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Poland in the European Union. Polexit?


TheWizard - | 238
15 Sep 2018 #361
Ah and once again we get back to what someone can see. When kfc and other highly visible market players came obviously everyone noticed. Ooooh the big change! Those places are filled now.

So when for example ( out of 1000s available ) abb makes stuff in Poland no one notices because most of those things are not consumer items. They are commercial or industrial items and not visible to you. The 2nd world communist spots for food retail and such things have long been gone and were the first to go. Take any item, a petrol pump, you see a petrol pump, inside is 100s of components made by different people and various companies. Yep you cant see it, so if you are not in business, economically illiterate or just plain not interested you don't see it. You also don't invest in it and will not be profiting from it.
cms neuf - | 1,018
15 Sep 2018 #362
There is some truly nutty economics on this thread. All of the stupid claims come from people who don't live in Poland and have little or no

experience of what it was like before 2004.

Yes EU funds are only 2% of GDP but trade with the EU, investment from EU companies, salaries deriving therefrom, spending all those salaries in the Polish economy et cetera et cetera adds up to more like 50% of GDP. Which makes sense because GDP has more than doubled since 2004.

Of course the zloty was getting stronger in 1999 - that's because accession talks had already started and it was clear that Poland would join the EU.

Of course the road building program is flawed but it is still a hell of a lot better than before 2004 when literally nothing was done. Want a comparison? Try driving around a non-EU country like Ukraine or Moldova.

The number of foreign investors in Poland since the start of EU accession talks has tripled. Yes some of the big boys came in before then - mainly those that could afford losses while the economy strengthened.

You have votes and voices in the US and your government they can spend money on whatever they like. How you suddenly decide that you know what is best for this economy from your Illinois bedrooms is beyond me.
johnny reb 18 | 3,753
15 Sep 2018 #363
And your newest obsession with the Holy Roman Empire comes from which source, JR?

The Catholic church has fueled all of the past six resurrections of a E.U.'s empire dream.
That is why the Holy Roman Empire is called holy.
This time around the problem is that Europe doesn't have the motivation to unify.
That is why 'economic union' has only taken it as far as it has.
It will get there eventually though.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #366
Definitely the decentralization.

In the todays german borders there are alone 7 cities which had been capitals at their times (Aachen, Magdeburg, Mainz, Cologne, Trier, Speyer and Nuremburg).

But that's only the Germans. Look at that:



That's why the HRE is a bad example to fight the EU. Not if you want to portray the EU as an opressive dictatorshipl

Actually the HRE was a good place to be, for most of the time, for most people, even Jews.
johnny reb 18 | 3,753
15 Sep 2018 #367
And you dislike the HRE why exactly?

Go look at it's past history and you will answer your own question.
In 1814 at the end of the Napoleon wars there were 39 States called Germany but it wasn't a nation.
Prussia combined the competing regions into the Second Reich.
Germany has followed this pattern in both wars, the same pattern being followed by the E.U.
To me this proves that the E.U. is not just a trading ploy.
It is another try by Germany to build a new German empire.
Russia would like this nothing more without NATO in their way.
That is why I say that Poland should be ready to Polexit
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #368
In 1814 at the end of the Napoleon wars there were 39 States called Germany but it wasn't a nation.

....the foundation of the HRE was build in 800, that's nearly 1000 years of history and you bang on about the last few years?

Germany has followed this pattern in both wars, the same pattern being followed by the E.U.

What pattern?

It is another try by Germany to build a new German empire.

Even if so, the HRE wasn't a german-only Empire...Germany wasn't even an idea for most f it's time....just look at the map.

I can't help it if you are fueled by anti-german paranoia but please leave the HRE out of it!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #369
You should look into the "Hanse" instead maybe. The "Hanseatic League".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

Now that was a german trading empire...economically extremely successful and with it also came with high german as the lingua franca...because of the wealth it brought the traders and the lands.

hanse.org/en



That would be more comparable to the EU...maybe...
johnny reb 18 | 3,753
15 Sep 2018 #370
What pattern?

I already explained that in my previous posts in this thread concerning the history of Europe.

please leave the HRE out of it!

The German empires of Europe throughout history are all connected.
Europe has seen a succession of empires all led by a church.
The ambitions of Germany to start two world wars are alive and well by constructing Nord Stream.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #371
What makes the german empires so different to...say...the spanish ones...or the french ones...or the british ones and their ambitions?
johnny reb 18 | 3,753
15 Sep 2018 #372
That was then, this is now.
The hand writing on the wall is so apparent to why Germany helped construct Nord Stream 2 a blind man can see it.
This will give German a whole lot of leverage over the E.U.
A British economist called the E.U. a "cloak for German ambitions".
There is no doubt in my mind that Germany will accomplish their goal.
The stage is being set for the violent resurrection of the HRE and Germany will be calling the shots.
By the looks of my old body lately I won't be alive to see it but you may be.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #373
This will give German a whole lot of leverage over the E.U.

How?

The stage is being set for the violent resurrection of the HRE....

You mean soon Central- and south Europe will be split again into more than 500 tiny countries and Brussels as the main seat of power will be dissolved? :)

.... and Germany will be calling the shots.

Which statelet will that be then?
Ironside 48 | 9,888
15 Sep 2018 #374
Europe has seen a succession of empires all led by a church.

Nah, Empire and Vatican were at odds most of the time. There were wars fought over what some people today take for granted. Division between holy and mundane between a pollical power and spiritual power between an Emperor and the Pope over who is superior to whom and who should listen to whom. That ended inconclusively and the Church settled for a spiritual power welding it to tell what is moral and what is not, what is right and what wrong. While Emperor claimed full power over a pollical realm - Over all Christendom which was challenged by France, Poland and England.

So don't get mislead by the Holy in the name of that organization. It wasn't lead by the Church.

The ambitions of Germany

The problem with Germany is they are too ambitious if they go for it they don' know when to stop, to give in an inch to gain a mile in the future. (To give an analogy they are like a mum who is a real control freak, she might mean well but she is not able to let it go that control even if her children are adults - it results in disaster all the time.) Plus if they are successful that goes into their heads ego grows too.

The same is with the EU and Germany now. They just cannot stop themselves from making things worse for everybody. Just because they think they have all the answers and all the power. It doesn't work that way. Yet, with Germans suborn determination that passes for a consistency in their part of the woods they continue down the slippery slope ....
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #375
So don't get mislead by the Holy in the name of that organization. It wasn't lead by the Church.

....or as Voltaire said so nicely:

"The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire!"
Lyzko 24 | 6,761
15 Sep 2018 #376
I also learned the same thing in school, only at that time during the late 1970's, that quote was attributed to Jakob Burkhardt, the famed Swiss historian.

Who knows, perhaps he purloined it from Voltaire:-)
johnny reb 18 | 3,753
15 Sep 2018 #377
Let me ask you this B.B.........
Do you see a stage being set for a world war like never before ?
Do you understand it ?
Today almost all nations are divided.
Their leaders are in disagreement with each other and are having political warfare.
Divide and conquer.
Even America and Britain are divided.
Germany is just seething at this to create their new HRE.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #378
Do you see a stage being set for a world war like never before ?

Nope...never again! In the EU there will be no other war ever again. I'm totally sure of it.

I can't give honestly a promise for the Balkans or Ukraine or other "outskirts" of Europe, but not ever between members of the EU.

Every year the countries inside the EU interconnect and mix so much more on the economical and human levels, even if the politics often don't mirror that, that war would be totally senseless, and self-destructiv for every one. It would be like kicking ones own balls...there is just no sense in that even more.

About a world war I'm not sure...who against whom?

Today almost all nations are divided.

Today in the EU most bitching and fighting happens over desks and through the media, not through weapons.

Germany is just seething at this to create their new HRE.

You are repeating yourself but I'm still waiting for your explanation....why did you choose the HRE as warning?
johnny reb 18 | 3,753
15 Sep 2018 #379
About a world war I'm not sure...who against whom?

An enemy from the East will decimate Europe to ashes.
Not to fret because the United States and Britain will be going down too.

I'm still waiting for your explanation....

I have posted the answers to all your questions already.
I suggest you go back and re-read my posts in this thread so you won't have to wait any longer.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #380
An enemy from the East will decimate Europe to ashes.

And you fret over a new HRE? ;)

Actually if you live in that fear you should do everything in your power that Poland not only stays in the EU but that Poland works hard for unifying the EU's military, to build an EU-army.

Instead of breaking each finger on it's own that "enemy from the East" would think twice to attack that huge EU fist!

But you are lobbying for a Polexit...ensuring Poland has to face the threat alone and isolated....again! Not smart!!!
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,468
15 Sep 2018 #381
Instead of breaking each finger on it's own that "enemy from the East" would think twice to attack that huge EU fist!

Oh please.... even with a larger unified eu army its the eu whos scared of Russia, not russia scared of eu...

the eu cant even stopped unarmed migrants from landing on its shores how do you think theyll fare against slavic warriors armed with modern weapons?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #382
It's an "what if" scenario! :)

If Johnny means Russia with "the enemy from the East" it's just illogically to believe Poland can handle it better alone...that never worked in the past and won't work in the future.

I personally wouldn't look to Russia as that enemy though....for me the rising rival of the future is China (also in the East). But also in this case the EU would be much stronger together than Poland or Germany or any other european country alone for itself.

That is no politics, or ideology but pure logic!

how do you think theyll fare against slavic warriors armed with modern weapons?

Because we still have nothing of that whats needed....yet...
TheOther 5 | 3,870
15 Sep 2018 #383
the eu cant even stopped unarmed migrants

The mighty USA can't even stop unarmed migrants from the south. Now what?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,468
15 Sep 2018 #384
Actually thanks to Trump they now finally can and are. And atleast unlike germany and the eu countries the US isnt coddling migrants giving them free apartments, allowances while telling women not to jog alone because a guy named jose might rape them. And americans arent 'rescuing' migrants like the eu. No as soon as a migrant is caught theyrr arrested amd processed for deportation. Unlime the eu who instead gives them homes food money etc

And us is the only country that can match russia militarily. Eu doesnt come close. And if it wasnt for us propping up nato, thered be Russian troops pwning all of the eu.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,872
15 Sep 2018 #385
Eu doesnt come close

Of course not, that's the point!

Every EU member today keeps still his own army...invests billions in it....imagine Iowa having it's own army....and Montana...and Idaho...they wouldn't stand a chance against Russia alone on their own either. But as the US they do!

It will take time to build a functional EU wide army, with all armies unified into one, and all members sharing costs and personal.

But for that you need a closer politically integration too, something many nationalists want to fight at all costs. They would rather see their countries lose alone, each for its own, than win together.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,709
15 Sep 2018 #386
No as soon as a migrant is caught they are arrested and processed for deportation.

That's another American stupidity - that arresting crap.
When we arrest that useless Latino garbage, we own them. Medical care, lawyers, and the always-anti-American ACLU suing for mental anguish of "separating" little Latino MS-13 thugs pretending to be "children".

How about just stopping them at some red line and not a step beyond. They want to eat? Guatemala is that way.
TheOther 5 | 3,870
15 Sep 2018 #387
And americans arent 'rescuing' migrants like the eu

No, we are hiring them to work for slave wages.

How about just stopping them at some red line and not a step beyond.

Let's start with Mar-a-Lago...
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,468
15 Sep 2018 #388
No, we are hiring them to work for slave wages.

If only that were true then it'd be fine because then at least like the Hispanics in the US, they'd actually be contributing to the country... the fact is though 75% to as high as 99% of migrants arriving from ME and Africa are unemployed and remain unemployed for 5 or more years, at least in Germany. Source: DW, BBC, German government minister, German labor bureau, etc

But for that you need a closer politically integration too, something many nationalists want to fight at all costs

Can't have closer political integration while you still have eurocrats punishing countries because of how they voted based on campaign promises and because they're asserting their right to determine who to let in and not let into their own lands. Once that changes, I'm all for it. Till then, you can forget about closer integration. Besides, we have NATO - we don't need a EU army. Or Poland could just develop its own nuclear weapons which I'd favor above all else.
TheOther 5 | 3,870
15 Sep 2018 #389
75% to as high as 99% of migrants arriving from ME and Africa are unemployed and remain unemployed

The reason is simple: legally, they are not allowed to work.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,468
15 Sep 2018 #390
No, it's because they're lazy, uneducated, have very few skills that are valuable in a modern society, many are simply illiterate and but what is common amongst tons of them is that they prefer to live off benefits since it's several times more than whatever they'd make in their sandboxes pretending to be countries. It's the same story in UK, Germany, Sweden - any country that accepts tons of third worlders and coddles them by giving them food, apartments, money, etc. Italy doesn't do this - and hence the Africans have to work in fields for a pittance. If Germany and the other cucked countries stopped coddling the migrants and let them go hungry for a few days their unemployment rates would dwindle in a matter of weeks if not days.

The migrants interviewed don't reveal any desires to get a job, in fact they do the opposite - they make demands of free stuff aka gibs and then complain that they were given an apartment with a communal bathroom or that they aren't given enough free money and hence can't send extra cash back home. But regardless of the reason, they don't work - so don't say things like 'we import them for slave wages' when they're clearly unemployed for a variety of reasons.


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