Poland in the European Union. Polexit?

I think there's a big difference between the European Parliament and the Polish Parliament and in particular the program followed by PIS since they were elected. The European Parliament follows a system whereby legislation comes into being. Matters are properly debated before a vote is taken. In general research is carried out on various proposals and is presented to members of the European parliament, concerns are aired and addressed, individual nations conduct their own research etc. There is a good deal of discussion and when the Parliament rejects something, it's back to the drawing board and the proposals have to be re-hashed. That's not the case in Poland. Legislation to which PIS anticipates objection, is pushed through as private members' bills as opposed to government proposals.

Also, if you look at the scale of changes in all keys areas including fixing things like the education system which clearly weren't broken, that PIS has wrought in a very short space of time - well any person of intelligence can see that there is really no comparison.

I don't know of anyone who knows anything about how the internet works who supported articles 11 or 13...

And the EU parliament is very corrupt at the personal level, have you seen this

youtube.com/watch?v=VTpkdtzncT0

There was another one some years previous where they run in the building to sign for the day on their way to the airport (I think it was on German tv). One hapless crook was humiliated standing with her face to the wall while waiting for the elevator and muttering about the impertinence of journalists monitoring her gravy train....

Now that's quite a sweeping statement. But even so, let's be sensible. Petty corruption, fiddling of expenses etc occurs in every individual member state of the EU at the domestic level, though it's far more prevalent in some than others. Therefore it stands to reason that it will occur in the European Parliament. I'm sure it happens in the USA as well.


One of the things that struck me about government when I was still a teenager is how ill-fitted for their positions many Ministers are. For example, the Minster for Foreign Affairs might be a former primary school teacher, the Minister for Health might be a former accountant. They basically rely on teams of civil servants to 'advise' them. That's how government works. We just have to get on with it.

You really do seem to have a B in your bonnet about the EU Maf. I'd still rather live in an EU member state, whatever its shortcomings, than in America. If Poland wasn't a member of the EU, just what do you think it would look like by now? Just ponder it for a minute. Really ponder it. Without the restrictions of EU membership reigning them in, and a few civilized norms being imposed on them by external forces, what kind of a dog's breakfast would the various political parties have made of the place by now?

In theory I support the EU but in the last some odd years it's been going off the rails and pretending it's not doing a lot of damage to itself won't change that. My criticism is because I support it (within well-defined limits).

Just waiting and seeing what will happen is what got us into the current situation and also won't help...

hmm .. for standards they don't care as long as they can impose their ideology and transfer out all the money they can. for what they care Poland could be ruled by the former military intelligence mafia. Secondly you are really patronizing git and with a sense they you Irish are somehow better, the same rationale had been used by the Brits to justify their 800 years rule over your little rainy Island.

I am not familiar with these articles, so I do not have an opinion really, but yesterday's Rzeczpospolita paper edition was issued with its front page all blank in support of the said articles. The paper (which is a very much balanced one despite accustions on this forum of it being a 'commie' paper) said the said articles would save decent and independent journalism by improving their financiall. This is because a lot of content is now being stolen by media corporations and social media which don't pay for it and thus damage honest and independent journalism. So the paper supported article 11 or 13

I wonder now what the stance of the major newspapers in Western Europe is in regard to this. Does anyone know?

Here's a good intro to the topic (starts at 9.00)

youtube.com/watch?v=hFROh2RCtog

Germany and Spain already have similar legislation... and it hasn't helped at all.

It all really goes back to how unmanageable it is. Many of the weird aspects of the EU come from the early compromises, and it was never meant to work with 28 states. It was struggling with 12, and 15 was really the upper limit. Jumping to 25 was a disaster and done solely for political purposes when it should have been a much slower and gradual process.

The European Parliament should be the primary source of legislation, and the European Commission should be elected by the EP through the same system that the Northern Ireland Assembly uses to elect ministers. Mandatory power sharing would ensure that all political blocs were represented (the current requirements for factions to be recognised in the EP are fine), and the European Council would exist solely for the purposes of EU treaty change with no other powers to propose or dismiss legislation.

The Nord Stream pipeline is the latest example of a final resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire by Germany.
The stage is being set.
No wonder the Brits got out while the getting was good.
Poland should follow their lead.

The EU will need massive changes if it is to survive.
They have to recognise the sovereignty and patriotism of individual states.
Europeans will continue to identify with and have pride in their own countries,customs,anthems and flags.
They will never feel that passion for a United States of Europe.

@Tacitus


I'm not blaming anyone. Just stating facts.


I'm sure that folks in Portugal, Italy or Croatia are terrified that Polish government is actually delivering what they promised before elections. Oy vey ! Democracy under threat !!!11

It's not "EU member states" and the reasons are obvious. If current gov had bought French helicopters, Airbus planes, sold LOT to Lufthansa for less than value of their fixed assets, bought TGV etc. (all the things that Tusk was promising) they would have been now called the champions of democracy, solidarity, real Europeans and so on.

The whole west (including US) commenting on democracy anywhere is a one big joke. You dudes have been doing dirty deals with the worst dictatorships in the world. The only reasons when you are "concerned" about democracy, human rights etc. is when authorities of some country start making "problems" to exploit their domestic markets, natural resources etc. by your corpos. Then suddenly your "independent media", NGOs etc. go into action starting black PR campaign, financing "democratic oppostition". The whole concept that you are some kind of judges of what's right and wrong is utterly ridiculous.

Perfect. This sentence and the whole post. The biggest joke of all is the Americans freaking over the Russian interference. Half the world in nothing but one big, fat Exhibit A for the US interference. That list is so long that the hard drive running this forum would crash if I tried to post it.

Before you all get too carried away with anyone leaving in this obviously non aligned forum to what Poles actually think wait to see what happens to the uk next year. Your tiny eu leaving right wing minority will shrink even further.

No, Poland shouldn't. Unless you think that Poles should do without work, which combined with buying overpriced American gas would be an interesting social experiment.

I guess you have never heard of work visa's.


No, this is the 21st century, Poland build a damn nuclear reactor and have cheap clean energy.


Eastern Europe tried to stop Russia and Germany from building the first NORD Stream pipeline because they knew it would give Russia more leverage against them.

This second pipeline will give Russia even more leverage.
Convincing other people to come under your political control is hard.
Convincing them to join your economic union is much easier.
Sound familiar ?
It's from 1914 when Germany wanted to create a European Union before WW1 and WW2.
Shall we go for WW3 ?

The gas crap is obsolete tech, Poland really needs to do other energy and throw the ruski gas away.

Totally agree. Just look at the Eurovision Song Contest these days!! Seriously though, letting the former Communist countries have full membership of the EU was a massive mistake. I can't believe how naive they were letting fledgling democracies join in that manner. It should have been some form of associate membership to begin with and the possiblity of backsliding should have been considered and appropriate legislation introduced to deal with it swiftly. My main complaint about the EU at present is how ineffective and weak they have been in handling the problems that started with Hungary in the first place. When you have an unruly child who's pushing boundaries right, left and centre, you don't reason with them, you put them firmly back in their place, and you do it instantly and every time they step out of line,back they go again until they learn how to behave appropriately.

Which problems would those be?

Both the 2004 expansion (too much too fast without enough institutional stability) and the introduction of the Euro (to solve problems that no longer existed) are examples of major hubris on the part of the EU.

The gross incompetence in their mishandling of the entirely predictable Euro crisis and the ongoing migration crisis are examples of institutional atrophy as most of the major players are simply trying to hang on to their power and privilege rather than find workable and lasting solutions to either problem.

Also the EU has done nothing to actually create any kind of emotional connection with EU citizens, for various reasons they cut themselves off from most real European traditions and cultures. Take the Euro, national currencies have pictures of real people or real places - the euro has a bunch of fake bridges that carry zero emotional resonance.

What's left is a bunch of slogans that no one believes and a surrender to financial interests of the largest countries ueber alles... who wants to sign on to that?

The European Union BE (Before Euro) had probably done more to eliminate poverty than any national or international institution in history.... how the might have fallen.

Google 'European Union' and it will say that it's origin was from the European Coal and Steel Industry in 1951.
True but the roots go much deeper.
The E.U.'s true origin connects the dreams of Kaisers and the ambitions of Hitler who had a vision for Europe that refuses to die.

My personal take is that the E.U. will end up being ten countries under the resurrection umbrella of Germany's Holy Roman Empire. (third try)

Only this time when the East attacks Germany's Empire (E.U.) it will be merciless.
Time for Poland to get out of Germanys E.U.

Well the coins have country specific images on one side. We still have our postage stamps, our flags etc. Mind you I much prefer the old Irish coins which had lovely images like the deer and the salmon and the ancient Celtic designs, now it's just the harp.

How long before there's an EU Postal Directive that "harmonizes" postal rates (and stamps and the size of mailboxes and envelope sizes etc)?


which makes it look like a Ryanair product tie in... (and now I want coins with deer and fish on them too!).

Aren't they beautiful:

oldcurrencyexchange.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/28setrx2.jpg

Wouldn't the Nordsteam Pipeline be much more appropriate to be on the Euro's ?
Poland made a good move not to give up their zloty.
It will make it much easier to Polexit when the free money runs out.

What exactly will be easier for Poland using the Zloty?

My favorite is the very proud rabbit.... how could you give that up?

It's actually a hare - if you don't mind me splitting 'hairs' :D

The Polish zloty would de-value drastically if Poland left the EU, it would be virtually worthless, for a time at least.

The biggest problem is the way that the EU money keeps flowing without control. As I think everyone would agree, the EU lacks effective ways of dealing with these situations, simply because it wasn't imagined in the 1950's that countries would be so openly and massively corrupt. The entire mentality of the EU is still based on the original Franco-German economic and social union concept, and simply hasn't evolved since. For all the successes (Schengen, Single European Act, Four Freedoms, etc.), the architects of the EU simply couldn't imagine what emerged in Hungary.


You jest, but actually, would it be such a bad idea for standardised postal rates, so stamps could be used interchangeably all over the EU? Look at the massive success of free roaming (to the point where I can't imagine not using Google Maps abroad) - anything that allows freedom of movement isn't a bad thing in my opinion.

I remember trying to find stamps once in Greece and failing miserably because...Greeks. If I'd been able to buy postage online from the UK, print it out and stick it onto the letter, it would have been ten times easier.

In Polands case, because of the economical connections, the Zloty would be most probably pegged to the Euro.

Well that didn't start with Orban... the Gyrucsany government was far worse than even PiS (it was about as bad as PiS-ites claim PO was).


A nice idea that should be doable in a half dozen pages of legislation.... which means the EU would take two years and come up with a 6000 page monstrosity that was more trouble to implement than it's worth and that micromanages the size of letter carriers lapels...

Yes, it would have to be. That's the only reason it has any value now. I suppose it depends on how much Poland continues to isolate itself and throw in its lot with other half-baked countries like Hungary. If you look at most of the accession countries though, they're not really that keen on the Poland/Hungary model and I'm sure the smaller ones would be very wary of getting involved in an official Union where they'd be bullied and co-erced by the two big guys.