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THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY


Seanus
18 Apr 2010 #91
Sok, must everything be about GDP? I don't think he was referring to the economy, reading between the lines. Poland cannot trust Poles, I see exactly what he is trying to say here. Let him elaborate and I'll likely have my suspicions of his intentions confirmed.
convex
18 Apr 2010 #92
Must be why our GDP was the only one growing in Europe in the past 2 years.

Germans, Russians, and EU are the external enemy...

Anyway, the context was with guns. Would you support issuing an automatic rifle to every male over 18 as part of a defense strategy?

And if you want to quote GDP, you need to remember that quite a bit of GDP is derived from consumer debt.

Anyway, how are median incomes looking like? How about cost of living (or inflation) vs median income (or per capita GDP)? Why is the infrastructure in such poor shape?

For another thread...
Chicago Pollock
18 Apr 2010 #93
Bratwurst Boy, Germany had plans to invade Switzerland but Hitler was dissuaded when the Swiss made no bones about resisting Nazi war machine. They (the Swiss) took about about a dozen German fighter craft right quick. Germany could have taken major Swiss cities but countyside would have remained Swiss (due to reserve army) Ageements you speak of occurred later.

Convex, that explains Polish Partition And why Poles don't defend themselves...Poles don't trust Poles. That's why i wouldn't live there. They've had a bloody history, ripe for the picking.
PolishDude
18 Apr 2010 #94
You're giving the switz too much credit.

Bratwurst Boy, Germany had plans to invade Switzerland but Hitler was dissuaded when the Swiss made no bones about resisting Nazi war machine. They (the Swiss) took about about a dozen German fighter craft right quick. Germany could have taken major Swiss cities but countyside would have remained Swiss (due to reserve army) Ageements you speak of occurred later.

No European country remained truly neutral during WWII. Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland all worked to some extent with the Axis. In Switzerland, the people who lived through the war wanted to believe that it was their army and fortifications that kept the Nazis out. Historical research and documents clearly show that if the Nazis wanted to invade Switzerland, it would have been quick and relatively easy. The reason Germany spared its tiny neighbor to the south was because Switzerland proved much more useful as an independent state than as a satellite. The Swiss made many useful weapon components (aluminium for the Luftwaffe, spark plugs for jeeps taken from the Russians, timing devices for bombs, among other things), and thus their factories were not bombed every night. The Swiss National bank bought gold from the Reichsbank, the Reichsbank was given Swiss francs in exchange, and used them to buy cobalt, nickel and tungsten from the other "neutral" countries.

isyours.com/e/swiss-business-guide/wwii.html
Chicago Pollock
18 Apr 2010 #95
Here's another opinion:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars
Bratwurst Boy
18 Apr 2010 #96
The article agrees....

...
It was, however, precisely because of its neutral status, of considerable interest to all parties involved, as the scene for diplomacy, espionage, commerce, and as a safe haven for refugees.

...
Switzerland's most important exports during the war were precision machine tools, watches, jewel bearings (used in bombsights), electricity, and dairy products. During World War II, the Swiss franc was the only remaining major freely convertible currency in the world,[citation needed] and both the Allies and the Germans sold large amounts of gold to the Swiss National Bank.
Between 1940 and 1945, the German Reichsbank sold 1.3 billion francs worth of gold to Swiss Banks in exchange for Swiss francs and other foreign currency.[18] Hundreds of millions of francs worth of this gold was monetary gold plundered from the central banks of occupied countries. A total of 581,000 francs worth of "Melmer" gold taken from Holocaust victims in eastern Europe was sold to Swiss banks.[18]

Switzerland was much more useful uninvaded...
PolishDude
18 Apr 2010 #97
Here's another opinion:

You actually trust wiki? Anyone can sign up and write anything on wiki. That site I gave you came right from Switzerland. Even their own government recognized Switzerland was no match for Germany.

You sound like a swiss.
Chicago Pollock
18 Apr 2010 #98
Hmmm, you must have overlooked this:

II
Switzerland was surrounded by territory controlled by the Axis Powers from 1940 to 1944.

At the outbreak of World War II in 1939, Switzerland immediately began to mobilize for a possible invasion. The entire country was fully mobilized in only three days. The Swiss government began to fortify positions throughout the country. The total strength of the army and militias grew to over 500,000.

In the course of the war, detailed invasion plans were drawn up by the German military command,[7] such as Operation Tannenbaum, but Switzerland was never attacked. Switzerland was able to remain independent through a combination of economic concessions to Germany, military deterrence and good fortune as larger events during the war delayed an invasion. Attempts by Switzerland's small Nazi party to effect an Anschluss with Germany failed miserably, largely as a result of Switzerland's multicultural heritage, strong sense of national identity, and long tradition of direct democracy and civil liberties. The Swiss press vigorously criticized the Third Reich, often infuriating its leadership. Under General Henri Guisan, a massive mobilization of militia forces was ordered. The Swiss military strategy was changed from one of static defense at the borders, to a strategy of organized long-term attrition and withdrawal to strong, well-stockpiled positions high in the Alps known as the Réduit. This controversial strategy was essentially one of deterrence. The idea was to make clear to the Third Reich that the cost of an invasion would be very high. During an invasion, the Swiss Army would cede control of the economic heartland and population centers, but retain control of crucial rail links and passes in the Réduit. Switzerland was an important base for espionage by both sides in the conflict and often mediated communications between the Axis and Allied powers by serving as a protecting power. Despite public and political pressure some higher ranking officers within the Swiss Army were sympathetic towards the Nazis, notably Colonel Arthur Fonjallaz and Colonel Eugen Bircher, who led the Schweizerischer Vaterländischer Verband.

Portrait of Henri Guisan on a commemorative coin

Nazi Germany repeatedly violated Swiss airspace. During the Invasion of France, German aircraft violated Swiss airspace no fewer than 197 times.[8] In several air incidents, the Swiss (using 10 Bf-109 D, 80 Bf-109 E fighters bought from Germany and some Morane-Saulnier M.S.406s built under license in Switzerland), shot down 11 Luftwaffe planes between 10 May 1940 and 17 June 1940.[8] Germany protested diplomatically on 5 June 1940, and with a second note on 19 June 1940 which contained clear threats. Hitler was especially furious when he saw that German equipment was shooting down German pilots. He said they would respond "in another manner".[8] On 20 June 1940, the Swiss air force was ordered to stop intercepting planes violating Swiss airspace. Swiss fighters began to instead force intruding aircraft to land at Swiss airfields. Anti-aircraft units still operated. Later, Hitler unsuccessfully sent saboteurs to destroy airfields.[9]
Jed
18 Apr 2010 #99
Germans, Russians, and EU are the external enemy...

So, thanks Germans and Russians you were able to keep Poles in tonus? :)

In the past (without EU) it didn't help much...
Bratwurst Boy
18 Apr 2010 #100
Switzerland was surrounded by territory controlled by the Axis Powers from 1940 to 1944.

Why overlooked?

You claimed that the Swiss was so feared by the Axis that they didn't dare to invade the tiny country because every able Swiss man got a rifle....

Fact is that the german machine would had overrun the Swiss like any other country if they had wanted to.
But they could sell unique advantages and possibilities to both, Axis and Allies, which secured them their neutrality and their peace...and that weren't the rifles!
Chicago Pollock
18 Apr 2010 #101
If it weren't for Swiss rifles, Switzerland would have become another Austria.

Germany would have sustained heavy casualties with Swiss invasion.

Historical fact, the Swiss stood up the German war machine and Germany tried to save face with those agreements.
Sokrates
18 Apr 2010 #102
Anyway, the context was with guns. Would you support issuing an automatic rifle to every male over 18 as part of a defense strategy?

If he's a conscript trainee yeah i would, otherwise its a stupid idea in any country.

Anyway, how are median incomes looking like? How about cost of living (or inflation) vs median income (or per capita GDP)? Why is the infrastructure in such poor shape?

Money.

Germany would have sustained heavy casualties with Swiss invasion.

Rubbish.

Germans didnt attack Switzerland because:

1. German speaking 75% majority of Switzerland hated Nazism and there was no hope of Austria like anschluss.

2.The Swiss would blow up tunnels and bridges critical for transport from Italy effectively ******* up some of the most crucial rail routes for years.

3. The Swiss bought german gold and were the only real source of exchangeable currency as german money was no longer internationally recognized.

As far as military Germans could basically drive to Swiss capital in 4-5 days with a single tank regiment.
convex
18 Apr 2010 #103
If he's a conscript trainee yeah i would, otherwise its a stupid idea in any country.

How about making all males to the age of 45 be part of a reserve force?

Money

Czechs? Hungarians? Slovaks?

The infrastructure in Poland is terrible, there just isn't any way to get around that. Parts are getting better (IC rail travel, highways), parts seem to be getting worse (B roads, city roads).
Chicago Pollock
19 Apr 2010 #104
See this map of WWII Europe:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_world_war_europe_1941-1942_map_en.png

There's a big hole in the middle of the Axis Powers. It was Switzerland. Strategically that hole wasn't in the interests of the Axis Powers.

German agreements with Switzerland were a face saving smokescreen.
Bratwurst Boy
19 Apr 2010 #105
There's a big hole in the middle of the Axis Powers. It was Switzerland.

Yeah...and the reason for it was because Hitler shat his pants thinking about the famous warriors of the mighty Swiss...yeah sure! ;)

Think man!
convex
19 Apr 2010 #106
German agreements with Switzerland were a face saving smokescreen.

It was all about resource allocation. Same reason that Sweden wasn't occupied.
Chicago Pollock
19 Apr 2010 #107
"The infrastructure in Poland is terrible, there just isn't any way to get around that. Parts are getting better (IC rail travel, highways), parts seem to be getting worse (B roads, city roads)."

That's one way to get an infrastructure, develop your National Guard as engineering units. Have them start rebuilding your roads.
convex
19 Apr 2010 #108
Have them start rebuilding your roads.

Just keep them away from your levees
ZIMMY
19 Apr 2010 #110
Yes indeed, Switzerland's home army is so powerful that even the Popes hire 'Swiss Guards'.
convex
19 Apr 2010 #111
Levees? That was Bush.

Bush neglected them for nearly 50 years.
Chicago Pollock
19 Apr 2010 #112
Switzerland avoided two world wars because they didn't lay down and say "gee, which boxcar is for me", or "we're going to which gulag?" No they threatened to fight back.
convex
19 Apr 2010 #113
Same for the Swedes and the Spanish?
Chicago Pollock
19 Apr 2010 #114
Swedes and Spanish had fascist leadership. Quisling and Franco. Switzerland was a democracy and publicly opposed Germany. What was Poland, a democracy? In any event they opposed Hitler. If you're going to publicly oppose the guy you have to be prepared to fight.
Bratwurst Boy
19 Apr 2010 #115
Switzerland avoided two world wars because they didn't lay down and say "gee, which boxcar is for me", or "we're going to which gulag?" No they threatened to fight back.

And nobody else did? ;)
nogardthegreat
19 Apr 2010 #116
This is what Poland needs to do.

The exact reason Hitler wanted to save the USA for last and have Japan's help.

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japanese Navy)
MediaWatch
19 Apr 2010 #117
Switzerland avoided two world wars because they didn't lay down and say "gee, which boxcar is for me", or "we're going to which gulag?" No they threatened to fight back.

In general the Swiss were not a target of Germany. Many of them spoke German and had German roots.

Also Switzerland is all mountains. That never hurts when you're being invaded.

There's a reason why all the great armies of the world can't ever seem to conquer the Taliban in the Afghan mountains.
Babinich
19 Apr 2010 #118
Citizen armies are much better than professional armies in a democracy.

I am not so sure. I am reading a book about the American Revolution and citizen armies had plenty of issues. Funds, ammunition, discipline and leadership being some of the largest issues.

The great advantage of citizen armies is their gorliwość.
nogardthegreat
19 Apr 2010 #119
There's a reason why all the great armies of the world can't ever seem to conquer the Taliban in the Afghan mountains.

Their lack of resolve in using nukes! ;-)
Bratwurst Boy
19 Apr 2010 #120
Well, another reason why it would be probably moot to staff every male and able Pole
with a rifle in these days...
A possible attacker would not lack this resolve!

The exact reason Hitler wanted to save the USA for last

Hitler never had the US on his "To do"-list, the same with GB...


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