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There is no Poland without the Church!


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
16 Jul 2015  #91
scrap of paper makes some people more Polish

Please explain how!
Jadowniki 1 | 24
16 Jul 2015  #92
History has shown that Poland is the strongest when it's people were more conected with God. Personally I believe that the church as an institution is corrupt,

but when the Poles were being killed by invaders, when our churches were being burned by the armies of other faiths we flocked to our faith. The church in poland took a different shape than the churches of other nations because we were persecuted many times for our faith, by the protestant swedes, the Muslim tatars, the orthodox czars and later, the aiethist communists.

Whenever poland went through times of prosperity we became corrupt, our szlachta fought amongst ourselves and the church became a political tool. Whenever poland was conquered and destroyed, we flocked to our faith in God and became stronger as a nation. Thus, Poland does not need the Vatican or the often corrupt catholic church, poland needs it's people to turn to God in a genuine way. Some of the greatest poles, such as the late pope Karol wotyła Jerzy popiełuszko and so forth had a personal and sincere relationship with christ and suffered for it.

The reason why young poles are leaving the faith is because while the church has great influence over the state, it is loosing it's connection with society and with the people. In order for the faith to revive in poland the corrupt priests and clergy mus be removed and the faith must connect with the average person. It is only by Christ that poland is strong, and if we let that go, then we will become morally rotten and we will loose what makes poland, poland.
jon357 63 | 14,149
16 Jul 2015  #93
History has shown that Poland is the strongest when it's people were more conected with God.

I'd say it's more that when Poland was at it's weakest, for example during the fascist occupation during WWII, religion provided a rallying point.

our szlachta fought amongst ourselves and the church became a political tool

Much as it is now.

If the RCC was better behaved, if they towed down the absolutism and the nationalism, focussed the politic side on social justice rather than some of the pronouncements of recent years, dealt with the Torun Redemptorists etc they might not be haemorrhaging adherents so fast.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
16 Jul 2015  #94
religion provided a rallying point

You know the story of the golden calf. Or the Polish saying: Jak trwoga to do Boga. Jak bida to do Żyda (for credit). That never changes. That's why the rich, fat, flabby and luxophilic are usually moral zeroes.
jon357 63 | 14,149
16 Jul 2015  #95
That makes no sense, Pol3. We've proves conclusively in this thread that JK was talking out of his arse as usual, that Poland gets on very well indeed without religious interference and that in any case, religious observance is declining.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
16 Jul 2015  #96
That makes no sense

Oh but it does. People who are rich, fat, flabby,self-satisfied and conceited feel they are their own gods. Religion gives solace to those in need, the downtrodden, sick and abandoned. And on balance they are probaly more worthwhile humans than the arrogant, fat swine wallowing in luxury and looking down on their fellow-man.
jon357 63 | 14,149
16 Jul 2015  #97
People who are rich, fat, flabby,self-satisfied and conceited feel they are their own gods.

All of those descriptions actually fit yourself, off forum. Remember we have met and were neighbours...

Religion gives solace to those in need, the downtrodden, sick and abandoned.

Or provides a pulpit (literally) for people to expound their views and frankly behave very badly. This is why it's declining so fast - in Poland they simply went too far...
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
16 Jul 2015  #98
fit yourself

Care to elaborate?
Vox - | 175
16 Jul 2015  #99
It stand to logic that if the statement of the political leader wouldn't have been acceptable to the majority of Poles he wouldn't said that.

Meaning that most opinions expressed here by different posters are just their personal views and do not reflect reality in Poland.
jon357 63 | 14,149
16 Jul 2015  #100
It stand to logic that if the statement of the political leader wouldn't have been acceptable to the majority of Poles he wouldn't said that.

No it doesn't. He was speaking to a very specific and untypical audience. He's an opposition politician - he plays to the crowds.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
16 Jul 2015  #101
specific and untypical audience

Every audience is specific and untypical to some extent -- you haven't discovered America. At a SLD Mayday event the place s crawlign with ex-commies, at a rock concert immatutre and unruly "pimple people" (teenagers) dominate. So is it all that surprising that at Jasna Góra you don't see too many pole dancers or porn stars but people who take their faith seriously. You do like truisms which seem to shock and bewilder you.
jon357 63 | 14,149
16 Jul 2015  #102
Every audience is specific and untypical to some exten

That's no answer. As well you know, he is a cynical politician addressing a largely elderly and sentimental audience.

And meanwhile, religious adherence plummets. Poland existed before the Christian era and will exist after it.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
16 Jul 2015  #103
Polish people have Polish citizenship.

You could have 10 passports, seven visas and 30 others scraps of paper but none of that would improve your halting Polish. Besides knowing the language thoroughly, one has to feel the country, its heartbeat and heritage and a considerable part thereof is Catholicism. As I've said: Zlata Praha awaits -- a city of godless beer guzzlers galore!!

on-topic

Take it off-line if you like. All that regimentation, rules, regulations, fine print and other bureaucratic bollocks make absolutely no differnece to me. I'm no horse-blinkered paper worshipper. The main thing is to communicate -- the channels, structures, procedures, bla_bla-bla are in 47th or maybe 99th place as far as I'm concerned..
Atch 17 | 2,732
17 Jul 2015  #104
I'm no horse-blinkered paper worshipper.

Heresy - all true Poles love paperwork.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
17 Jul 2015  #105
Poles love paperwork

I've never met a Pole who does. They have had it forced down their throats by the partitioning powers, Hitler, Stalin, PRL and most recently the Tuskites. He pledged less redtape, businessmen could handle everything at a single "window", but we all know what PO promises are like. We now have more bureacracy than ever.
Polsyr 6 | 769
17 Jul 2015  #106
We now have more bureacracy than ever.

That is not true. Official processes have improved big time in Poland, in particular from 2010 to 2015. During this time I established a business, bought a home, deal with 2 court cases plus immigration and citizenship issues and I can say from my own experience that today there is less red tape than ever before, however that is not to say that it is better than Denmark for example (not even close), and much more improvement is needed.
Dougpol1 28 | 2,670
17 Jul 2015  #107
never met a Pole who does.

Now now Polonius - behave. The amount of bureaucracy in Poland has nothing to do with communism. That dies 27 years ago. The Polish authorities absolutely love their power of unnecessary auditing and aren't going to give it up.

It's alright for you to deny the fact that paperwork here is an absolute scandal, living there in the US of A.

Sorry - that was aimed at Polsyr....

You can still have your car impounded if you're not carrying the car docs with you for instance - whereas in fact - and I have tested this - on a simple call to the kommisariat by the traffic cops, within seconds they have your address, your driving record, your job, your status, proof of your name and all details that go with it, criminal record, political leanings, your addresses over the last 20 years, financial details, tax details and the like, obviously your on-line behaviour, and personal **** ( they delighted in spilling some of the beans to my daughter, who was with me..so if you wish to avoid such a scenario that might be just one reason to carry your docs :((

In other words - there is no purpose to be served in carrying your docs - but your governments' power trip. And general paperwork as Polonius says is NOT decreasing anything like fast enough.

As the American guest famously said to Basil Fawlty in the legendary "Fawlty Towers", and I misquote "If you don't get a Waldorf Salad right now, I'm going to bust your ass".

I agree with the American guest. Some asses are long overdue for busting here - and they are big fat Polish ones.
delphiandomine 84 | 17,591
18 Jul 2015  #108
He pledged less redtape, businessmen could handle everything at a single "window", but we all know what PO promises are like. We now have more bureacracy than ever.

Opened a business recently, have we?

The "one window" is alive and working very well indeed. These days, you can even do everything online - all you have to do is turn up at the office, give them a code, sign one document and voila - your business is open and ready.

You can still have your car impounded if you're not carrying the car docs with you for instance

No, you can't. If they make such a threat - take their badge number and report them. They can only fine you 50zl per missing document - and all they can do is make you park the car until the documents are produced. They certainly can't impound the car for merely not having documents.

In other words - there is no purpose to be served in carrying your docs - but your governments' power trip.

There is one purpose - because of the system of insurance, anyone can drive a car provided they have a licence, the registration document and the insurance document. It would be a nightmare if anyone could drive a car and could claim that they've got permission but the documents are at home. It is weird for us, but I've never really been bothered by it - everything fits into my wallet nicely anyway.

And general paperwork as Polonius says is NOT decreasing anything like fast enough.

It's coming bit by bit.

Having said that, we all know that PiS would immediately employ endless civil servants to make sure that everyone feels guilty. That tax office where you previously had a decent relationship? Well, Paweł, son of the local PiS leader now has the job - and he knows that you're guilty.
Polsyr 6 | 769
18 Jul 2015  #109
They can only fine you 50zl per missing document

This matches what I know, although I am curious based on what Dougpol1 said that you could have your car impounded. Never even heard of that before.

Paweł, son of the local PiS

I see this particular problem even today. And now just employment, but also for award of contracts etc...
Dougpol1 28 | 2,670
18 Jul 2015  #110
Thanks Delph! A mine of information as usual. I was threatened twice by the Krakow cops like that when I went to visit daughter at uni, and they sounded very believable. Lying little scum. Krakow cops see a Katowice number plate and say "Let's have some fun." Words can't describe, but then...... I can think of two.
Polsyr 6 | 769
18 Jul 2015  #111
Krakow cops see a Katowice number plate

I heard horror stories on this subject, especially if you have Warsaw plates and you are out of province. Although I personally haven't experienced anything with my Warsaw plates and I more or less drove all over Poland except to the NE corner, and that will happen soon when I visit Suwałki.

So check this out. It turns out there are concerned drivers and corrupt Police and the Church has nothing to do with the concerned drivers :)
delphiandomine 84 | 17,591
18 Jul 2015  #112
What you can do is simply conduct all discussions in front of their car. It'll be recorded on video and on microphone, so if you make a complaint - it's ball-chopping time. The police are quite terrified in Poland of being accused of corruption, and the anti-corruption chaps are always quite keen to get involved in these kinds of situations.

For what it's worth, I've never had any issues with my PO plates and police - it even worked to my advantage when pleading stupidity in the Czech Republic as to why I didn't understand them :D
Polsyr 6 | 769
18 Jul 2015  #113
pleading stupidity

Ah best one ever :)

Remember the topic is There is no Poland without the Church
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
18 Jul 2015  #114
Polish authorities absolutely love

I thought we were speaking about Poles, not Polish bureaucrats. All authorities, officials and clerks including Eurocrats love application forms,vouchers, invoices, receipts, inserts, appendices, indexes, paragraphs, subpoints, provisions, stipulations, bla-bla-bla... But few rank and filers do.

no Poland without the Church

One Polish parish came up with a great idea to shake people out of their spiritual lethargy. They draped a banner across the church's façade showing men carrying a coffin to church. The inscription read: SUNDAY. GO TO CHURCH. DON'T WAIT TILL THEY CARRY YOU THERE!"

Some said it would turn people away, but others said something controversial was needed to get people's attention. The mastermind Father Krawczyk said it has served its purpose because some are for and some against but at least it's got people discussing.

fronda.pl/a/dzis-niedziela-idz-do-kosciola-nie-czekaj-az-cie-tam-zaniosa,51198.html

Merged: 40,00 at Poland National Stadium for Catholic retreat

40,000 faithful turned up at a retreat conducted at National Stadium by Father Bashobory from Uganda. Long queues formed to have their confession heard. It was heartening to see the number of young worshipers in attendance. In most other EU countries you'd need a sporting event or rock concert to draw a crowd that size, yet another sign that this truly is CATHOLIC POLAND!

rp.pl/artykul/20,1216590-Tlumy-wiernych-na-rekolekcjach-Bashobory.html
InPolska 11 | 1,821
19 Jul 2015  #115
@Polonius: "funny" because I took public transportation today in Warsaw and everything as usual. 40,000? Are you sure there were not 400 (or 40)?

PS: nothing in the news! Can you give a link please?
Harry
19 Jul 2015  #116
Only 40,000? Just two years ago he sold nearly 60,000 tickets.
warszawa.wyborcza.pl/warszawa/1,106541,14228440,Uzdrawianie_na_stadionie__Dziwna__podniosla_uroczystosc.html

I wonder how many of those 40,000 satisfy all of the precepts of the RCC and how many are only cafeteria 'Catholics'.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
19 Jul 2015  #117
how many are only

And how many of them are only blowhard hypocrites like yourself? Run your portable DNA checker over them and see if they are all true Poles or maybe some are only or wannabees contaminated by pommy genes.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
19 Jul 2015  #118
If in the paper, probably not on the first page ;). Even if 40,000 (which I doubt), out of 38/39 million Poles, it means very little.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
19 Jul 2015  #119
give a link

Here it is again:
rp.pl/artykul/20,1216590-Tlumy-wiernych-na-rekolekcjach-Bashobory.html
InPolska 11 | 1,821
19 Jul 2015  #120
@Polonius; thanks but was not the top news in Warsaw (;)).
Very strange that Warsaw was not disorganized. Was it today?


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