Poland in the European Union. Polexit?

You seem to think Poland would just be another Belarus if it weren't for the EU. You are wrong.

Over the past decade Poland has done very well while other EU countries (especially the more older members) lagged and staggered along.

Poland actual competes with other EU member states for business and investments. Businesses which set up shop in Poland could have chosen other comparative and newer member states like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria but they didn't.

No one in Poland ever told businesses to wait to invest and set up shop until Brussels or Berlin gave the OK.

Poland also smartly maintained the zloty rather than abandon it for the Euro which proved to be to Poland's advantage. That was a decision made in Warsaw not Brussels or Berlin.

You also fail to comprehend that Poland is one of the most populous countries in Europe (a large consumer base is always attractive to businesses) with a well educated and skilled workforce.

In fact...


atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pol/

Britain announced it was leaving the EU and it has been nothing but negotiations on both sides to keep some sort of economic deals going. But that's just face saving maneuvers among politicians. Seriously, what does Britain itself have to offer to anyone? Not much really. London (apart from its overpriced, ho-hum tourism along with the high chance of being killed by terrorists) only has The City (which is already being courted to relocate to Poland, Germany or France). Outside of London it is mostly bleak, shuddered high-streets. Any meager agricultural or manufacturing output has always been uncompetitive due to poor quality and the artificially high value of the British pound.

If Poland announced it was leaving it would be the end of the EU itself. But Poland would continue to be a world player especially economically thanks to the Polish government's policies which put Poland first.

Foreign corporation moved into Poland because of a well educated workforce and low wage levels. Same happened in the Czech Republic. Geography plays a role in investment decisions. Romania or Hungary are at a disadvantage (logistically) because of their distance to the main markets of the EU.


Given sufficient investments, a country with a GDP of - say - 1 billion has naturally a much higher growth rate than a country with a GDP if 1 trillion.


No, not at all. I already said that the Poles can be very proud of what they've achieved so far. But ask yourself the question what would've happened without EU membership. Millions of Poles would've stayed in the country and the unemployment rate would've gone through the roof for a very, very long time. Many foreign corporations would've avoided Poland, so you could've kissed a ton of jobs and tax revenue goodbye. Third, your infrastructure would still be in shambles, and your old industries most likely, too. Be honest, in what fields was Poland competitive in 2003? Would these industries have provided enough jobs for the people? What about pensions?

This chart puts everything into perspective quite well: statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-projected-gdp-capita.php

Look at Ireland.

A position of hostility and imperialism, they could try for a change to negotiate with Poland some kind of agreement.


Which you clearly lack. Why would you insist on something that is blatantly untrue?

Poland is owning the eu left and right and any person who knows about negotiation can see that. Eu is kowtowing to poland and v4 instead of the other way around. No more threats of fines for migrants, no threats of fines for logging, no threats to culling eu funds bc of court changes, abortion laws, etc. Timmermans and eu leaders even said that poland will continue to receive funds regardless of court changes. Article 7 is doomed. Eu simply cannot afford all these battles on so many different fronts. The eu has more problems with brexit, terrorism, rise of the right, trump, rebels poland and v4, stagnant euro, and so much else.

I
For now pis and supporters are enjoying eu kissing both of polands cheeks.

@Ironside


About what? It is Poland who is breaking agreements that it pledged to adhere to when it joined the EU. Besides, there is no room to compromise over essential values of the EU like the rule of law and judicary independence.

@ Dirk


This is of course wrong, just like the rest of your post.

The Euro is not stagnant - it has gained strongly against the pound since Brexit and the dollar since Trumps election. You can see money talking about where people think will be a safe investment.

EU funds might only be 3% of GDP, but they are closer to 20% of investment and in peak years it was over 30 %. That is very important since investment multiplies. This is stuff from literally week 1 of an economics course.

In fact without this investment, the amount of capital expenditure by Polish owned businesses is one of the lowest in the developed world - Partly because of the Audi syndrome, where successful people first buy flash cars and houses rather than re-investing in the business.

Polish exports to the EU are 30 percent of GDP - a figure that has doubled since the 90s and which would probably halve if there was a Polish exit.

Reimittances from Poles working abroad are another 1.5 percent of GDP and much of it goes into houses and domestic infrastructure (new rooves, plumbing, new furniture)

Finally millions of Poles are employed by EU companies in Poland - often receiving valuable training and certainly without that the pool of management talent in Poland wold be very thin - the education system here is good technically but awful for soft skills.

These are the facts that should be widely disseminated, not some economically illiterate twaddle about its only 3 percent. And if the price of all of that is that you might have to take in a couple of thousand migrants is that really so onerous ?

Can we here from a Pole in Poland about whether the EU is beneficial, rather than words shouted across the table of the Red Apple buffet after a dodgy bottle of Krupnik ?

@Tacitus

The fact is there have been zero fines issued for refusing to take migrants, zero fines for logging, no threat to eu funds over court reforms, etc. Eu is backpedalling and kowtowing to poland begging them to respect rule of law because they know their article 7 is doomed.

Eu lost every battle and the war as a whole.with poland. It cant be any clearer. Even timmermans recently affirmed that there will be no cutting of eu funds to poland. Eu got pwned

@cms

We will NEVER take in people we dont want in our borders. This is a decision for polish citizens of whom 3/4 a vast majority has said no arab or african migration. We took in a milliion ukranians and we dont want the terror diseases and rapes migrants from me and africa bring with them. Period. We dont want it and the eu is respecting our decision - thats why theyve never fined poland and timmermans affirmed that polamd will continue to receive eu funds till 2020

And yes the euro is qeak (just like eberything else coming from western eu) thats why poland has said it will not implement it and will only do so IF its in a much better position ij the future

Don't you live in the USA?


Do you include Polish citizens who live in Poland (i.e. not you), or anyone with a Polish passport, such as those living in USA (you), UK, Germany etc?

Who should make this decision?

So come to Warsaw and try and do a big deal in zloty or dollars - over a certain level here then business works in Euro.

ALL POLISH CITIZENS - anyone with Polish citizenship is eligible to vote whether he or she lives in Poland or not permantly, or is say a Pakistani who now has Polish citizenship. Such a decision is up to the Polish citizens, of whom 3/4 reject migration from Africa and Middle East.

Yet again EU threatened to fine us 2 bil euro for refusing to take in parasites (misery loves company - solidarity means also having terror attacks and nonstop rapes in your country as of course Germany, france, and Sweden can't be miserable by themselves) and of course failed to. They've since forgotten all about the fine and cutting EU budgets and now timmermans said that Poland will continue to receive eu funds regardless of court changes, refusal to take in migrants, etc. etc.


Polish citizens and the democratically elected government who affirmed that they will not take from ME/Africa, who Kaczynski said carry various protozoa and diseases (i.e. scabies, HIV, etc.) . We don't want em - according to CBOS, 74% of Poles reject migration from ME and Africa and that statistic included roughly half of PO voters

Well, no, becasue you've contradicted yourself there, old boy.

You first say that ANYONE with a Polish passport (including overseas, diaspora etc) is a citizen and should have a say on migration, then then claim that 3/4 of Polish citizens have rejected it.

When did all of these millions of overseas Poles vote on this? Can you should us the polling figures? No, of course you can't because they don't exist - nobody asked them. So your "3/4 reject" is actually garbage, isn't it, because there's about 20 million Poles who haven't been asked yet.


Good job you're in America then, so far away from any immigrants!

Well, if you don't know about what and the same can be said about German establishment, FY! Poland should go for polexit.

No dumbass, I clearly said any POLISH CITIZEN can vote... nothing about Polish passports...


and indeed according to CBOS, 3/4 of Poles reject migration from middle east and Africa. They have no problem with migrants from Europe as evidenced by their taking in of a million ukranians. They also don't have a problem taking in people from india because they know they assimilate and are an asset to the country. But random muslim or African migrants? No way, according to 3/4 of Poles sampled by CBOS

politico.eu/article/refugees-europe-poland-follows-hungarys-footsteps-in-corralling-migrants
breitbart.com/london/2017/11/24/watch-polish-government-releases-video-blasting-eu-record-migrant-crisis

watch the video on breitbart - this IS STRAIGHT FROM THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS LOLOLOLOL

That's the difference between EU cucks and Poland - EU cucks like the Swedes and Germans makes propaganda vidoes and pamplets telling migrants its not okay to rape women and how to pick European women up. Poland instead makes propaganda illustrating their stance

The fact is the vast majority of Poles, living in Poland and abroad, overwhelmingly reject migration from ME or Africa to the motherland.

Is that 'dum bass' or 'dumb ass'? I can't tell. But, dude, how many sales you made today? Cos you've been on this board like, ALL DAY, firefighting on multiple threads. You're making your sales quotas, aren't you? Tech just don;t sell itself y'know. It needs a goon to make the cold calls!


Yup, and you said in #192 that a "Polish citizen" was anyone with Polish citizenship who was "eligible to vote" [you didn't specify in what] lived in Poland or not. So that's the diaspora, anyone with a Polish passport (otherwise you can't vote, right? And you aren't 'Polish', right?), of which there are about 55 million, and of which about 20 million of those don't live in Poland.

Making sense to you, yet, young fella?

And so what's your point? If they're a citizen, they can exercise their right to vote. Its up to them if you don't want to. The Polish citizens who did vote chose PiS based on their campaign promises and they continue to have 2x-3x the support of 2nd place (aka last place in politics) PO. And even PO supporters are far more conservative than those say in Germany, France, or USA that support the 'left' parties.


2 threads.... also take a look in the mirror harry - you're the one who deemed it necessary to respond. You don't have to worry about me or what I do at work - I'll be fine.

Just pointing out your continued attempts to attack, which constantly misfire, by in #196 trying to blow smoke by saying I'd misunderstood you, which I then clearly explained to you that you were being incoherent and contradictory. At which point you seem to have given up and tried to move on to something else.

You do that a lot.

Aww, buddy, I told you, I'm off work sick - can't do much else at the moment, I've got influenza. But I'm actually being paid (sick pay) for schooling you today. I consider it public service ;)

How much did you make from your sales today?

Stick to the topic of the thread please

I consult in this job, I do not run a small sales team to work a territory as I did in my last job... but to answer your question exponentially more than you ever will and we can compare paystubs and assets anytime anyday = )

Now more news on how Poland keeps pwning the EU:
ft.com/content/5072f438-04e0-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5

Poland's government is exploiting nationalist grievances

breitbart.com/london/2017/11/24/watch-polish-government-releases-video-blasting-eu-record-migrant-crisis
Repeat - Self explanatory - wonderful video made by our government

Few in Brussels expect Morawiecki to sharply change the PiS line. He has said he is fully behind the PiS overhaul of the judiciary, which he says is needed to rid Poland of post-communist relics.

reuters.com/article/us-eu-poland/eu-keen-to-avoid-a-fight-with-warsaw-but-will-want-real-concessions-idUSKBN1F72LN

"The European Union is a temporary project, not an eternal one. Europe and her nations are eternal."
"The average Pole wants the polish to govern in Poland because this is our nation. The average Pole wants to be governed by people who consider his interests and safety first and foremost, and that is not the EU." so true

express.co.uk/news/politics/908753/european-union-news-polexit-end-eu-poland-mep-robert-iwaszkiewicz

Mr Iwaszkiewicz said: "I am aware that for a country as big as Poland to leave the EU, would spell the end of this project, which is why the UE leaders will not decide for this final act.

"I stand by Poland will my whole heart and I believe that the Government can work out a modus vivendi with the EU."

Warsaw REFUSES to stop reforms despite Brussels threats
express.co.uk/news/world/910570/Poland-European-Union-judicial-reform-funding-threat

In a joint statement, the leaders of Hungary, Czechia, Croatia and Slovakia, alongside Poland, said: "EU institutions should treat all member states equally and act strictly within the remits of their respective Treaty-based competences.

"The right of member states to carry out domestic reforms within their competences should be respected."

BYE BYE ARTICLE 7

Poland already learnt that lesson not to be so arrogant twice.


On the contrary. It would probably mean the core countries would decide that enough is enough and that there would be a choice given - either integrate or get out. Poland could well wake up and find that she's surrounded by EU countries who have accepted deeper integration, while also choosing to put severe trade barriers in place against economies who don't play ball.

I don't think you realise just how dependent Poland is on the EU. Poland isn't able to replace all the benefits easily, and the only other option on the table is the Serbian option - to have your economy increasingly come under the control of Russia and China. Do you seriously think that China especially is going to do anything good for Poland that doesn't benefit China first and foremost?

There's a reason why over 80% of voters consistently support EU membership. The alternative is just too frightening for them.

The number is closer to 90% according to CBOS. It's mainly for economic reasons. Yes, Poles support the EU. I support the EU as an economic union too and wouldn't want Poland to leave just yet - but certainly not as a political one that interferes in a sovereign states' affairs and that's how most poles feel. For now, yes it's worth staying in the EU. But if they're going to blackmail us and say things like you must take in a number of migrants that we decide and from places that we decide into your sovereign country, then no support will fall.

Poland has been punching well above it's weight lately in the EU arena. It needed this. The country and people are emboldened and realize they can stand up to the EU's threats and dictates and say NO - we didn't vote for this, we didn't agree to these kinds of things like taking in migrants when we joined in 2004, and the EU has to listen due to Poland's clout - especially as the leader of the V4. Poland had a problem where it thought of itself as reliant on the west for economic survival. However, now it understands that it is a rich nation and it does not have to blindly follow whatever Germany tells them. This isn't the 90's nor 2006. We're one of the biggest economies in Europe and while we agree with 99% of what the EU asks of us - certain things are a red line.

Ehh... Poland economy is foreign owned. They wouldn't put barrier against their own companies.

Poland economy (small Polish owned companies) is not supported by the Polish state.

Not surprising as you are milking out more than anyone else out of it...

But now which of the things I listed the EU is needed for ?

Correct. About 2/3 of capital in PL banks is foreign, 1/3 Polish.


Aside from a pretty decent corporate tax rate, no you're right PL doesn't care much for small businesses - unless they aren't paying their taxes of course in which case all hell breaks lose.

Hungary has 9% these days, and 40% tax allowance on interest payable on loans taken by small companies. It's actually also possible to get a tax saving of 110% if you make certain investments in sport, which is...well, I wish we had the same!

VAT is a bastard though at 27%.

I think 19 percent is a fair rate - more of an issue is how it is spent.

The Hungarian consumer has no choice but to pay the VAT that they had to introduce to fund the corporate tax cuts.

They needed those tax cuts to maintain investment after investors got spooked by Orban forcibly nationalising banks and targeting other foreign investors.

Brave Poland would found the way!

In the meanwhile, Racowie, Southern Sarmatians hold the Gate. And in the midst of battle our eyes looks to the North. Brothers, we would die sooner then our hope!

We shall know no fear.

But what about it's exports with Trump putting tariff's on imported aluminum 10% and steel 25%.
Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, dismissed Trump's national security justification and said the tariffs were "a blatant intervention to protect U.S. domestic industry."

He added, "We will not sit idly while our industry is hit with unfair measures that put thousands of European jobs at risk."
Canada is not a happy camper either.
While I agree with these tariff's I do not think that they should include America's military allies.

Why not? America first! You want cheap steel amd aluminum flooding in from ukraine where they can afford to pay people $300 bucks a month? I dont.

Military alliance is one thing, business is business

The smart money was shorting foreign steel yesterday

That`s in what THEY invested. That was the plan. Payday has come for slaves to pay

US is doing the same sh1t to Ukraine that they've done Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Armenia, etc. Anytime US and people like Soros gets involved in a foreign country, people die and suffer. Ukraine is no different.