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THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY


Chicago Pollock 7 | 503
19 Apr 2010 #121
"And nobody else did? ;)"

That's a broad question, you can write a book on every individual country's response to WWII. Poland has sustained too many slaughters in it's history. They need to learn how to avoid 'em. First thing you have to do is define the problem, once you do that the solution becomes a lot clearer.

"Poles don't trust Poles". Is a good start and how do you build trust? Give the lowliest peasant a rifle and tell him he's responsible if Poland gets invaded.

"gorliwość", is everything. That's what a pro army doesn't have.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
20 Apr 2010 #122
zechs? Hungarians? Slovaks?

Had better infrastructure to begin with and survived the war intact, with the exception of Hungarians who's example you've taken out of your ass, Hungary has far worse infrastructure than Poland.

The infrastructure in Poland is terrible, there just isn't any way to get around that. Parts are getting better (IC rail travel, highways), parts seem to be getting worse (B roads, city roads).

Thats generally because we have to prioritize with our money, key channels first, secondary routes... Sometimes later.

Poland after the war didnt have roads, then you had communism with its central planning (aka no planning at all and fock all economy) and suddenly we end up with 45 years worth of dilapitated, destroyed or ruined infrastrucure and only about 15% budget of Western countries to fix that.

Then add to it our recovering economy and the fact that even with union grants we can devote much less moola to our infrastructure sector then anyone West of us while having epic sized problems with it and you have an answer.

In 20 years Poland will be a wealthy country but the roads will still be sh*tty.
convex 20 | 3,928
20 Apr 2010 #123
Had better infrastructure to begin with and survived the war intact, with the exception of Hungarians who's example you've taken out of your ass, Hungary has far worse infrastructure than Poland.

You're full of sh*t there. I'll give you Romania, but Hungary has an excellent infrastructure.

So how many years does it take to fix the roads? Why are they patched up every year instead of built right? Why is Poland sitting on structural funds?

Regarding the WW2 comment, that doesn't hold much water. Most roads in Europe at that time were old cobble stone roads, some having been asphalted over.

There is no excuse for the roads here. They just aren't taken care of properly. What is happening with all that money? How much of it has been spent?
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
20 Apr 2010 #124
You're full of sh*t there. I'll give you Romania, but Hungary has an excellent infrastructure.

How many km of highways and high speed roads does Hungary have vs Poland? :)))

So how many years does it take to fix the roads?

On the country wide level in an economical situation of Poland? 40~ according to some analysts we'll be approaching the German level by 2030 but still will lag behind.

is Poland sitting on structural funds?

Is it?

Regarding the WW2 comment, that doesn't hold much water. Most roads in Europe at that time were old cobble stone roads, some having been asphalted over.

Wiki autobahns and asphalt highways :)

They just aren't taken care of properly.

Thats absolutely true, on the other hand if they were taken care of properly the effects would still not be significantly better than they are today.

What is happening with all that money?

The money that exists in your head only you mean?

How much of it has been spent?

In Wrocław? There's a shortage of funds atm.
Ogorki - | 114
21 Apr 2010 #125
The performance of the Polish army in any future conflict will depend on one thing only.
To what extent they are betrayed.

In 1939, geographically Poland was already surrounded before the war even started.

It was already partitioned by 2 great powers - because both great powers thought it necessary to "gang up" on Poland in order to win.

Before Russia attacked in 1939, Hitler had not yet defeated Poland. Poland was planning a big counter offensive, by which time they were prepared and not jumped on from behind.

After Wizno, Westerplatte, Mlawa, Krojanty the German army were shitting themselves. So were the Russians. But together they could win.

youtube.com/watch?v=AoQj8GGHNxU

General Guedarian said that if every Polish soldier was like this - we stand no chance.

I refer you back to Ben above.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
21 Apr 2010 #126
General Guedarian said that if every Polish soldier was like this - we stand no chance.

You're a cretin.

As for Guderian the direct quote was more or less:

If Poles had equipment to match ours then despite the deficiencies of their command and communications i do not believe we could prosecute our war with Poland to a succesfull finish, the courage of these men alone could ensure their victory.

It was already partitioned by 2 great powers - because both great powers thought it necessary to "gang up" on Poland in order to win.

Either of them would win anyway.

The performance of the Polish army in any future conflict will depend on one thing only.
To what extent they are betrayed.

Because equipment, strategy and reserves play no role at all.

Works done off to sleep.
Torq
21 Apr 2010 #127
If Poles had equipment... yes... and if Poles weren't attacked by Soviet Union two weeks
into the war, if Poles weren't fighting a one big encirclement battle against Germany,
attaking from the West, North and South and Soviet Union from the East, if Poles didn't
hold their mobilization on the direct request of their "allies", who wanted to "negotiate",
if Poles didn't trust France to launch a counter offensive in case of German invasion
and chose their allies more wisely... if, if, if...
Ogorki - | 114
22 Apr 2010 #128
Either of them would win anyway.

So why didn't they?

So why did Stalin wait for the Germans to go first? 1920 maybe?
So why did Hitler insist on his deal with Russia before invading Poland?
Because he was shi*ting himself. He knew the Poles had this, amongst others.



Fortunately for Hitler he got there just before mass production.

Remember in 1939 Germans equipment was not that of 1942. The vast portion of german army was horse drawn.

I'll say it one more time.

The performance of the Polish army in any future conflict will depend on one thing only.
To what extent they are betrayed.

Once upon a time a story was written - for even simpletons to understand.

So David volunteered to fight Goliath. It took some persuasion, but King Saul finally agreed to let David fight against the giant. Dressed in his simple tunic, carrying his shepherd's staff, slingshot and a pouch full of stones, David approached Goliath. The giant cursed at him, hurling threats and insults.

As Goliath moved in for the kill, David reached into his bag and slung one of his stones at Goliath's head. Finding a hole in the armor, the stone sank into the giant's forehead and he fell face down on the ground. David then took Goliath's sword, killed him and then cut off his head.


You see, if David was betrayed, then the story would have ended differently.

When we put things in proper perspective, we see more clearly and we can fight more effectively,

You are so by the book.

Who won the Vietnam War?
Who beat Russians in Afganistan?
(Who blew up the death star?) :)
Sorry to wake you.
Arg_ 1 | 27
22 Apr 2010 #129
Poland is Poland because of the history.
Chicago Pollock 7 | 503
22 Apr 2010 #130
The performance of the Polish army in any future conflict will depend on one thing only.
To what extent they are betrayed.

If you believe this than there is no hope.

Avoid alliances with other countries and look to yourselves. Instead of fielding a professional army, construct Reserve National Guard Units in every province and county. Put most if not all 18-26 yr. olds under arms (rifles will do). Train the troops for the day if and when you are invaded by a foreign power. Supply your troops with small arms designed and constructed in Poland (rifles are easy to manufacture). Make most of your National Guard Engineering Units so that they can act in National Emergencies and also slowly rebuild your infrastructure. Engage the lowest elements of your society. Pull together.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
22 Apr 2010 #131
So why didn't they?

They did win in 1939 last i checked.

So why did Hitler insist on his deal with Russia before invading Poland?

To make his job easier and complicate the western allies situation.

They would never enter mass production since the project was a failure and got cancelled, not to mention Poland did not have industrial capacity to produce any heavy equipment in amount that mattered.

The performance of the Polish army in any future conflict will depend on one thing only.
To what extent they are betrayed.

And what about equipment and training?:)

Who won the Vietnam War?
Who beat Russians in Afganistan?

Poland is not a jungle country nor a mountain-desert hell, its a flat moderately forested country with relatively good infrastructure, any army including WP can get across Poland in 72 hours in peace time.

construct Reserve National Guard Units in every province and county.

Money for all that comes from lobotomizing people like you and selling your organs?:)
Chicago Pollock 7 | 503
22 Apr 2010 #132
Originally the National Guard and US Coast Guard were volunteer. No pay. It's what is called good citizenship. Poland should start demanding more of its citizens. You're building a nation.
1jola 14 | 1,879
22 Apr 2010 #133
You're building a nation.

We built a nation a thousand years ago.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
22 Apr 2010 #134
Originally the National Guard and US Coast Guard were volunteer.

're building a nation.

Buddy when your people were wiping with hands and New York was five log cabins we already had a nation for over six centuries.

Poland should start demanding more of its citizens.

Polish citizens throught history sacrificed more than any American, you should stop trying to teach history you moron, lots of offense meant :)
Ogorki - | 114
5 Sep 2010 #135
You're an idiot mate, Germany was far more industrialized, Hitler knew Poland had no chance, Poland knew it has no chance alone as well.

In 1939, German army relied heavily on horses. They did not have the Panzer tanks yet. Yes it was more industrialised but not to extent of later in war.

Poland had just defeated the RED ARMY - remember (1920) .Germany had just been crushed. Hitler was glad Pilsudski (inventer of "Lightning War" was dead I can tell you that. (no I am not comparing RED army to Hitler) just pointing out psychological points scored.

Hitler did not know which Polish military projects were failures/successes.
Hitler was taking a calculated gamble and yes it was in his favour.

content removed
Marek11111 9 | 808
5 Sep 2010 #136
Poland would be victorious in 1939 if so called allies did their part and attacked Germany
And I am sure Stalin would never attacked Poland if French and English had attack Germany.
Poland was betrayed by their allies and now I do not understand why Poland join nato and is allied to terrorist state
of United State and send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, is Poland gluten to be betrayed time and time again.
Polish interest would be better served by mending fences with former soviet republics and creating Slavic alliance.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,711
6 Sep 2010 #137
Poland would be victorious in 1939 if so called allies did their part and attacked Germany

Even then it wouldn't be Poland that would be victorious but the allies....

Poland was betrayed by their allies and now I do not understand why Poland join nato and is allied to terrorist state
of United State and send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, is Poland gluten to be betrayed time and time again

Of course Poland all alone by itself would make it so much more safe and secure...suuuuure!

Why do you hate the US so much?

Polish interest would be better served by mending fences with former soviet republics and creating Slavic alliance.

Do you really think there would be an alliance without the biggest and most important slavic country Russia?

And do you really think Russia would give Poland in such an alliance that much of leverage and the same big voice as in the EU?

What else (besides being slavic) would make such an alliance work? Is being slavic enough???
Seanus 15 | 19,672
6 Sep 2010 #138
Marek, please tell me this. How were British Spitfires and Hurricanes supposed to fly across undetected by the Luftwaffe to protect Poland?
sascha 1 | 824
6 Sep 2010 #139
And do you really think Russia would give Poland in such an alliance that much of leverage and the same big voice as in the EU?

Sorry BB, but unfortunately Poland does not have a big voice in EU. In a slavic alliance it would have a bigger, for sure.

What else (besides being slavic) would make such an alliance work? Is being slavic enough???

Yes, and do not forget the last words of A.H. from Austria: "... my biggest mistake was that I underestimated the Slavic..."

Better not to do this mistake again so soon. ;-)
Marek11111 9 | 808
6 Sep 2010 #140
the deal was allies will start combat operation from west within 3 days as most of Hitler army were in Poland he would need to pull considerable amount of troops to defend western border

that would allow Poland to regroup and mobilize and meet in Berlin with allies before Christmas 1939

Why do you hate the US so much?

I do not hate I am objective as I see United States the biggest terrorist and arm dealer of the world.
You do not start war base on lies but United States did it over and over again they kill innocent people while depriving its citizens from food and medicine.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,711
6 Sep 2010 #141
Yes, and do not forget the last words of A.H. from Austria: "... my biggest mistake was that I underestimated the Slavic..."

Yes, and the last word of Bismarck on his death bed had been "Serbia"!

I'm just asking what else there is than being "slavic".
You can't build an (working) alliance on being slavic alone and no, I don't believe Russia won't rule any federation they are in...if Poles complain today about to much power of Germany or France or whomever in the EU they for sure will unpleasantly surprised if Russia assertes his natural advantages!

But then...it's your decision!
Your people will choose about their future....

Better not to do this mistake again so soon. ;-)

It's not our mistake to make...

(Besides from some Slavia-nuts on the internet I really have yet to learn about a party or a movement or anything in that regard. Is there a party which has "Slavija" in their program? Somewhere? And what where their voting successes?)

I do not hate I am objective as I see United States the biggest terrorist and arm dealer of the world.

Well...they are okay...
The alternatives don't look as half as good!

You do not start war base on lies but United States did it over and over again they kill innocent people while depriving its citizens from food and medicine.

Don't tell me you are all up in tears about some ragheads in some far away desert!
Seanus 15 | 19,672
6 Sep 2010 #142
Marek, that's a highly fanciful account. The Luftwaffe would keep the British RAF at bay. When they came to us, they had it much harder due to our technology on the ground. Moving across the Channel was always going to be hard.
Marek11111 9 | 808
6 Sep 2010 #143
Seanus in 1939 they just needed fly ones to free France and remember French had their air force too

BB
Don't tell me you are all up in tears about some ragheads in some far away desert!

I am they deserve for better live and not being bomb daily.
Seanus 15 | 19,672
6 Sep 2010 #144
You make it sound so easy, Marek. It wasn't! Besides, can I remind you that France declared war on the 3rd of Sep, just 2 days after its start. They had no water to cross so why not outline where they went wrong!?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,711
6 Sep 2010 #145
They had no water to cross so why not outline where they went wrong!?

They invaded Germany actually...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive
Seanus 15 | 19,672
6 Sep 2010 #146
Exactly, BB. Please let Marek answer to see how realistic he is on this one.
Marek11111 9 | 808
6 Sep 2010 #147
yes they did and stopped 6k into Germany
Seanus do not take it personally I sail allies that means French and British
Seanus 15 | 19,672
6 Sep 2010 #148
Then how did you expect British forces to get to the east of France so easily, Marek? I'm not offended, don't worry. Just discussing. Why did they stop if most of the Nazi deployment was off to the east of Germany and into Poland? Basic logistics and strategy here.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,711
6 Sep 2010 #149
I am they deserve for better live and not being bomb daily.

Better them than us!
sascha 1 | 824
6 Sep 2010 #150
Well...they are okay...
The alternatives don't look as half as good!

Are u serious?

Don't tell me you are all up in tears about some ragheads in some far away desert!

He doesn't have to be in tears. The mums of american soldiers were and will be, unfortunately.

Please let Marek answer to see how realistic he is on this one.

Isn't this a hypothetically situation?


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