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THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY


shopgirl 6 | 928
4 Apr 2010 #31
Regarding Russia...far more democratic than authoritarian...not to say there aren't problems, but seriously.

You seem so cozy wrapped up in those delusions.
The propaganda that Russia cranks out is stunning.
Sometimes I show the online English version of Pravda to friends so we can laugh at the spin that Ruskies put on current events. Its better than the Late Show with David Letterman.
convex 20 | 3928
4 Apr 2010 #32
The propaganda that Russia cranks out is stunning.

We're talking about freedom of the press though. If you're looking at manipulation of the large media organizations, look no further than the U S of A. Completely towing the line on the Fed. Sometimes it's sad to watch.

Anyway, saying that the press in Kyrgyzstan, Nepal, Bahrain, Kuwait, Egypt, Egpyt, Sudan, or Belarus is more free than Russia... that's insane. I mean, Tajikistan ranks higher than Russia in the RWB rankings. That is completely mad.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12006
4 Apr 2010 #33
Yes, Germany's mainstream press is also often not perfect (to lefty for my taste) but nobody gets killed and when you want to find another opinion you can do so at least.

And then there is the internet! :)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6146
4 Apr 2010 #34
How strong is Poland's army as of today?

It's crap but It's pretty much the same in most of Europe. Europe is not much militarized anymore.

The propaganda that Russia cranks out is stunning.
Sometimes I show the online English version of Pravda

I generally agree of course but Pravda is not the best example of the Russian press, It became a kind of tabloid full of stuff about alliens and so on.
Sokrates 8 | 3345
5 Apr 2010 #35
Germany would roll over Poland quite fast they're massively more powerfull, short conflict with Russia could be doable, Belarus and Ukraine would get crushed in a month, the difference between our army and theirs is as big as between us and Germany.

2- Why the hell doesn't Poland have mandatory conscription anymore?!

Because our politicians are idiots.

Are there actual benefits to having a professional army?

Superior quality.
joepilsudski 26 | 1388
5 Apr 2010 #36
Between 1772 and 1918 everything was peaceful ... :)

This because there was no Poland. :---)))
TheOther 6 | 3704
5 Apr 2010 #37
That was actually what I was hinting at... ;)
convex 20 | 3928
5 Apr 2010 #38
Germany would roll over Poland quite fast.

I think you underestimate the Russians...maybe even overestimate the Germans. Spot on with Belarus and the Ukraine.

Poland has to rely on a strong partner for defense, she's worried about the two behemoths, but if an open conflict should happen, I'm guessing the ICBMs will be flying, so it's fairly moot. The current strategy consists of establishing themselves as a core NATO partner and hoping that the alliance holds up if sh*t hits the fan. It would be crazy for Poland to try to keep up with the huge neighbors. Being able to deal with non NATO neighbors is enough, the money should go into increasing Polish economic competitiveness.
OP rychlik 41 | 372
5 Apr 2010 #39
I'm a bit skeptical. C'mon, this is not 1939. "Massively more powerful"? That's quite a statement. I know Poland has decent military equipment now, no need to suck German d'icks again. Since the end of WWII Russia has been the unpredictable beast.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12006
5 Apr 2010 #40
I think you underestimate the Russians...maybe even overestimate the Germans.

Somehow I think so too....wearesuchpussycatsnow! ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3345
5 Apr 2010 #41
I'm a bit skeptical. C'mon, this is not 1939. "Massively more powerful"?

Much more modern hardware and a much larger airforce.

That's quite a statement. I know Poland has decent military equipment now

No we have some modern military equipment, german military is 100% state of the art quality, thats a difference.

Since the end of WWII Russia has been the unpredictable beast.

Russian army doesnt have any modern equipment, their training is a joke and whenever they procure something relatively modern like a T-90 tank it turns out they dont have the money to field enough of this.

I think you underestimate the Russians...maybe even overestimate the Germans.

Germans have a small modern well organised force with a massive pile of reserve hardware, they can organise an efficient war machine very quickly, Russians on the other hands had problems even marching into Georgia in an orderly manner.

The difference in quality of an individual soldier on every level (between Poland and Russia) is huge, there's no visible difference in quality of German and Polish troops with the only difference being Germans have more modern sticks, and more of them.
Seanus 15 | 19669
5 Apr 2010 #42
Sokrates, based on your last post in the other thread, how can I take anything you say seriously? Russia waltzed into Georgia very easily indeed and sorted the matter out. The morality of it is another question.

Oh, we see just how effective Germany, plus 41 other countries, are faring in Afghanistan. There are Poles there too. Didn't Jagielski teach you anything at all???

Poland Vs Afghanistan or Germany Vs Afghanistan? How long do you think either of those 2 battles would last?
Sokrates 8 | 3345
5 Apr 2010 #43
Sokrates, based on your last post in the other thread, how can I take anything you say seriously? Russia waltzed into Georgia very easily indeed and sorted the matter out. The morality of it is another question.

Russia entered Georgia without a fight, it also got its columns clogged on the roads for nearly 12 hours which in any real war would mean a slaughterhouse, another point is the complete mess in which Russians entered, for example logistic columns arriving a full two hours before tanks without any recon, by comparison Polish army by standard procedure sends commando troops on ATVs or UAVs, same for Germany.

Oh, we see just how effective Germany, plus 41 other countries, are faring in Afghanistan. There are Poles there too. Didn't Jagielski teach you anything at all???

We're talking about a symmetric conflict not counter insurgency.
convex 20 | 3928
5 Apr 2010 #44
german military is 100% state of the art quality

I think battlefield control wise, absolutely. Quite a bit of the hardware is dated though. Have the PT-91s ever been deployed in combat? How are they against the Leopards?

Poland Vs Afghanistan or Germany Vs Afghanistan? How long do you think either of those 2 battles would last?

In war, or nation building? It all depends on what the objectives are.

The difference in quality of an individual soldier on every level (between Poland and Russia) is huge

You've got it, and the soldiers that fought in Georgia were professional soldiers, not conscripts.

Russians on the other hands had problems even marching into Georgia in an orderly manner.

Russian C&C was apparently severely lacking, but they still got the job done relatively quickly. Apparently the kit was the least of their problems.
Sokrates 8 | 3345
5 Apr 2010 #45
I think battlefield control wise, absolutely. Quite a bit of the hardware is dated though. Have the PT-91s ever been deployed in combat? How are they against the Leopards?

Our PT-91s? Much less protection, no modern ammo and have to stop to shoot, also inferior optics.

Russian C&C was apparently severely lacking, but they still got the job done relatively quickly. Apparently the kit was the least of their problems.

Only because Georgians bailed out fearing annexation.
Seanus 15 | 19669
5 Apr 2010 #46
Yes but one may assume an element of calculation by Putin and Medvedev. I'm not saying they are any great shakes and they were hopeless against Afghanistan back in 79.

In war, Convex.

The reality? I don't know.
Sokrates 8 | 3345
5 Apr 2010 #47
How effective could Poland defend herself in the case of an insulated local conflict of small degree? Like a brawl against Czech Republic about a few squaremiles of mountains?

Thats been done, Poland can easily squash anything east of its border thats not Russia.

Maybe any British/US soldiers here who can tell some experiences about the work with nowadays Polish troups on maneuvers or in Afghanistan/Iraq?

The opinions are glowing but the troops in Afghanistan are a world level elite and the best WP has to offer they're not average professional soldiers.
krakowiak
5 Apr 2010 #48
PT-91s

Sounds not very promising. Hopefully Malaysia chooses not to relly on it solely....

Maybe you can tell me your oppinion on the following equipement:
AMZ Tur & Tur 2: it is told to be cheaper, yet have better protection than the Humvee. If so, will it become a bestseller? Any flaws compared to the Humvee?

The Polish army seems to have had lucky hands with the Patria AMVs. We hear only best reports about it!
Sokrates 8 | 3345
5 Apr 2010 #49
Sounds not very promising. Hopefully Malaysia chooses not to relly on it solely....

Malaysia received a version of a tank thats close in quality to Leo2A4.

AMZ Tur & Tur 2: it is told to be cheaper, yet have better protection than the Humvee. If so, will it become a bestseller? Any flaws compared to the Humvee?

No idea if it becomes a bestseller, both are top notch designs though, they've got Humvees manouverability while burning only half of its fuel consumption and having armor protection of a light APC.

The Polish army seems to have had lucky hands with the Patria AMVs. We hear only best reports about it!

Arguably best wheeled infantry vehicles in the world at the moment.
OP rychlik 41 | 372
6 Apr 2010 #50
The difference in quality of an individual soldier on every level (between Poland and Russia) is huge.

I still like to think that Poland could successfully defend itself against a country like Germany. I think the will to fight would be much stronger for a Pole than a Gerrie.

So does anyone know how the hell Germany was able acquire such a modern army once again? Their army should have no offensive capabilities. Does anyone think this alliance with America will help Poland modernize its military?
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2201
6 Apr 2010 #51
Does anyone think this alliance with America will help Poland modernize its military?

I would say yes, rather then an alliance with Russia for instance. That is (I think) one of the MAIN reason of why the Polish government is pro-American in general
Orzelbialy - | 17
6 Apr 2010 #52
Poland doesn't need a large or powerful army anymore, those days are over! It's been ingrained into German culture now to never start another war, japans also a good example of that. Russia on the other hand is still powerful but will not start a war with Poland because if you invade Poland or any nation in Europe your starting a huge international incident and thatl anger the Americans. I honestly think the days of huge militaries is over, the new battlefields are the economic ones. Buisnesses' and corporations are now very powerful entities and the country with the best corporations and the biggest and most complex economies is the victor.
nomaderol 5 | 726
6 Apr 2010 #53
I honestly think the days of huge militaries is over, the new battlefields are the economic ones.

True. It was and is. Military army members too need money to do their jobs, to produce or to buy their guns.

Buisnesses' and corporations are now very powerful entities and the country with the best corporations and the biggest and most complex economies is the victor.

True. But, such entities have no border. If you look at central banks, they dont trust even their governments and their private sectors in the same country who use money as value. Central banks use gold as value instead of money. Governments and private sectors hate this.

With this economy crisis, importance of companies and incorporations is not so important now. Militaries will be important, but, conventional guns will not be important as everybody has such guns. Only nukes are important now. If you dont have nukes, you are out of the game. If you have nukes, again, you are out of the game.
convex 20 | 3928
6 Apr 2010 #54
I still like to think that Poland could successfully defend itself against a country like Germany. I think the will to fight would be much stronger for a Pole than a Gerrie.

Uh, sure. You could probably save quite a bit of money by just sitting around and willing away all of your problems. It's not a boxing match, it's who's got the nicer car. Currently Germany has the nicer car, and more of them...(And they're pretty good drivers).

So does anyone know how the hell Germany was able acquire such a modern army once again?

Not big on history eh? I'll give you a hint, someone had to take the brunt of a Warsaw Pact armor attack.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1879
6 Apr 2010 #55
shopgirl wrote:

Sometimes I show the online English version of Pravda to friends so we can laugh at the spin that Ruskies put on current events. Its better than the Late Show with David Letterman.

sounds like Fox News in America.
Sokrates 8 | 3345
6 Apr 2010 #56
I still like to think that Poland could successfully defend itself against a country like Germany.

Germany ordered 185 modern self propelled artillery, we ordered 8, Germany ordered 140 modern multirole fighters, we ordered 48.

So does anyone know how the hell Germany was able acquire such a modern army once again?

Economy breast fed by USA and 50 years of head start as far as a free market while we were host to Russians.

Does anyone think this alliance with America will help Poland modernize its military?

Nope, US already showed its unwilling to help Poland out.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12006
6 Apr 2010 #57
Their army should have no offensive capabilities.

How should such an army look like? Tanks without tracks or what??? ;)
Jets flying only backwards? U-boats stopping automatically on the invisible water border???

Germany is now third biggest arms dealer in the world - we still make fine stuff the world wants to buy, using it is another thing.
king polkacanon - | 57
6 Apr 2010 #58
Yes,some politicians are in fact the best weapon dealers.
Crow 160 | 9305
9 Apr 2010 #59
Poljaci, tell me what is best example of Polish individual bravery and military virtue in Polish history?
Torq
9 Apr 2010 #60
Let me guess - something connected with Serbia, right? ;)


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