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Abortion still under control in Poland


4 eigner 2 | 831
17 Oct 2012 #331
What's your point?

why are you defending abortion so wholeheartedly? Don't you really have any problem with aborting a living creature inside you? Is it really all about numbers and science? What about human feelings?
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #332
Anyway. I've said all I have to say on the matter. I'm off. You guys can all congratulate yourselves - or whatever it is you do now...
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #333
We've already discussed the mental health of women regarding the issue.

Correction. You 'discussed' it - you said that according to your googling, women who suffered emotional trauma were in the minority, and that they mostly already had suffered from depression or had a leaning towards it. You basically said that these women were unstable anyhow, and it was nothing to do with the abortion. Which, is nonsense.

You really know absolutely nothing about this, all of your comments are based on questionable 'research' and an extraordinarily patronising attitude. You even argue yourself into the corner of saying that you don't know whether a newborn baby is a person or not, which is extraordinary nonsense. Are we only people when we have lived a specified time and died? We are always developing. Always. Until we decay. From conception, to death.

You have said that you don't want children, and consider pregnancy and childbirth an unacceptable ordeal for yourself. So ... whatever you do, do not patronise those of us who have had several experiences that you have never, and will never, have. Because you just don't know what you're talking about. You talk about respect, but are extremely selective in what you respect. And you are showing absolute lack of respect for the experiences and opinions of others here.

But it is so about you. Anyhow, that aside ... if there is no morality set in stone, then presumably that applies to everything. So just tell us, before you go - if a murderer says he felt he was justified (such as the guy in Norway), then it is OK, and we should respect his freedom of choice, and of belief, however distasteful we find it? Because that is where your argument ends up.
4 eigner 2 | 831
17 Oct 2012 #334
You guys can all congratulate yourselves

Well, I guess we will congratulate you instead for being a living example for how inhuman some humans can be.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #335
Could we keep this a discussion, please?
Wroclaw Boy
17 Oct 2012 #336
No need for that at all, shes completely entitled to her opinion without the sanctimonios or religious BS.

For the record im with Gabi on this one with regard to abortion within certain circumstances.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,957
17 Oct 2012 #337
Anyway. I've said all I have to say on the matter. I'm off. You guys can all congratulate yourselves -

and that's not engaging in debate either really is it? Have your say and then be unavailable to listen to other opinions?
I think abortion is better legal than not, and shouldn't be undertaken lightly. That's all.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #338
Wasn't being sanctimonious or religious - just incredulous.

We all said pretty much that abortion in certain circumstances was an acceptable option, but we differed on what those circumstances were. Some of us extreme medical danger to the women, and/or a situation such as someone having been raped, and others of us ... that if it didn't suit the woman, for whatever reason, it was fine to abort as the 'thing' is only a thing anyhow, and not scientifically proven to be 'alive' or 'a person' (according to Google) ...
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Oct 2012 #339
SeanBM,It's hard not to let your emotions get in the way when your talking about life.It is also hard for woman when after all it is their body that this involves.I myself try to stick to logic and think this way,but I'm not above getting caught up either.

Are you saying the repercussions of it being legal or illegal or both ways?
kondzior 12 | 1,200
17 Oct 2012 #340
I hate these shity immoral faux-Liberal arguments people make.
What about my freedom to choose to crash some's guy skull in order to obtain his wallet? Morality is not set in stone, so what about my freedom to do what damn pleases me, no matter what others think?

Give up rights and freedoms just because you had had some sex? No, but give up rights and freedoms which are harmful to the little baby growing inside your belly? Damn yes. Just like men have to front most of the money in the marriage, just like men have to physically protect women in life threatening situations, women have certain responsibilities too related to their sex. Women aren't just men+vagina and boobs. They have a distinctly different biological features which give them some fundamentally different responsibilities in life than men. This is a fact. No amount of political and social conditioning will change it.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #341
You basically said that these women were unstable anyhow, and it was nothing to do with the abortion.

I said no such thing. I said that there are markers, and that all women need to be properly psychologically vetted and counselled before they go through such a procedure. And it should be for a doctor to decide.

You really know absolutely nothing about this, all of your comments are based on questionable 'research' and an extraordinarily patronising attitude.

I've linked to scientific university papers, wikipedia, and documents which are directly linked to the findings of the world health organisation, and the countries own internal figures from various ministries and departments. How are they questionable. Would you prefer me to pull the figures out of my arse as you are doing? You've provided no figures, no studies, you've talked about your opinion and given anecdotes, you haven't quoted anyone but yourself.

Where life begins is a real philosophical question. It's hardly nonsense. The great philosophers have been discussing it since time began. We base our modern laws on philosophy and science. From my perspective, you guys seem to be avoiding all the difficult questions, or just don't want to broach them, or are just plain uncomfortable discussing them. There's no corners. I haven't done any back-pedalling, I haven't changed any goalposts. I haven't used emotive language. I haven't tried to force my view onto anyone. There's no corner here. It's not a F*king boxing ring.

So ... whatever you do, do not patronise those of us who have had several experiences that you have never, and will never, have.

I'm not patronising you because of your experience. It's just you seem to think that your experience is the be all and end all, and anything else is a "dodgy paper", even if it is linked to real, scientific, university and NGO studies. I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm asking you to look at the studies.

Goodnight.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #342
They have a distinctly different biological features which give them some fundamentally different responsibilities in life than men.

you dare to suggest what anybody should consider their responsibility? ; )
kondzior 12 | 1,200
17 Oct 2012 #343
Science need not come into this discussion, nor any talk about how to describe the fetus in terms of its rights. Killing a child post-birth is infanticide and anybody practicing such a thing should be thrown in jail for the rest of their days here on earth.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #344
I think abortion is better legal than not, and shouldn't be undertaken lightly. That's all.

So do I. It's late and I'm tired. I don't think anyone should have to go through abortion. I think there needs to be more care involved. I don't think that women are psychologically examined enough before undergoing abortion. I think it's incredibly difficult for everyone involved and the number one thing should be compassion and understanding. I'm sorry if I offended you.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,957
17 Oct 2012 #345
of course they are not, all you get is a box tick thing to make it legal and some dirty old doc copping a feel...

no offence taken Gabi, goodnight to you too
xx
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #346
Are you saying the repercussions of it being legal or illegal or both ways?

Of being illegal. Poland and Ireland have neighboring countries for the people to go to for abortions.

If abortion were made illegal in all countries, self induced abortions and unsafe abortions would kill a large amount of people, along with that trauma and it being an illegal business it would have to be taken over by gangsters.

According to WHO statistics, the risk rate for unsafe abortion is 1/270; according to other sources, unsafe abortion is responsible for one in eight maternal deaths

And again I advocate education and contraception before abortion.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #347
Would you prefer me to pull the figures out of my arse as you are doing?

? Haven't quoted any figures, no. Absolutely not. Have offered my opinion based on personal experience. If you had climbed Mount Everest, and I hadn't, I wouldn't expect you to quote me figures about how many people had, what their reasons had been, etc. - I would expect you to tell me what it was like - to give me your personal experience. Your individual response. That would be more valuable to me than figures.

There's no corner here. It's not a F*king boxing ring.

You seem to speak English but I get the feeling we aren't speaking the same language.
I meant that your arguments led to a point of absolute nonsense, if followed through - where you wouldn't admit that a baby, out of the mother, was a human being. That is pretty crazy, surely?

But hey. As you say, it takes all sorts. What has annoyed me are your authoritative generalisations about women - such as that they cannot tell when they are fertile, that childbirth is a monstrous ordeal, etc., ... and the patronising attitude, but I'm sure you meant well. No offence taken.
Wroclaw Boy
17 Oct 2012 #348
Young girl of 15 from a middle class back ground and university education ahead - has drunken unprotected sex once with a boy and gets pregnant, boy is also 15 and suggests termination.

should she abort?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
17 Oct 2012 #349
should she abort?

If she wants to.

Certain barbarians would happily have her give birth and then snatch the child away for adoption - which could easily be far worse than abortion psychologically. They don't care though, they've got the baby.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #350
should she abort?

Morning after pill?

I know you want a yes or no but I can't make such a decision for someone else.
I presume the parents would be heavily involved in the decision because of her young age.

If she wants to.

Do you think she's old enough to decide and fully understand the implications of that decision, either way?
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #351
should she abort?

It is a difficult situation because she is barely out of childhood herself, and she probably doesn't appreciate what it is to have a child, and what the full truth of her options is.

If she were my daughter, I would not suggest abortion, because of how traumatic and damaging it is, and how it results in a death, and the subsequent grief. I would try to give her the most truthful explanation of her options. I suspect that I would encourage her to have the baby, and that I would then take over the responsibility for bringing it up, until such time as she was able to take this on. She should complete school, and go to university. And there would come a moment where she was ready to have her child with her. And her child would be there.

So: I don't think that abortion should be the first-choice option. I think bringing the baby into a supportive family, and supporting the young mother as well. You say she has money, and a middle-class background, so ... I think that having the baby would ultimately be less damaging for her than having an abortion.
pgtx 30 | 3,157
17 Oct 2012 #352
Delph, you mention adoption. I think that's the best can happen to unwanted children.
What about those who end up dead in dumpsters, rivers, trash bags on a street.
I'm with Gabi.

People wanted democracy and free choice and now they forse their morality on others. Sick.
Wroclaw Boy
17 Oct 2012 #353
I know you want a yes or no but I can't make such a decision for someone else.

a life ruined in terms of career prospects and all the other associated negatives or a potential life terminated?

Morning after pill?

i suppose thats the most humane form of abortion.
pgtx 30 | 3,157
17 Oct 2012 #354
Morning after pill is not a form of abortion, WB.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #355
I would encourage her to have the baby, and that I would then take over the responsibility for bringing it up, until such time

I know a girl who was brought up believing her mother was her sister and her grandmother her mother.
It was devastating when she found out.

I am not saying you wouldn't tell everyone who was who but some people are afraid of other people's judgment.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,957
17 Oct 2012 #356
a life ruined in terms of career prospects and all the other associated negatives or a potential life terminated?

having a baby doesn't have to ruin your life though, I have known a few who with their parents' support have continued with university despite having a baby.

in fact it could improve someone's life, some focus and responsibility.
is this a real sitch WB?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #357
I googled it:

Answer: No, it cannot. An abortion terminates a pregnancy. The morning after pill is meant to prevent pregnancy. Morning after pills like Plan B, Next Choice, and Postinor will not harm or end an existing pregnancy. If you are pregnant, the morning after pill will NOT end the pregnancy.

It depends on whom you ask. Some people believe that life begins at the moment of conception (when egg/sperm unite). However, the research on mode of action suggests that inhibiting implantation of a fertliized egg is not a mode of action. So, actually the morning after pill should be OK for them. But depends if you believe the research or just hearsay

4 eigner 2 | 831
17 Oct 2012 #358
People wanted democracy and free choice and now they forse their morality on others. Sick.

democracy has nothing to do with killing innocent newborns to be. It's sick to feel that way about democracy.
pgtx 30 | 3,157
17 Oct 2012 #359
Democracy is many bad things you don't want to think about :)
Wroclaw Boy
17 Oct 2012 #360
in fact it could improve someone's life, some focus and responsibility.

well, you never hear a lady say she regretted having a baby.

is this a real sitch WB?

no

If she were my daughter, I would not suggest abortion, because of how traumatic and damaging it is, and how it results in a death

Thats the butterfly effect, im sure many mothers who had gone through with unwanted pregnancies and ended up in council flats would have the opposite opinion.


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