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There is no Poland without the Church!


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
13 Jul 2015  #61
blue in the face,

It is you pontificating until you're blue in the face about one liturgical aspect of Catholicsm. But Polish Catholicism is much more -- it permeates the totality of what Polishness is all about, its history, culture, traditions, even its eating habits. As an alien, legal or otherwise, you cannot divest yourself of the Englishness that have been imprinted on your being from birth. And you will continue to view Poland through the prism of your English mindset, preferences and prejudices.
Harry
13 Jul 2015  #62
It is you pontificating until you're blue in the face about one liturgical aspect of Catholicsm.

Not at all, I'm pointing out that one particular thing alone demonstrates that the vast majority of Poles do not do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican. We could look at the remainder of the precepts and I'm sure that they would show that a lot of Poles don't do that either. For example, how many Poles do you know who observe the days of fasting established by the RCC?

But Polish Catholicism is much more

Do you mean that Polish Catholicism is being a type of what you charmingly refer to as "'cafeteria Catholics' who pick and choose from the menu only that which is pleasant, decorative and/or convenient"?

As an American yourself, you are clearly viewing Poland through your alien prism, you are wanting to see a Poland that does not exist and never has existed. The reality which you try so hard to deny is that the vast majority of Poles do not do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican and that there is most certainly a Poland without the RCC.
Y12$
13 Jul 2015  #63
Harry, I know you are talking to Polonius3, but I'd like to weigh in as well...

What you say is true from a traditional point of view. In my case, I am NOT looking at things from a traditional point of view (my earlier comments several pages ago). In my comments, I was trying to make a connection between Catholicism and the Polish culture (with emphasis on the past), and I think this connection exists.

I actually had a much harsher view of the Church than I do now. I think with Pope Francis, I tend to see the Church as a more compassionate institution ( for example, the references to "moherowe berety" -- I guess defined as, mean-spirited church ladies or that sort of mentality were quite insightful. The weird thing is I had no idea that people make such as strong association between them and the Catholic Church.)

As to the Catholic rules, you mentioned, it's true, but it's also quite a superficial point of view. Maybe it might be helpful if we look at other religions. Say, in Islam, drinking alcohol is forbidden (haram), isn't it? Yet, do you stop calling someone a Muslim if he drinks or samples alcohol? Probably not. Doesn't Turkey even have it's own local liquor (it's called raki, isn't it)? Does a Muslim woman stop being Muslim, if she doesn't wear a hijab (some Muslims see this as a requirement). Probably not. I think you have to look at Catholics or Christians, from a similar mindset. Some of them may not follow all the rules, but it does not automatically mean they stop being Catholic or Christian (OK, I know some people consciously leave the Church and have nothing to do with it... I am NOT talking about these people).

The connection between religion and culture is something that occurred to me when I travelled through south-western China, Nepal, Thailand, and India. I visited numerous Buddhist monasteries/temples/stupas (as a tourist, this is what you see there). Are you familiar with prayer flags or prayer wheels, etc.? When I saw Buddhists circulating around some temples, I actually thought of parallels with Catholics (I can't quite explain it why). When I saw various religious souvenirs being sold near Buddhist temples, I also saw parallels with Catholics. The thing is even there I never stopped feeling Catholic or Polish, for that matter. I am maybe getting too personal here (I usually don't like to share personal experiences on a public forum).
DominicB - | 2,650
13 Jul 2015  #64
And with opinions like this oozing out of conservative catholics, do you wonder why it's becoming increasingly a minority sport?

Exactly. Who wants to be associated with bigots and a$$holes? Conservative Catholics have done and excellent job of skunking their own brand, and the stink ain't gonna wear off any time soon.
Polsyr 6 | 769
13 Jul 2015  #65
@Polonius3; Slippery slope fallacy. Check in random because I don't want to take this off topic.
Dougpol1 28 | 2,670
13 Jul 2015  #66
Struktura wynagrodzeń (netto)
-ródło: opracowanie Bankier.pl na podstawie danych GUS

Laughable. I am the poorest man on my street, and according to that "table" I am in the top half million wage earners :) ROFL

QED: Everybody cheats.
jon357 63 | 14,149
13 Jul 2015  #67
Laughable. I am the poorest man on my street, and according to that "table" I am in the top half million wage earners :) ROFL

Likewise. I'm also probably one of the poorest in the street except for domestic staff and also one of the poorest in the neighbourhood and according to that misleading tosh I'm well in the top 0.2%! I certainly don't feel it. Even when I was teaching English in Warsaw I fell into the top half million and very definitely didn't feel it. Those figures are distorted by people with multiple incomes, the asset rich/cash poor and undeclared/overseas incomes. I will say though that the local parish church isn't particularly busy and that also goes for the church in the notoriously rough housing estate down the road - that isn't busy either.

Slippery slope fallacy.

This is a recurrent theme in some of these threads. A kind of irrational fear that things are always going to get worse rather than better. People often do turn to religion and/or reflect on faith and the transcendent in times of difficulty. Poland has had a century of that and, together with the JPII effect and political currents that opposed all religions created something rather unhealthy. This is now passing to the despair of the ultra-reactionaries.
Harry
13 Jul 2015  #68
Well, I suppose that when it comes to failing to reveal one's income for taxation purposes the average Pole is exactly the same as the RCC.
Crow 136 | 7,388
13 Jul 2015  #69
But Polish Catholicism is much more -- it permeates the totality of what Polishness is all about, its history, culture, traditions, even its eating habits.

brate Poloniuse3, essentially i know what you want to underline as a problem and i agree with you but let me tell you that you now sound as somebody who suggests that are religious feelings part of the genome. it rises new questions to me- what more affect human genome, Judaism or Catholicism. Islam also have that philosophy.

Harry prijatelju, am i crazy and see things in the double or you really said same thing twice in the same post? why that Harry? you that much wanted to be convincing? are you now that desperate?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
13 Jul 2015  #70
do not do the very minimum required of Catholics

But they do: 70% make their once a year confession and communion. How is it that you have conveniently overlooked that fact and latched onto one enabling you to badmouth Polish Catholics. Praga Czeska czeka!
Polsyr 6 | 769
13 Jul 2015  #71
once a year confession and communion

Is that enough as far as the RCC is concerned?
Harry
13 Jul 2015  #72
But they do: 70% make their once a year confession and communion.

How many times do we need to go over this? Just satisfying one of the precepts of the RCC does not mean a person is doing the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican. A person has to satisfy all six of the precepts of the RCC in order to do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican. Catholics can't just pick and choose from the menu only that which is pleasant, decorative and/or convenient.

The vast majority of Poles do not satisfy all six of the precepts of the RCC, as can be very clearly demonstrated by the statistics published by the RCC in Poland.

The fact that the vast majority of Poles chose not to do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican shows that there most certainly is a Poland without the RCC and it is the Poland that the vast majority of Poles chose to live in.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
13 Jul 2015  #73
Just satisfying one of the precepts of the RCC

But why did you choose and beat to death only that precept which shows only 40% regularly attend mass, not the one followed by 70%? Bias? Lying through omission? Trying to badmouth Polish Catholics? Zlata Praha awaits!
Harry
13 Jul 2015  #74
But why did you choose and beat to death only that precept which shows only 40% regularly attend mass, not the one followed by 70%?

It wouldn't matter if 100% of Poles satisfied one of the precepts; in order to do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican a person has to satisfy all of the precepts. The fact that so few Poles chose to do the very minimum shows that they prefer not to live as Catholics, that they like to live in a Poland which is not Catholic.

Let me try to explain this another way: in order to qualify for a Polish passport (other than by descent) a person has to satisfy a number of conditions, one of which is to speak Polish. But a person who learns Polish can't just turn up at a Polish embassy and demand a Polish passport on the sole basis that they can speak Polish.

Trying to badmouth Polish Catholics?

As I have said many times, the vast majority of Polish Catholics are very nice people; the problem is that the people who shout loudest about being patriotic Polish Catholics are very often simply not good Christians (and usually not good patriots, if they are even Polish).
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
13 Jul 2015  #75
It wouldn't matter if 100% of Poles

Evading questions is part and parcle of your MO, so I'll repeat it very slowly and in plain Enlgish: why did you latch onto just that one precept which had the lowest participation?

BTW, what have you got against the poor Czechs?
jon357 63 | 14,149
14 Jul 2015  #76
As I have said many times, the vast majority of Polish Catholics are very nice people; the problem is that the people who shout loudest about being patriotic Polish Catholics are very often simply not good Christians.

Bingo. It's the ones who shout loudest that are the worst examples to others.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
14 Jul 2015  #77
@Dougpol: Witam! As to your "many young people", do consider all those who have voted for Kukiz and those who regularly vote for Korwin-Mikke and consorts = quite a bunch! ;).

Contrary to what you seem to claim 'Polish youth is not a "homogeneous block".

the "problem" is not catholicism, or any other religion, the problem is extremism. People may believe anything they want as long as they don't impose their views to others and tell them how to breathe, how to get dressed, what to think, what to eat, what to read, how to f..........
pweeg
14 Jul 2015  #78
So you haven't been in Warsaw much lately?

And you haven't been outside of Warsaw much? It's acedotal. But the churches in Krakow and various parts of the country are generally packed.
jon357 63 | 14,149
14 Jul 2015  #79
And you haven't been outside of Warsaw much?

Lots, and 'packed' still doesn't mean that the majority, or anything like a majority, attend or are even interested.
Polsyr 6 | 769
14 Jul 2015  #80
shout loudest

All bark but no bite.

Why can't we enjoy positive and constructive values (such as being honest, hard working and helpful) and move forward? Does it need to be organized by "priests"? Granted, many people feel better if they hear the answers they want to hear from an "authoritative" figure, but some simply don't feel that same urge. Do we have to measure everyone using the same ruler? If that isn't totalitarianism then I don't know what is.

By the definition presented by Polonius3, I more than meet my "Catholic Duties". Actually this year I have "performed my Catholic duties" twice, due to being a witness in two weddings. Yet I never identify myself as "Catholic" when asked and prefer to say "agnostic" or even sometimes "atheist" or "pagan". I HATE being asked this question. My relationship with my creator is nobody's business, and that little bit of privacy is in fact guaranteed by Polish law.

Back to the topic, Poland is so much more than just the Church. I agree that the Church today is an integral part of Polish traditions and way of life for many Poles, but like everything else in life, things change. I am not against going to Church if it makes you happy or helps you sleep at night. Some people even need the sense of belonging they get from Church attendance. But not everyone.
pweeg
14 Jul 2015  #81
The fact that so few Poles chose to do the very minimum shows that they prefer not to live as Catholics, that they like to live in a Poland which is not Catholic.

Fruit flies likes bananas?

That's a pretty far fetched conclusion. Maybe a lot of people are to lazy or busy to keep up their church attendance.
jon357 63 | 14,149
14 Jul 2015  #82
hat little bit of privacy is in fact guaranteed by Polish law.

Yes. It's when people try to politicise it - not because of the core values but because of the peripherals - that problems start.

Maybe a lot of people are to lazy or busy to keep up their church attendance.

So not living as catholics...
delphiandomine 84 | 17,591
14 Jul 2015  #83
Back to the topic, Poland is so much more than just the Church.

The problem is that the Church itself seems to be hell bent on destroying itself. Some of their actions are just crazy - for instance, a building was returned to them by the court. In the building was a school that had been there for many years - and immediately, the Curia demanded a huge amount of money in rent. It was just pure greed - and utter bad will on their part. With these sort of actions, they have no hope in the future.
Dougpol1 28 | 2,670
14 Jul 2015  #84
As to your "many young people", do consider all those who have voted for Kukiz and those who regularly vote for Korwin-Mikke and consorts = quite a bunch! ;).

Hello InPolska

We can only hope that their peers will have a word and those nippers will see the light and remember that a vote for anybody but PO is a vote against the rights of young people.
Harry
14 Jul 2015  #85
why did you latch onto just that one precept which had the lowest participation?

Who says I did? I certainly don't think that I did. I picked the one which has the best hard data (in fact the only one for which there is hard data). I would be amazed if the number of Poles who fast on the days required by the RCC is higher than the number who go to church every Sunday and holy day. I know people who go to church every Sunday; I don't know anybody who fast on the days required by the RCC. That is just another way that Poles demonstrate that there most certainly is a Poland without the RCC. You say that you go to church every Sunday, do you also fast on the days required by the RCC? I know that you aren't Polish, but let's not get into that now.

And even if I had picked the precept which is satisfied by the fewest Poles, which I didn't, that would be the precept which gives the maximum number of Poles who do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican. Catholics have to satisfy all of the precepts, they can't just pick and choose from the menu only that which is pleasant, decorative and/or convenient. The fact that the vast majority of Poles chose to not do the very minimum shows Poland's rejection of the demands of the RCC.

The problem is that the Church itself seems to be hell bent on destroying itself.

No, the RCC isn't hell bent on destroying itself. The problem is that some parts of the church haven't realised that the world has changed. 30 years ago something like the scandal with the RCC trying to get a vast amount of money from that school would have been heard by very few people and would have been rapidly forgotten about. Like all organisations, the RCC has some excellent staff and some utter morons: it's the morons that draw the attention while the vast majority of very decent staff get hardly any attention.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
14 Jul 2015  #86
Poles chose to not do the very minimum

You have indicated you know and respect many Catholics who are decent people but, according to your definiton of fulfilling the bare minimum, are they really Catholics or just hypocrites? Have you ever asked them about this? You're constantly obsessing and spouting off about it on PF.
Harry
14 Jul 2015  #87
I'm 100% Polish as a matter of fact

Polish people have Polish citizenship. Even the Polish people who have completely and utterly rejected the church that the Dear Leader claims without which there would be no Poland have Polish citizenship. People who refuse to have a Polish passport because they don't want to give up the citizenship which they currently hold (and prefer to Polish citizenship) are very simply not Polish, regardless of how closely they integrate the RCC with their lives and how loudly they claim to be Polish.

your definiton of fulfilling the bare minimum

Not my definition, it's the Vatican's.

fortunately do not have a single drop of toxic, contaminated Anglo-Saxon blood in me! If I did, I'd probably go get a transfusion

Statements such as that one as made by a person who claims to be Polish and Catholic are among the main reasons that more and more people who actually are Polish are turning their backs on the RCC and further proving that there most certainly is a Poland without the RCC, and it's the Poland that the vast majority of Poles chose to live in.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
14 Jul 2015  #88
Polish people have Polish citizenship

A scrap of paper does not change one's DNA nor the heritage one feels in one's heart and soul.
Polsyr 6 | 769
14 Jul 2015  #89
@Polonius3;

But a scrap of paper makes some people more Polish than those without a scrap of paper :)
InPolska 11 | 1,821
15 Jul 2015  #90
We don't need do be catholic to live in Poland. Poland is not a theocracy.


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