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There is no Poland without the Church!


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #31
public opinion largely mirrors your own

No such allusions intended, but do you believe PF posters reflect a representative cross-section of Polish public opinion? (That's what the post was about, after all.)
Dougpol1 27 | 2,573    
13 Jul 2015  #32
do you believe PF posters reflect a representative cross-section of Polish public opinion?

Yes I do. Many young Poles don't believe in the value of church nowadays. Many young people are LBGT positive, many Poles don't think of different peoples as endangering their way of life - and want to pay-back for the many years of Polish migration...

...and so on - all views expressed by some on this board.
InPolska 11 | 1,821    
13 Jul 2015  #33
@Dougpol; unfortunately the people you are referring to are tiny minorities in Poland. When going to not only Poland B but also outside of Poland A cities, most (including younger) Poles are unfortunately like Polonius says they are....
jon357 64 | 14,382    
13 Jul 2015  #34
Many young Poles don't believe in the value of church nowadays.

Exactly and the behaviour of the clergy and certain politicians had in very large part facilitated this...

Polish chruches are definitely fuller on Sundays.

But certainly not jam packed with crowds standing in the rain, as the poster idly and misleadingly suggested..

You will find that PF despite the name is populated largely by expats and non-Poles

Well, Pol3, there are plenty of Polish language fora waiting with baited breath for an extreme right-wing American misanthrope to come along and tell the majority that they should start attending churches again.

do you believe PF posters reflect a representative cross-section of Polish public opinion?

Is it meant to be? Is any forum?

not only Poland B but also outside of Poland A cities, most (including younger) Poles are unfortunately

chewing straw ;-)
InPolska 11 | 1,821    
13 Jul 2015  #35
@Jon: I don't know what they chew.... but when I happen to be in such areas, I feel like on another planet ;).

On Friday I was in Kce and had to go to Saint-Steven (in English) parish. I have counted 8 masses on Sundays (+ a few each of the other days). In one of how many churches in Katowice, they need 8 masses every Sunday. I believe it's the same everywhere in Poland.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
13 Jul 2015  #36
I wonder how many are well attended.
Harry    
13 Jul 2015  #37
It is making a confession and receiving the Eucharist at least once a year that is the minumum required of every Catholic wishing to remain in good stead with the Church.

How unsurprising that the person who shouts most here about how wonderful it is that Poles are Catholics doesn't know what is required from Catholics. Allow me to make it crystal clear for you and to do so straight from the Vatican's own laws:

II. THE PRECEPTS OF THE CHURCH
2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

2042 The first precept ("You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor") requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord [cropped]

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a3.htm

I say that it is unsurprising because one often finds that those who shout the loudest about how wonderful the church in Poland is don't have a clue about what the RCC actually does or requires. They also often dedicate themselves to the politics of hate. They seem to have very little understanding of who Jesus was or what he said.

One of such people is most certainly the Dear Leader. I very much hope that he continues to cram his feet into his mouth at every possible opportunity.
Polsyr 6 | 771    
13 Jul 2015  #38
I presume that's also you view of your own mother and grandmother. A shining example of the kind of of filial love and respect demonstrated by the wayward and unchurched

Unfortunately it is my own generation (born and raised under communism) that lives in this bipolarity. My mother and grandmother (both RIP) received liberal French education and escaped from this disease.
bullfrog 6 | 603    
13 Jul 2015  #39
During mass, some of the sermons also took a more political bend (I could only tell after my parents talked about it).

Yes. The church where I married in Warsaw in 1986 was St Stanislas Kotka in Zoliborz and it was there that late father Popieluszko preached. Although baptised, I am an agnostic, and i must say that i was deeply moved by what i saw when my wife took me to one of the monthly "masses for the Fatherland", which were ongoing despite Popieluszko's assassination 2 years earlier.

The church was of course full, so was the small park around it, and seeing all those people starting to sing patriotic songs at the end of the "normal" mass despite being filmed by the secret police was extraordinary.. That's when I started to delve in more details to understand the role of the RCC in Poland, and I agree with Polonius, without it, Poland would probably not exist, or at least not in today's shape. Contrary to many western countries where the Church was on the side of power, RCC helped sustain the very notion of "polishness" by running underground schools etc when the country no longer existed or when its was under foreign control, including during communist times. I am still an agnostic (verging on the atheist, sorry Polonius!), but I do respect the Polish Church for their role in preserving Polish culture. At the same time, many young Poles, while respecting this past and the role of the RCC, lead their own personal life without necessarily following to the letter all the "teachings" of the Church and I , for one, find this quite healthy..
Polsyr 6 | 771    
13 Jul 2015  #40
@bullfrog; so you are baptized, married in church, and currently agnostic? me too, me too, and me too. Nice to hear your story and opinion.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #41
Many young Poles

Polish society is not limtied to "many young Poles". BTW PF is hardly a youth forum. I restate the original question: Is PF reprensentative of a cross-section of overall Polish public opinion?

That would mean a majority favouring PiS and 70% making their Easter duty. And do you believe the average PF-er's earnings are similar to those of the average Pole?

In case your'e curious, this is what Poels actually earn:

Struktura wynagrodzeń (netto) Liczba pracujących (skumulowane) Odsetek pracujących (skumulowane)
Poniżej 1181 zł ok. 800 tys. osób 10%
Poniżej 1423 zł ok. 1,44 mln 18%
Poniżej 2776 zł ok. 5,2 mln osób 66%
Poniżej 3549 zł ok. 6,4 mln osób 80,5%
Ponad 3549 zł netto miesięcznie zarabia tylko 19,5% pracujących
Ponad 7000 zł ok. 270 tys. osób 3,47%
Ponad 14000 zł ok. 48 tys. osób 0,06%
Ponad 19000 zł ok. 16 tys. osób 0,02%
-ródło: opracowanie Bankier.pl na podstawie danych GUS
jon357 64 | 14,382    
13 Jul 2015  #42
so you are baptized, married in church, and currently agnostic? me too, me too, and me too. Nice to hear your story and opinion.

This is pretty much the urban Polish story, and increasingly so out in the sticks.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,675    
13 Jul 2015  #43
obviously PF is not representative of 'the average Pole' as its language is English....
therefore most of us are, would be PolAms, some who have moved to Poland, and some who have Polish parents or spouses.
Stating the bleedin obvious.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #44
much the urban Polish story

Meaning we can all look forward to more unwed mothers, bastard births, broken homes, confused fatherless kids, desertions and other hallmarks of egoistic "progress". Your long awaited degenerate, anarchised society is slowly taking shape. And you will soon have more marchers for your freak parade!
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,675    
13 Jul 2015  #45
maybe it would be better to raise our children with wife and child beating, alcoholism, and children's money being spent on booze?
The good old traditional way eh Polonius?
jon357 64 | 14,382    
13 Jul 2015  #46
we can all look forward to more unwed mothers, bastard births, broken homes, confused fatherless kids, desertions

You seem to see it as an either/or situation. Not that there's anything at all wrong with a one-parent family; Poland has plenty, whether religious or not...

maybe it would be better to raise our children with wife and child beating, alcoholism, and children's money being spent on booze?

The good old days, all that evil progress stopping morally upright husbands from physically chastising their wifies who are barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen...
Atch 17 | 2,699    
13 Jul 2015  #47
Not that there's anything at all wrong with a one-parent family

Agreed up to a point. Far better a happy, safe one parent family than a dysfunctional two parent family. I was raised in a one parent family and am eternally grateful that my mother gave my father his marching orders as I was terrified of him. However there is no doubt in my mind that a two parent family is the ideal. Life certainly was much harder for my mother in many respects than it would have been if she'd had a supportive, loving partner as she deserved.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #48
wife and child beating, alcoholism,

Do you really see everything in black or whtie, either or. An integral, complete, married family has to involve battery and booze, and unwed mothers with a string of passing-through boyfriends provide the ideal conditions for child rearing?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,675    
13 Jul 2015  #49
that's rightAtch, it is not ideal but is likely to be a safer environment in many cases.
\I really do resent Polonius's take on 'single mummies' as he often suggests that they are basically w.hores.
WTF?
Harry    
13 Jul 2015  #50
The good old days, all that evil progress stopping morally upright husbands from physically chastising their wifies who are barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen...

Well, the bible does say that wives must submit to their husbands as to the Lord.

One thing I am wondering, if there is no Poland without the RCC, why doesn't Poland follow RCC law? Under RCC law it is legal for men to marry children but under Polish law it is no. Does anybody happen to know if PIS plan to change that aspect of Polish law so that it follows RCC law?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,675    
13 Jul 2015  #51
I know it is a bit stupid to see things in black and white Polonius but frankly I am sick of your comments about 'unwed' mothers with 'strings of boyfriends' -
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #52
So you are saying the annual confession and communion is no longer the bare minimum required to stay in good stead with the Chruch?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,675    
13 Jul 2015  #53
unwed mothers, bastard births, broken homes, confused fatherless kids, desertions

it is all about the mothers for you isn't it? Is that how it was with you and your mother?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #54
men to marry children

Another concoction of PF's wannabe self-styled theologian?
Harry    
13 Jul 2015  #55
So you are saying the annual confession and communion is no longer the bare minimum required to stay in good stead with the Chruch?

Why not read the helpful link which I provided? If you do, you will see that there are actually six precepts which the Vatican says are the bare minimum required to stay in good stead with the RCC (mass every Sunday and holy day, confession at least once a year and communion at least during easter are all covered).

The vast majority of Poles very simply do not bother performing that very minimum, which shows that the reality in Poland is very different to the fantasy spouted by the Dear Leader.

Another concoction of PF's wannabe self-styled theologian?

Nope, Canon law actually. The RCC is just fine with 15-year old girls marrying men.

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

http:/ /www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P3Y.HTM
Atch 17 | 2,699    
13 Jul 2015  #56
unwed mothers with a string of passing-through boyfriends

Not all single parents are unwed. My mother was married to my father for nine years before they separated. Of course as we were Catholics and there was no divorce in Ireland at that time, she remained married to him both in the eyes of the Church and the State.

Back on track people
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
13 Jul 2015  #57
confession at least once a year and communion

But 70% do make their annual confession and communion. Why did you focus on the lower statistic pertaining to weekly mass attendance?
We all know why -- because then you could not say most do or do not do whatever complied with the tendentiously propagandistic point you were trying to make. But whether you like it or not, your host country is CATHOLIC POLAND, not Islamic Turkey, the atheist Czech Republic or Orthodox Greece. It is a bad and obnoxious guest who comes to dinner and belittles or ridicules his hosts, innit? BTW, Prague is a beautiful city. You'd surely feel more at home there amongst the godless beer-guzzlers!
Harry    
13 Jul 2015  #58
But 70% do make their annual confession and communion.

Good for them, but they still are not doing the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican.

Why did you focus on the lower statistic pertainoing to weekly mass attendance?

The fact that the vast majority of Poles do not do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican is demonstrated by the number of Poles who attend mass on Sundays and holy days. If there were to be no Poland without the RCC, the majority of Poles would do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican. But the reality is that they do not.

But whether you like it or not, your host country is CATHOILIC POLAND

I do not have a host country. Unlike you I am not a guest in Poland: I have the legal right to be here. And I am not belittling Poles or Poland; I am telling the truth about Poles and Poland. You are the one belittling your hosts, claiming that they are what they clearly are not. You can claim that Poland is "CATHOILIC" until you are blue in the face, that will not change the facts that the vast majority of Poles do not do the very minimum required of Catholics by the Vatican and that there is most certainly a Poland without the RCC.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
13 Jul 2015  #59
if there is no Poland without the RCC

Poland as a culture certainly predates the RCC - when Christianity was introduced in the 10th Century it was pre-schism and therefore not RCC. Even before Christianity (which came late to Poland, around 700 years later than it did to Britain), Poland existed. Probably none the worse for having whatever religion predominated.

propagandisti

your freak parade!

And with opinions like this oozing out of conservative catholics, do you wonder why it's becoming increasingly a minority sport?
Crow 143 | 7,407    
13 Jul 2015  #60
How i see things, Poland is in paradoxal situation. Things that are good for Anglos, Germanics and French, within EU, aren`t necessarily good for Poles. Slovaks, Czechs also have that problem


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