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Abortion still under control in Poland


Ironside 50 | 10,940
17 Oct 2012 #301
There is no such option in Poland.

Oh but those women (at least majority)do want babies - but not just yet. And they can read and write, they can educate themselves there is no excuse.

Per capita the abortion rate in Polish women is nearly twice that of the UK. So much for being more careful.

It is just an estimation not actual numbers - right?

you state that men should also be involved in decision making, although you say above that women should educate themselves...

I said that if men are made by the law to pay on children born outside wedlock then only just is to give them say in a decision whether or not their child should be born.Its only fair.

You missing a point here - we are talking about women who do not want to have children - the same goes of curse for men.
kondzior 12 | 1,200
17 Oct 2012 #302
abortion appears to breed narcissism -- I matter more then you. I being the mother, you the child. I being society, you the mother. abortion is thus a symptom of disfunction, and the reason why pro-lifers will always be unsuccessful: they are not treating the root of the issue.

I think this is a clear result of the stupid idea that genders are equal. Women bear children. Don't know what else can be said about that, I mean, that's just the way it is so yes they alone have a responsibility to bear a healthy child while said child is in their womb. If men could get pregnant then I'd say the same. What is this line? Is it unreasonable to expect a parent to be responsible? I'm all for going after dead beat men, in many ways they're the most to blame for all these problems, but it doesn't mean a child has to suffer.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #303
abortion appears to breed narcissism -- I matter more then you.

Completely agree.

I think this is a clear result of the stupid idea that genders are equal. Women bear children.

Also agree. Would take it from a different angle, too - that a sane and moral society should support this role of women, and in every way it can, show respect for that role. So, a doctor asking a pregnant woman the unprompted question if she has 'made her decision' yet about whether to 'continue with the pregnancy' - is an example of breathtaking dysfunctionality in the society. Isn't it?
Rysavy 10 | 308
17 Oct 2012 #304
I 've not weighed in here because it was at first all men arguing and I REALLY dislike how the thread is titled. It is makes for troll bait "Control?"rly? But Natasha is not alone.........

My children , which you can see in my profile..were all carried to term after I was age 30.
Invasive procedures and pressure to abort has come with each one. A given almost- I have to actually speak loud to say ?what! Of course I am keeping "it"!

I am very adamant about a desire for abortion to be called what it is: Terminating one life for the convience of one's own. Period.

Biblical consideration aside (and it states at conception in several places)....
Conception and the child is dehumanized in order to sugar coat and justify....
And even the infamous person here in US who fought in Roe vs Wade- regretted both the action and her case being made landmark .

I believe informed choices and FULL information is required. Pro abortionsits call it scare stories...
Have any of these pro abortionists (I say that..in my belife pro-choice is the availbility of procedure in MEDICAL hands..not the tax support and promotion of it!) really watched a child in ultrasound? (which wasnt available when abortion was legalized). He/she is alive. Not alive like mold...truly alive!

Throwing abortion numbers out does not indicate how many of those young women did not know the full consequence..the risks to their fertility.. their mental state... Coercion comes in many forms and degrees.

Without many details..mine involved a gun, involved being tracked down, taken out of state against my will to a state that allowed for later termination. I had my "support " along side me all along... "aww how caring! " By the time I could speak alone to anyone it was too late. It wasn't even his child...he wanted ownership of me...

The damage done made for inability to carry without assistance until repair was thought to be done when my middle son was born
(oh yay ..now I can have the typical family litters.. *sigh* and our women dont hit menopause til well into 60s). My Xmonster hates kids so had a vasectomy. He put up so didnt have to shut up.

I always know the WEEK I concieve that I am pregnant. And I am not the warm fuzzy type.
Though I gladly accept each pregnancy as a miracle and each child as a measureless gift, my aspergers actually makes it a queasy and disturbing time to have something LIVING moving INDEPENDENTLY of me and 'touching' me from inside.

I must point out though..sometimes one is on wrong side of small percent. My youngest made his way past 3 forms of birth control. One being Depo Provero !!

(( *whistle* 9_9 ..despite being forbidden by my normal physician to use hormonals..oh right Planned Parenthood asks no questions and simply promotes. So if I as knowledgible adult did that..how many young who are under parental responsibility do so?)

Whats really ironic is when I tease family on the far side of left about death penalties (which they are so adamnat on taking of a life then) simply being "retroactive abortions". Sooo angry.

(I know it is trolly of me. I try not to most the time..but after they slap my face with their trout mace of +12 Liberalism 2-3 times ..I must use my saving throw to up my +13(add 6 for cha) shield of STFU!) srry my humor is all that keeps me sane
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #305
Sorry - did you miss the bit where I said I have experience termination of a pregnancy?

Yes sorry, I missed that, I should not post when I am tired.

the higher mental functions are inactive ... we normally ask the relatives of the person if they wish to switch the support off.

Do you consider a fetus not to have human personhood before brain function? and after the fetus has brain function the beginning of human personhood?

I believe informed choices and FULL information is required.

I doubt if anyone would disagree on that.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Oct 2012 #306
Foreigner4,You've got the gist of what I'm saying.

natasia,thank you for sharing some of your experiences.SeanBM,I completely agree about being informed.
kondzior 12 | 1,200
17 Oct 2012 #307
Do you consider a fetus not to have human personhood before brain function? and after the fetus has brain function the beginning of human personhood?

Life begins at conception. It is a simple scientific and logical understanding. If you want to embrace some insane and overdeluded notion that it begins at 3 weeks, 3 months, or whatever, then do me a favor: go back in time and make your mother abort you.

Read about the procedure. Look at pictures. Abortion is inhuman and disgusting for anyone that isn't a psychopath. No matter the excuse used to justify it, it is exactly that.

That said, there are some circumstances where it is *Understandable* why someone would choose it. Rape, and extreme risk to the mother are two scenarios where I could understand the choice. Being too young or 'not ready' to have children simply is not.

I find it hilarious that people would want someone who kills a pregnant woman charged with twio murders yet somehow think abortion is -aok. The logic there just doesn't make sense.

There is a simply way to avoid having unwanted chidlren. Stop having unprotected sex. This is 2012, there are plenty of ways to avoid such a scenario.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #308
I am very adamant about a desire for abortion to be called what it is: Terminating one life for the convience of one's own. Period.

Thank you, thank you ... at last another woman who gets it, and is equally outraged. As we all should be (that is a meek and muted call to arms, I promise - I am not trying to dictate what anyone should do ; ). And I am only saying 'woman' because guys don't go through this - but a lot of guys in this discussion show far more humanity & understanding than some of the other women - not quite sure why the women are so in favour. I think it is the women who haven't had the experience ... and, e.g., someone with a pathological fear of childbirth wouldn't want their lifeline cut by abortion not being available ...

Conception and the child is dehumanized in order to sugar coat and justify....

Yes. Shamelessly so. Unbelievably so.

young women did not know the full consequence..the risks to their fertility.. their mental state... Coercion comes in many forms and degrees.

Yes again. Big yes to coercion coming in many forms. This is a subtle business.

natasia,thank you for sharing some of your experiences

You're welcome. Not a great topic, really, but just seems that in such a discussion, there need to be some genuine examples.

go back in time and make your mother abort you.

Hear, hear.

Abortion is inhuman and disgusting for anyone that isn't a psychopath. No matter the excuse used to justify it, it is exactly that.

Bravo again.

Being too young or 'not ready' to have children simply is not.

You said it.

But to get right back to topic ... are we then saying that the Catholic Church is good, and ok, to do all it can to put the brakes on this practice?
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #309
Just here to say, there are still plenty that disagree -just most can't be bothered. I think everything has been discussed to death now. Neither sides are going to agree. However, in the western world, you guys are in the minority, and with education and the abililty to use reason over our rather base and biological "disgust" mechanisms, our world has actually got more moral.

No one has any right to dictate their morality onto others, morality is not black and white. They tried it with slavery, with womens rights, with homopobia and prejudice, and reason is winning. People "do unto others...." more in our modern epoch than ever before. The fact that you all feel the need to dictate your world view onto others, is quite arrogant. I'm off, you can continue the back slapping contest.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #310
Life begins at conception. It is a simple scientific and logical understanding

What are your thoughts on In Vitro?

Okay, so lets take a look at the situation where abortion is illegal.

; abortion rates are similar in countries where the procedure is legal and in countries where it is not according to the World Health Organization

WHO

So people are not going to stop, just because it's illegal.

Unsafe abortions: (illegal abortions)

Women seeking to terminate their pregnancies sometimes resort to unsafe methods, particularly when access to legal abortion is restricted. They may attempt to self-abort or rely on another person who does not have proper medical training or access to proper facilities.

Unsafe abortion is believed to result in approximately 68,000 deaths and millions of injuries annually.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Unsafe_abortion

So making it illegal would appear to kill adults. The psychological trauma that it creates and the lining of gangster's pockets. We live in a far from perfect world, just making something illegal doesn't change much, I am arguing that it would make the world worse,
Wroclaw Boy
17 Oct 2012 #311
Bravo again.

bravo my dupa, plus hes a guy - its easier for men to say something like that.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
17 Oct 2012 #312
Some believe that sperm should not be 'wasted' because it has the potential for life

It has potential for life as much as water has potential to become a house... after it's mixed with a few other things and turned into concrete... sperm has the potential for life but is not really life yet, a fetus is. Do you have siblings ? I do, they look similar to me but are totally different, they have totally different jobs, interests or political views... It's obviously not that when one "abort" a child and 1 or 2 years later get pregnant again, It will be the same person after birth... which shows that each fetus is an unique person in its early stage of development...

Some here claim that it's not a human yet becasue is not able to survive independently... well, can a 1 year old child survive independently ? Why not "abort" up to a few years after birth then?
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #313
So making it illegal would appear to kill adults.

It's really not worth providing facts here. Especially not to university papers, or health organisations. Facts get in the way personal opinion, and this should be wholeheartedly ignored.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Oct 2012 #314
each fetus is an unique person in its early stage of development...

a unique 'THING' according to some here ...

Gabi, a question for you:

Fetuses, as you prefer to call them, are known as 'fetus' medically up until delivery. So, then, why have any limit at all to abortion? Isn't a 9-month termination just as OK? Because one of the points some of us have been making is that in carrying out abortion while the 'fetus' is small, when it is relatively easy to do, it is equally easy to pretend nothing serious has been done, when in fact it has. But you have said that while the 'fetus' is in the mother, it is not born, and therefore not alive, and not a person. So does it become a person when it comes out? By your high-level reasoning, then that must mean that while the 'fetus' is still within the mother, it is ok to abort.

Do you get in any tiny way how spurious your logic is?
jon357 66 | 17,078
17 Oct 2012 #315
Compared to your logic?

Trust what the medical profession say, rather than emotions.
kondzior 12 | 1,200
17 Oct 2012 #316
To put things into perspective, the Western world is in the proccess of self-anihilation.
Blindly arguing for something in the interest of "protecting woman's rights" without first looking at the issue at hand is called blind ideology and it isn't a healthy way to conduct a society.

So people are not going to stop, just because it's illegal.

That could be said about a lot of things, doesn't make them morally sound though and it certainly doesn't mean that there's no point in discussing them.

Abortion is convenient, that's why its widespread. Back in the day we used to place unwanted kids out in the woods for wolves to eat. It's much cleaner and clinical these days, but its essentially the same thing. You can rationalize that the not fully developed baby doesn't has any feelings/thoughts/whatever yet, so what? A born baby doesn't possess all things a grown human being have either, but yet the law considers them persons with rights even though they are lacking in some areas.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #317
It has potential for life as much as water has potential to become a house...

I am just trying to figure out when human personhood begins, some believe sperm has the potential and therefore it is sacred.

one of the points some of us have been making is that in carrying out abortion while the 'fetus' is small

And others say sperm:

Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted.

first looking at the issue at hand

Enlighten me, what is the issue at hand? I'm talking about abortion, how it is practiced as much if it is legal as when it is not and therefore more dangerous.

it certainly doesn't mean that there's no point in discussing them.

I am here discussing, what's your point?

Abortion is convenient, that's why its widespread.

That's why I mentioned Hansel and Gretel before.

A born baby doesn't possess all things a grown human being have either, but yet the law considers them persons with rights

From two different lives, you get a third, new life, when do you think that happens and what are your thoughts on In Vitro?
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #318
abortion is carried out because while the 'fetus' is small, it is relatively easy to do, and to pretend nothing serious has been done.

I don't think anyone has made that point.

. But you have said that while the 'fetus' is in the mother, it is not born, and therefore not alive, and not a person.

That's not what I said either.

So does it become a person when it comes out?

I have no idea. There is no scientific consensus on it.

What I do know, is that if a person is on life support, and their higher brain functions are non-existent (vegetative states), then the family are asked if they wish to continue the life support.

A brain-dead individual has no clinical evidence of brain function upon physical examination. This includes no response to pain and no cranial nerve reflexes.

It is important to distinguish between brain death and states that may mimic brain death (e.g., barbiturate overdose, alcohol intoxication, sedative overdose, hypothermia, hypoglycemia, coma or chronic vegetative states). Some comatose patients can recover, and some patients with severe irreversible neurological dysfunction will nonetheless retain some lower brain functions such as spontaneous respiration, despite the losses of both cortex and brain stem functionality.

Would you be willing to tell families who turn off the life support machines of their vegetative relatives, that they are murders and that the person is still alive, and that they are KILLING them? Or would you let them make their own damned decision?

Higher brain function controls the following:
Frontal Lobes
Parietal Lobe
Occipital Lobe
Temporal Lobe

Must we assign personhood to something which cannot and never has been able to form or store memories, has no emotions, no spontaneity, no recognition, that doesn't respond to any kind of stimuli, has never been able to and cannot recognise faces, or objects, or make sense of its surroundings, see, hear, or interpret any kind of audio-visuality? That if on a life machine, some would class as dead.

I honestly can't. Perhaps you can - and you have every right to. I'm not trying to change your personal perspective. What I'm asking is why should your perspective be legislated? How would you like it if I tried to legislate mine on you? I don't think you'd like it.

Didn't Jesus once say do unto others........?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
17 Oct 2012 #319
but it might be able to feel pain, we don't know....
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #320
bit.ly/U5jhiv

Educate yourself my friend.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #321
but it might be able to feel pain, we don't know....

Read this, it'll help
jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

Scientific research generally indicates that the fetus is incapable of feeling pain until at least the 24th week

rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
17 Oct 2012 #322
Educate yourself my friend.

don't patronise me gabi, thanks.
I had an abortion once and have never recovered from that trauma mentally.
I still wonder what that person would look like now.
Have you had an abortion GABI? Obviously not or you wouldn't be shouting so loud.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Oct 2012 #323
rozumiemnic,it's easy for people to say all kinds of things when they haven't experienced it themselves.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #324
I didn't mean to patronise you, but it's quite easy to do a google search, and I've been working all day.

Everyone is shouting here. Including men. I don't think they've had abortions either. We've already discussed the mental health of women regarding the issue.
kondzior 12 | 1,200
17 Oct 2012 #325
Enlighten me, what is the issue at hand?

Cold blooded murder of unborn child for the sake of convenience. It constantly amazes me how people can advocate the killing of the unborn.

To let you know where Im coming from, my opinion on this matter doesnt come from religion - it comes from what I think is merely rational thinking. Either side of the womb...abortion is murder.

What's crazy to me is that somehow because you cant "see" the unborn child then you arent slicing and dicing a human that feels pain, is forming thoughts, and is just as real as you or I.

Even when they are in early development they have a heart, a brain, and feel pain. HOW can anyone think that its no ok to shoot the baby on the table after its born, but it is somehow absolvable to kill it later?

From two different lives, you get a third, new life, when do you think that happens?

The question makes no sense since "time" is a relative concept that doesn't exist at a divine level. As such, there is no right "moment" in which we can "rightfully" dispose of a fetus due to its "soullessness". You are not going to wiggle yourself out from the burden of human decency (and what a burden that must be!) with such technicalities. The courtroom of God admits no Foul play with the letter of the law when only the essence of it exists at the source
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
17 Oct 2012 #326
but it's quite easy to do a google search, and I've been working all day.

see even that is quite patronising, perhaps you don't realise how you come over?
I have been blagging trains across Germany and Holland all day AND running a small business, fwiw, so what?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Oct 2012 #327
Cold blooded murder of unborn child for the sake of convenience.

Do you hold the same opinion about In Vitro?

it's easy for people to say all kinds of things when they haven't experienced it themselves.

It's also easy for people to let their emotions be their only guide.

I have yet to hear any argument against my idea of abortion becoming illegal and the horrifying repercussions, i.e. unsafe abortions.
legend 3 | 664
17 Oct 2012 #328
Very large discussion indeed.

I agree with kondzior and natasia in most points.
4 eigner 2 | 831
17 Oct 2012 #329
Educate yourself my friend

mccl.org/unborn-babies-can-feel-pain.html

"With the advent of sonograms and live-action ultrasound images, neonatologists and nurses are able to see unborn babies at 20 weeks gestation react physically to outside stimuli such as sound, light and touch."

Besides, why are you defending abortion so wholeheartedly? Don't you really have any problem with aborting a living creature inside you? Is it really all about numbers and science? What about human feelings?
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
17 Oct 2012 #330
Don't you really have any problem with aborting a living creature inside you? ... What about human feelings?

Because it's not about me. It's about the personal feelings of the individual. I've already said that like, a million times. And I hate people trying to force their morality on others as if morality is set in stone - it's not that I'm defending abortion per se, I'm defending freedom of choice - and freedom of belief - especially on grounds without evidence. I'm defending the freedom for a woman to feel however she damn well pleases about her pregnancy - no matter how distasteful others might find that feeling.. It's not for me to dictate, and it's not for you either.


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