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European News and Poland Thread 3


Paulina 17 | 4,439
20 Jun 2023 #181
Oh, I'd love that... And I'm guessing many Poles would too :))

Actually, I think it would be a good idea for KO to take up this topic during their campaign - that once KO/the opposition wins Poles will be able to decide about the most contentious issues/laws in referendums... Yeah... That would be amazing :)))

Especially after those years of PiS rule - I think many Poles have enough of decisions being made by politicians over our heads... 🤬
cms neuf 1 | 1,730
20 Jun 2023 #182
Atch I take your point about covid restrictions being supported by the majority - but for me one of the surprising things was how draconian and authoritarian these countries became in the face of dissent by a minority. I also think that despite their supposed strong democratic process, that common sense left the building sometime around Christmas 2020 and a clique of over cautious doctors and health inspectors were given way too much power.

A lot of these leaders - Ardern, sturgeon, Varadkar, the Finnish lady - all left soon after covid without having to deal with the inflation and huge debts

In that list of the 10 most democratic countries there is some clear bias towards one model - highly regulated, highly taxed small countries, militarily neutral. Often tiny populations in large flat countries with plenty of food and natural resources - so without the fights over space and resources you would get in imperfect democracies like Britain, France or Poland.

And I would take some convincing that say Canada or Australia are more democratic than the US
Atch 20 | 4,150
20 Jun 2023 #183
decide about the most contentious issues/laws in referendums... Yeah... That would be amazing :)))

It's a potentially good system but it's not that straightforward. You need the right kind of political landscape in the first place and it takes time to create that in a country where it really doesn't exist presently.

First of all in Ireland there is very low power distance, in Poland it's very high. Secondly the Irish electorate are keenly interested in social and political issues to a far greater degree than the average Polish person. Thirdly we have a long history of referendums because the constitution can't be changed without one. Fourthly, it's considered essential that people understand in depth the issue they're voting on and a lot of information, debate, deliberative assemblies and consultation with the public goes on for maybe a couple of years before a referendum is held. Even at that, there have been referendums whose results that have been a very close run thing and have caused quite a bit of turmoil and deepened hostilities or divisions between groups. In a country like Poland where people tend to be less willing to compromise or see other viewpoints that could potentially have an effect for the worse rather than the better.
Atch 20 | 4,150
20 Jun 2023 #184
Varadkar........ left soon after covid without having to deal with the inflation and huge debts

He never really left :) He was deputy prime minister and is Taoiseach again now.

how draconian and authoritarian these countries became in the face of dissent by a minority.

Yes, that was interesting. But the only reason that Poland wasn't the same, is because PIS are incompetent and didn't really know what to do so they just muddled along. On the other hand when they have an agenda, they ride roughshod over the people of Poland. They have no resect whatsoever for the electorate.
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #185
Well, as I wrote... it developed over time

To a point since there was of course a gap of over two millennia. It certainly very indirectly inspired the eighteenth century radicals. Hard to say it developed in any recognisable linear way.

sturgeon

I doubt she's ever cared much about democracy. And she's fortunately in the dustbin of history with her party likely to crash at the next election.
Paulina 17 | 4,439
20 Jun 2023 #186
Secondly the Irish electorate are keenly interested in social and political issues to a far greater degree than the average Polish person.

Atch, can you imagine what the turn out would be in Poland for a referendum concerning abortion laws?

it's considered essential that people understand in depth the issue they're voting on and a lot of information, debate, deliberative assemblies and consultation with the public

Of course, I understand (and support) that.

that could potentially have an effect for the worse rather than the better.

I don't think so. It can't be that much worse than it already is. I even think that it could actually have a bit of a healing/calming effect on the society. Whatever the decision would be made (in the referendum), it would be our decision and we could blame only ourselves. And people would have a sense of that they can decide about issues that are important for them and maybe that would teach them responsibility.

And having agency - that feels good.

It's too late, Atch - you infected me with those referendums, I am lost already ;D 😎
Luke1410 - | 167
20 Jun 2023 #187
'To a point since there was of course a gap of over two millennia.'

You genuinely hate the Church don't you, just like a true socialist.
Paulina 17 | 4,439
20 Jun 2023 #188
and it takes time to create that in a country where it really doesn't exist presently.

Everything takes time and we learn from experience, trial and error, etc... And since we survived an accelerated transformation from communism to democracy and capitalism (with no manual on how to do this), I think we can survive having a try at referendums too, imho (it seems like nothing in comparison, tbh)... 🤔
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #189
You genuinely hate the Church

Who mentioned religion? It was ancient Greeks then ancient Romans that suppressed nascent Greek democracy, long before the concept of a church existed.

Get a grip on yourself.
Luke1410 - | 167
20 Jun 2023 #190
For two exact millennia? lol, you utter twat.
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #191
exact millennia

Almost exactly since Pericles died around 2000 years before Cromwell took office.

lol, you utter twat.

Grow up.
amiga500 4 | 1,529
20 Jun 2023 #192
because it's about rejecting EU law which the country is signed up to

Just because the irish have a fetish for being low inteligent slaves, before to england and now to brussels don't expect poland to act the same
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #193
Everything man-made usually has some origins or was made or done for the first time at some point by someone

With this, I'd say that the origins were more complex and in different forms in different times and places.

One interesting proto-democracy was the Novgorod civilisation. All massacred by the ancestors of today's ruzzians. If you're not familiar with them, it's worth a read.

tripe

Trope. Autocorrect.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,684
20 Jun 2023 #194
2) The dynamic economies of Western Europe were suddenly saddled with a huge task of getting the poor East to catch up with them.

Na ja....lotsa business bosses sh*it themselves with all the new possibilities to earn money suddenly....expanding markets....growing masses of new customers spending their hearts to catch up to their western brethren...it was much more the "gold rush" time than a "huge task" all over in the West.

That's over now....
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #195
America

Our blowsy but competent daughter. Everything in their (successful) system came from British radicals.
Bobko 25 | 1,946
20 Jun 2023 #196
@jon357

Really?

You think it's up to American ingenuity, and not the fact that you put on the balance hundreds of millions of continental Europeans from the east?
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #197
@Bobko
For some reason my reply's gone to random; perhaps it wasn't European enough.

So to restate it in a more European way, all their system of government is based on the actions of British radicals, their legal system is based on the three British ones and all of this happened before your tired and hungry masses from the east.

The British and to a lesser extent the Dutch shaped that, after all, who would want the systems or the culture your 'continental Europeans from the east' were fleeing from including those from Poland?
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #198
And in more European news, Andrew Tate and his brother have been charged with rape and human trafficking. He's also had 'cryptocurrency' to the value of £250 million+ seized. The trial will be in Romania.

Didn't he spend some time in Poland too?
mafketis 37 | 10,843
20 Jun 2023 #199
Andrew Tate and his brother have been charged

aka scum of the earth....

The trial will be in Romania

b+tch was bragging about how he chose romania because it was so corrupt.... so funny

he spend some time in Poland too?

not that I've heard of,

rooshv did spend a while in Poland (saw him once in a Żabka much taller than I'd imagined) but then after his sister died he went all trad religious and big into the russian orthodox church denouncing his past
jon357 74 | 22,312
20 Jun 2023 #200
not that I've heard of,

I know he was making an exhibition of himself in Hungary at the start of the Covids because they locked down slightly later than than the places he aims his social media grift at.

aka scum of the earth....

On many levels.
OP Novichok 4 | 8,099
20 Jun 2023 #201
Being a European is a mental disorder now. Here is proof...Quoting:

Breivik killed eight people with a car bomb in Oslo in July 2011, before shooting dead 69 people at a summer youth camp.

He was jailed for a maximum 21 years but applied for parole last month.


The pos kills 77 and gets 21 years or 98 days per death. Here, we get one year for driving fast without a license.

In case you are curious about his prison cell...My Motel 6 rooms are worse.



Alien 21 | 5,177
21 Jun 2023 #202
cell...My Motel 6 rooms are worse.

But it's easier to get out of them.
OP Novichok 4 | 8,099
21 Jun 2023 #203
Nobody sane would linger beyond what's absolutely necessary.
For a moment I thought you meant that Norwegian "prison".
Atch 20 | 4,150
21 Jun 2023 #204
Not sure why Mods moved this post to Random:

Surely, it is relevant to the thread since it's about the the proposed referendum by PIS (which was being discussed in this thread) seeking to overturn Poland's EU obligation to accept a certain number of migrants. Why is that not not relevant to a thread about European news and Poland??

As for the EU, Poland signed treaties and agreements as part of joining the EU. An honourable country abides by international treaties and agreements which they voluntarily sign. If those treaties are not to the liking of subsequent governments they should try to address the issue through proper channels. You can't have governments deciding which bits and pieces of the package they want to keep. If PIS doesn't want to abide by EU laws and directives, they should open a two year national, public debate on EU membership and then hold a referendum on whether to leave. But they won't do that because they know that most Polish people want to remain in the EU so instead they behave in this dishonourable and embarrassing fashion. Poland deserves better.

and @amiga500:

We fought for our freedom. How did you get yours? Oh, yes, that's right, it was handed to you on a plate after World War One. Btw that would be 'intelligence' and England begins with a capital letter :))
OP Novichok 4 | 8,099
21 Jun 2023 #205
We fought for our freedom.

Hey, lady, I just had my breakfast so go easy on those vomit-inducing slogans.

If PIS doesn't want to abide by EU laws and directives

Good PiS. No treaty is meant to be a suicide pact. Allowing foreign hordes in is suicide in small increments aka "by a million cuts". No! Hell, NO!
amiga500 4 | 1,529
21 Jun 2023 #206
rooshv did spend a while in Poland

bald n bankrupt is worse. scum of the earth.
Luke1410 - | 167
21 Jun 2023 #207
'An honourable country abides by international treaties and agreements which they voluntarily sign'

What you are suggesting is simple cowardice and is not honourable in the slightest. The conditions under which those treaties were signed have changed, radically.
Atch 20 | 4,150
21 Jun 2023 #208
vomit-inducing slogans.

Well, we did so it's a simple statement of fact.

What you are suggesting is simple cowardice

My word is my bond - ever heard of diplomacy of the negotiating table? If circumstances have changed, you attempt to initiate change in response not by bullying or demanding or sulking like an angry child but by putting your case and seeking support in the right places.
amiga500 4 | 1,529
21 Jun 2023 #209
The conditions under which those treaties were signed have changed, radically.

But not the wording of those treaties, which Poland and all euro-realist countries will fight to the death to defend.
Luke1410 - | 167
21 Jun 2023 #210
'bullying or demanding or sulking like an angry child'

There you go again with this inflammatory rhetoric, it really is quite frightening how much you denigrate PiS.

PiS are going about their business in a very cool, calm, collected way and are simply saying, we really think this will be bad for the future of the people of Poland and we can't accept. Maybe they will be proved right, maybe they will be proved wrong, but they are going with what they genuinely believe is best for Poland. Are you seriously suggesting that PiS are bullying the EU??


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