E.U. is going to be hijacked by some very elite people, particularly Germany.
If the people of Poland can not see the method of madness behind Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline they are blind.
Since these pipelines travel directly from Russia to Germany, they enable Putin to shut off gas supplies to nations in Eastern Europe including Poland while keeping supplies flowing to Germany.

Once the gas flows from Russia to Germany much of it can be shipped to other E.U. countries giving Germany power over the E.U.

Face it, Germany already dominates Europe.
That domineering is a big part of why Britain wanted out of the E.U.
With the Nord Stream pipeline Germany will be able to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire and the stage has been set.
Divide Britain and divide the United States and delete NATO........that is Putin's plan that we are now seeing happen.
The imperialistic ambitions that prompted Germany to start two world wars is alive and well.
Germany could become a nuclear power very quickly if they wanted to.
Poland will have to decide soon who they want for their master.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,399    
11 Sep 2018  #255
Poland should get the fvck out of the E.U. while it still has a chance.

Not gonna happen for a while. Eu has huge support in poland - over 80%. Even though millions of poles dont like how the eu has shifted to the far left lately and totally politicized the commission and despise how unelected eurocrats say sh1t like '60k fascists marched in warsaw' and show contempt for poland, theyll stall in the eu as money keeps coming. Question is whether eu support will remain that high once poland becomes a net payee and stops getting as much money.

the people of Poland can not see the method of madness behind Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline they are blind.

Poles arent fond of nord stream 2 and our government hates it just as much as trump

Once the gas flows from Russia to Germany much of it can be shipped to other E.U. countries giving Germany power over the E.U.

Yup poles are gradually diversifying gas providers including the us.
Tacitus 1 | 543    
12 Sep 2018  #256
With the Nord Stream pipeline Germany will be able to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire and the stage has been set.

Even with Nord Stream, Russian gas will only amount to a fraction of Germany's energy supply, let alone the EUs. So your theory does not hold much water here.
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,399    
12 Sep 2018  #257
Even with Nord Stream, Russian gas will only amount to a fraction of Germany's energy supply, let alone the EUs

money.cnn.com/2018/06/05/news/economy/russia-europe-gas-dependency/index.html

The European Union imports 69% of its natural gas, according to the European Commission. The latest available data shows 37% of the imported gas comes from Russia, about 33% from Norway, and 11% from Algeria.

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-17/russian-gas-exports-to-eu-hit-seasonal-record-amid-ukraine-talks

rt.com/business/434911-gazprom-russia-europe-exports

Gas deliveries to Germany jumped 12.3 percent.

37% is a pretty big fraction Tac....and that's only going to go up with Nord Stream 2 - not down...

So your theory does not hold much water here.@ Tacitus

And while the European Union vowed to cut its dependency on Russian gas after the crisis in Ukraine, Russian exports to Europe have risen to record levels in the last two years.
johnny reb 15 | 3,052    
12 Sep 2018  #258
Even with Nord Stream, Russian gas will only amount to a fraction of Germany's energy supply,

While meantime pumping BILLIONS of dollars into the Russians economy to feed their war machine while NATO (the U.S.A.) spends billions to defend Germany ?

Do you blame Trump for calling out Merkel on this ? REALLY !
In 2008 when Russia shocked the world with it's invasion of the former Soviet nation of Georgia bringing part of it under Moscow's control, Germany said little about it and did nothing.

Seemed like the two nations had almost worked out a Molotov Ribbentrop deal.
Then again when Russia invaded Ukraine bringing part of it under Russian control, again Germany said little about it and did nothing.
I am beginning to wonder what else Germany and Russia have agreed to.
Poland should be getting very nervous about Germanys control over the E.U.
Time for Poland to say good-bye to Germany and the E.U.
Atch 15 | 2,438    
12 Sep 2018  #259
Here is a link to the full text of Juncker's speech delivered to the European Parliament today:

ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/soteu2018-speech_en_0.pdf

Addressing some points relevant to Poland and to this thread Juncker stated (the bolding of the text is Juncker's own, not mine):

The European Commission, this Parliament and all other 26 Member States will always show loyalty and solidarity with Ireland when it comes to the Irish border.

The Commission will resist all attacks on the rule of law. We continue to be very concerned by the developments in some of our Member States. Article 7 must be applied whenever the rule of law is threatened.

We need to be very clear on one point: judgements from the Court of Justice must be respected and implemented. This is vital. The European Union is a community of law.Respecting the rule of law and abiding by Court decisions are not optional

Incidentally the European Parliament votes today on whether to trigger Article 7 against Hungary.
Ironside 47 | 9,017    
12 Sep 2018  #260
No doubt the Eurozone will see some further reforms,

hmm... why only euro-zone? What kind of reforms? Are you gonna abolish European commission and parliament and create something feasible in their place? Like people would vote their representatives into a European congress and then countries can sent two each representatives to European senate? Will the laws they pass binding even to Germany that has provision that their own local constitution takes precedence over the EU law?

If not - how about abolish all that Brussels pen-pusher seats - saving tons of many in the process and create from representatives of each country some kind of UN security council in which each and very country from the EU has a power of veto? From there build some structures there are needed up? As well as polices very one are OK with>? If not how about create a commission that each country of the EU would delegate someone (or few of them( to work on a new EU constitution and once the work is completed to done away with the current one?

Rather than taka about reform about more Europe or about that mythical EU military cooperation which is just an empty talk that has been talked about rather than about EU finances about EU banking system and so on ......in all it is a nit white rabbit to chase, not a real issue. EU has already working military cooperation and that organization is called - hold your breath - NATO!

So if Germany who is holding EU structures by the balls and is happy with it working as long as it can get its way (for the most part) doesn't want to make it into something that would be real an European Union or some kind of a real long term project that would actually work that means that all this talk about reform about correcting this or that in reality means only a one thing - Germany want changes that would make grip it has on the EU tighten - if all will do as we say the EU will work they say using different wording.

Well if that what you after - good luck. Ah and here is a middle finger to your little empire/middle Europe or whatnot wet dream! FO!
Ironside 47 | 9,017    
12 Sep 2018  #261
Oh your coffer are so deep in a large part due to the EU. So, stop whining. if you have some money issue in Germany it is because your gov is feeding you that EU excuse, to cover their failing. Less ideology and more pragmatism would have a better overall effect. Don't buy gov BS just because they say slogans you like.

North stream I and II says Germany is pretty influential and can do what they want? Where is the EU battling that project on ecological ground? eh? Few infected trees in Poland caused uproar in EU circles and German press, somehow it hush hush about that huge ecological gamble with the north stream that is not really needed but for the geopolitical Russian games.

I could go issue by issue to point out examples where there are double standards of the EU dealing with countries other than France and Germany. You can get away with almost anything.

Germany doesn't need to defy Brussels if Brussels does it biding. You do see a flaw in your argument/logic here do you?

Europe needs to be more independent in its' security,

You gonna pay for it? IF not, we can talk but that just talk.

Creating a Security Council has been one of the proposals Merkel made recently.

How about creating in the EU instead of all those offices in Brussels a central chamber (or whatnot) that would work like UN security council not being actually a security council?
johnny reb 15 | 3,052    
12 Sep 2018  #262
Germany has been buying gas from Russia since the Cold War,

Right while NATO (the U.S.A,) has been giving Germany military protection against Russia at the same time.
What a great deal for Germany to have their cake and eat it too.......until Trump came along and told Germany the gravy train is over.

The United States pumps Billions into the German economy every year just from the U.S. military bases located in Germany to boot.

Of course, it is utterly unfounded criticism

Hardly Tacitus, it is glaringly obvious that Germany is playing the piano at both ends to obtain power and be in control of the E.U.

Finally the U.S. has a president with some balls to stand up and say 'game over'.
This kind of German domineering is a big part of why Britain wanted out of the European Union.
Poland should choose the same path before they become a pawn of Germany.
Tacitus 1 | 543    
12 Sep 2018  #263
Oh your coffer are so deep in a large part due to the EU.

Sure, which is why I support helping out other countries. But as pointed out by me, when Germany negotiated with the debtor nations this was the only time Germany had a semblencr of the influencr you describe. And even that was only because the other Northern Europeans were backing Berlin on this.

Few infected trees in Poland caused uproar in EU circles

Those are completely different cases, for one, the infection was simply an excuse to go along with the logging. Moreover the EU is reviewed both cases and made a judgement, but in the case of Poland, Warsaw defied it. Germany has done no such thing, so no analogy here. And to be honest, the ecological part is not convincing in the case of Nord Stream, or else we would have to ban all pipelines.

You do see a flaw in your argument/logic here do you?

The flaw in your logic is that Germany has not the influence you seem to believe. Germany is the EUs largest country, and has more influence than any other singly country, which is only appropiate given its' size. But Germany is one of the countries that gets outvoted in the EU Council most often, which is a better indication for its' influence than any superficial impressions.

The reason why the myth of German hegemony exists is because it is convenient for many to think that way. It is easier for journalists to narrow European politics down to Berlin, then trying to paint an accurate picture of the complex nature of European politics. British media are especially guilty of this.

It is easier for others to hide in Berlin's shadow, e.g what several smaller countries did during the Euro crisis. Finance minister Schäuble has often been painted as the hawk, but he was among his European colleagues one of the more moderates.

And finally it is easier for affected governments to pretend that they are opressed by Berlin. It is easier to say "Berlin forced them to vote against us " than "We pissed off all the other countries so no one wanted to support us".
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,399    
12 Sep 2018  #264
Regardless of whether its 37% or 50 to 70% (eurostat estimate), germany is already captive to russia certainly for its gas which nord stream 2 will basically double further increasing their reliance and vulnerability. Can you imagine what would happen if putin decides to **** with germany by arbitrarily raising the price? That's exactly what i would do once nord stream 2 is completed because even though german will complain theyll still pay for it due to the 11 bil spent on the project and the fact that they womt be able to find a new provider for a significant chunk of germanys energy demands at the drop of a hat. He could even stop all shipments in the case of a conflict and germans would be scratching their heads on how what to do. Amd its not just natural gas, lot of oil comes from russia too.

Merkel complains about putin being aggressive and annexing crimea but doesnt seem to have a problem sending billions over to russia amd doubling imports of gas once nord stream 2 is finished, money that will undoubtedly make it's way to the russian military which threatens europe. And were supposed to protect germany even though they don't meet the 2% benchmark? Naw fts...
johnny reb 15 | 3,052    
12 Sep 2018  #265
Naw fts...

That's what Trump said too when he refused to shake Merkel's two faced hand.

if putin decides to **** with germany by arbitrarily raising the price?

Which raises the next question, "why is Germany paying Russia less for gas then the rest of the E.U. is if the E.U. is suppose to be of ONE."?

Germany gets their gas from Russia at a cheaper rate then the rest of the E.U. does.
Russia has Germany in their back pocket.
Next question is expands on your remark Dirk, "He could even stop all shipments in the case of a conflict and germans"....
and without NATO to back up Germany I would guess Germany would soon be speaking Russian.
No U.S.A., no Britain, no Poland, no nobody to support Germany's secret war to dominate the E.U. anymore.
All exposed by President Trump when he said, "Game over Angela".
Is it a wonder Germany hates Trump.
Ironside 47 | 9,017    
12 Sep 2018  #266
Those are completely different cases, for one

There are. For one the north stream's potential ecological disaster would affect all countries around the Baltic sea. Whereas if Poland would have chopped all her trees to pieces, it would affect only Poland. Also it would be reversible in a few decades or in a 100 years you could have pretty much reforest the place.

In the case of the North stream the result of a disaster would be much more severe and most likely not completely reversible - at least the moment.

Just to drive the point home a case that illustrated well double standards:
Germany are pushing/supporting the EU interfering into internal Polish affairs that has no legal grounds nor legitimacy to do so. Those measures are well outside EU agreements.

Not long ago in Bavaria in the similar cirncumsctens Germans chopped up their infected trees - not a murmur from The EU and the German press supports it whole and those few ecologist/activists who dared to protest - terrorists.

So, you fairy story about great EU and Poland who is a bad apple is just a story to justify double standard, interference, incursions German and the EU deem justified, Well Polish people disagree. Take that.

The flaw in your logic is that Germany has not the influence you seem to believe.

Come on. Not as great as believe? what kind of measurement standard is that? I'm talking about facts.
Germany and France are influential. They can get away with bending EU laws, breaking it, or with doing whatever they deem right. Others should just walk the line. If they dare to stray a little or follow Germany example woe to them!

That is not how you build a Union. You build it giving an equal footing to all the countries involved. In such a politically delicate construction whether or not a country is big, small, a power house or economically insignificant it should not have affect their voice or their rights. IF the EU is to work and to be something other than a hegemony where a one orders and others obey Germany needs to see to it.

More powerful, richer and bigger countries will be more persuasive anyway as a matter of course. You need do away with that blatant double standards practice and that dimwitted and dumb Prussian idea of an order.

The way it goes seems to me it goes in the direction of the hegemony not the union. Hence I don't think it would be practicable for Poland to participate in such an endeavor.
TheOther 5 | 3,381    
12 Sep 2018  #267
The United States pumps Billions into the German economy every year just from the U.S. military bases located in Germany

Leave. Close the bases down. The German population (approx. 42%) will be more than happy, I guarantee you. Just like the Japanese on Okinawa. What you always seem to forget is that a large percentage of American troops in Germany are not exclusively NATO, but support for operations in the Middle East and beyond. We chose to maintain these bases to project global power. Don't want that anymore? Good, let's save a few hundred billion dollars worldwide.

Germany gets their gas from Russia at a cheaper rate then the rest of the E.U. does.

Because they pay for the infrastructure? In the end, Russian gas will still be much cheaper for the Europeans than the American one.
johnny reb 15 | 3,052    
12 Sep 2018  #268
Russian gas will still much cheaper for the Europeans

Not if the money used to buy the gas is used to build a war machine to be used against the E.U. down the line it isn't.

Leave. Close the bases down.

Are you pretending to be a German citizen to be speaking for them ?
TheOther 5 | 3,381    
12 Sep 2018  #269
No, but there was a poll that was published a few months ago. 42% of Germans want the US troops out. Look it up yourself.

is used to build a war machine

The US imports from Russia in 2017 were $17,021.4 million. Also for building the Russian war machine?
johnny reb 15 | 3,052    
12 Sep 2018  #270
42% of Germans want the US troops out.

Out of Germany but what percentage want to dissolve NATO ?

17,021.4 million

Chump change compared to the BILLIONS that well be sent to Russia for gas.




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