Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.

Wait and see, few more years and 70% of them will speak English :-)

80% of Lithuanians can speak Russian and 32% can speak English today.

They had to learn Russian when they were part of the U.S.S.R.

Now they are part of the E.U. and want to do international business they are learning English, so yes, there will be many more people speaking English in the future but I think they will still hold on to Russian and Polish because they are such a small country in between such big countries it just makes business sense.

If you look at it the other way round, the countries that don't learn other languages have enough internal market that it is simply not necessary. This isn't the case with Lithuania but is for Poland.

they probably hate it too


I don't know, when I talked with them, it seemed like they don't really like either one of them.

economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/10/poland_and_lithuania

Poland snuggling up to Russia on the back of it's neighbour??? ;)

I doubt it, unless the Poles were arguing from the context of equivalence of the Polish language with Lithuanian, which I strongly doubt. In which case his comment more than speaks for itself.

Well i think good relations with Germany and Russia are far more important to Poland, not just to have peaceful relations with those two, but economic benefits. Lithuanians mistrust us, during the Polish-Soviet War (Bolshevik) of 1920, after driving the enemy back, Polish soldiers decided to just 'take' Vilnius while they're there, and incorporate part of Lithuania into Poland. Then Soviets annexed them in 1940. They have they're reasons.

1.


2.


Hi guys, glad you in a good (proper Polish) mood :D

Don't want to argue with you , especially if some of you already have your firm opinion about everything and doubt about everything else.. ;)

Seems to me, i have idea what Ažubalis was talking about, especially because it's neither news nor something special or important.
But first, let me stress, that from the article i understand that "TVP reports that Lithuania's Foreign Minister, Audronius Ažubalis, stated..." - and the article itself is about business, and it is in English, and Ažubalis (i suspect) was talking in lithuanian. So this is not his words, but the information about his words. So if one doubt that it can make any difference - keep on doubting, no problem, if someone knows better - good for him, i'm not that smart (peasant blood and such... you know), i just am in a good mood and share it with you, though you are not supposed to be obliged to accept that ;).

So, basically, those words (in the quote in the article) are rather sensless, don't you agree with me? How "encouraging to study Polish" can be "shortchanging" or something? Don't you think that even such idea should be stupid in essence - and don't you have any suspicion, that there could be some sort of misunderstanding, say, raw translation, biased interpretation, finally bad mood of Ažubalis himself if he, say, did say exactly such words, but even if it was pronounced - what sense of that? I personally don't care, i'm not a politician, but a regular citizen, and i really don't care what Ažubalis did or didn't say. His job is to talk. However, here is something familiar to me. It's a situation when some people, usually in the rural areas, don't speak the state language (it's useful to speak and understand it when one need read some official document, or to write it down, or to deal with the officials who don't know polish or russian - generally it is rather usefull). So, sometimes parents (and sometimes local politicians) insist that learning lithuanian language is needless and encourages a young person to stay with Polish or/and Russian ONLY, because in the area they live in the polish population prevail and thus they don't need to make that extra effort (i.e. to learn some lithuanian). Naturally, Ažubalis stated that that "someone" (eg parents) is robbing him of the possibility to compete on the job market. Or do you disagree? Note, that the journal is "Warsaw BUSINESS journal" and to write all this in that journal makes sense. So, if there was some .. ehhhrr.. say, laziness to care about the proper translation, then we have the situation what we have ;) .

But there also is a bright side of this story: you, guys, have extra reason to blame these bloody litwins - so go on, go on, blame us, bastards, blame :D . Aren't you proper Poles? Can you trust me, a bloody peasant from this shi++y hole? Of course not, there CAN'T be even doubt - you can't trust me - so, just ignore me and keep on blaming my bloody nation of ignorant peasants :D . As "proper Poles" always do :D. Sorry, i warned you: i am in a good mood, so be kind and don't be very angry ;). Just a little bit, as usually... ;)

Only brothers can see through each other <3

I think both nations is pissed over loosing their former lands. And noone of us wants to admit our faults in the system of the commonwealth.

Anyway i would rather see both the Poles and Lithuanians to respect each others people in a civilized way.

I am sorry, bracie Litwinie, but it's your people constanly moaning and talking idiotic crap
about the Commonwealth Era being the time of "Polish occupation." Read my post no. 10
in this thread and tell me if I am wrong.

Nobody thinks of Lithuanians as of "bastards" here. More as of a completely confused people,
stuck with 19th century nationalism in the year 2010 (again, read this thread and you will
understand Polish, common-sense, point of view on the matter of Polish-Lithuanian relations.)


Our nations were in a union together for centuries, and we are more similar to each other
than we would like to admit (especially Lithuanian people, with their funny pretentions
of being more of a "Scandinavian" country, LOL, than having anything to do with those
Poles-Slavs :)).


We're not angry, but we are sad. Sad and dissapointed, when we see the contempt with
which you throw away the hand that we are reaching out to you, and when we observe
how our minority is treated in your country. At the moment, it is only sadness and dissapoinment.
However, this sadness and disappointment can change into something else, if your politicians
will still refuse to wise up, and grant Polish minority all the rights that they are entitled
to (based on bilateral agreements between Lithuania and Poland, and the European Union laws.)

Your choice, really. We can only observe what your choice will be (and, eventually, react accordingly.)

After what happened it's kinda understandable.
Hm, it looks like it will take a little longer to build the United States of Europe.


Lithuanians were called a nation of peasants and small minded people, post #50, #52, #57, #78


maybe because Lithuanians are not Slavs? (Just an observation)


I hope you guys won't start another war or something. To avoid conflict, it would be much easier to tell all Poles to come back to Poland. (suggestion)

Not "bastards" though.



They're not Scandinavians either.


Of course not.


Suggestion? You are actually suggesting the ethnic cleansing of Poles in Lithuania?

Unbelievable...

They mistrust Poland because they fear that Poland will.. do what, exactly? Launch a morning raid into Lithuania to take over Wilno again? Yeah, right. I'm sure NATO & EU would just sit by and watch. It's patently clear to everyone that no borders will change in Central Europe in the next ~100 years, because no sane person wants to light up that powder keg again, as in 1914 or 1939. Do they fear Poland as a "proxy" of Russia? Give me a break. Poland has been on hostile terms with Russia since 1989, the relations have been improving only recently. During those 20 years of bad PL/RU relations Lithuania still could not be bothered to put up bilingual signs in majority-Polish towns. In the same 20 years Poland managed to put up Polish/German signs in the Opole area, Polish/Cassubian signs near Puck, and Polish/Lithuanian signs around Suwalki. If Lithuanians act this way because they're afraid of something, what is it specifically that they fear? Or is it all a nasty repeat of Bandera/OUN/Ponary-type mentality?

that too


true, they're not


You misunderstood me. What I tried to say is that anything would be better than starting another war, don't you think?

Great post, Sandman.

Sorry, bracie, i have read all topic - but did you read my post No 80? My people are talking idiotic crap because they are idiots. Don't deal with idiots - and you won't hear any idiotic crap. These others, who are not idiots, also are "my people" :) .

Secondly, why you obsessed with those old fassioned ideas about PL-LT conflicts? Lithuanians are proud about time of Rzecpospolita, unless you dealing exclusively with complete ignorants. It's your choice whom to deal with. And it's you who constatnly insist that lithuanians produce such attitude and such ideas. Why do you think litwins think about polaks as arogantic ones? Because there's no obvious or reasonable reason for such arogance ;) There's no even any reason for quarrels. And thus it seems that you are blaming us for this and that for no reason. So we just start to think that our neighbours are arogantic by nature. That can be ok too. And here is an example: you insist me to read you post No 10, but did you read my post no 80? :D

As for the rights of minorities - this is politics, and i'm not a politician, how can i resolve your problem? To tell you what i see around here na Litwie? But it won't solve any thing in any way :D. Morover - i told about that notorious "spelling case" in my notorious post No 80 :D . And i told that the problem is not solved. So do you see the reason to blame, say, regular citizens like me for this still unsolved problem? How can it help to solve it? It is in process. Nobody say any excuses, neither cheap nor any - it's too late for any excuses and it was too late already 10 years ago, but it is not your problem, it is our problem and disgrace and everybody know that. I assume, Poles know that too? I mean, you "must" know that, because you're interested in this case? So you must know: it's still in process of resolving. So what is wrong with that? You want it to make quicker - everybody want it to be quicker, even our politicians, so it is not a pleasant situation, but why keep on telling the crap which was common in, say, interwar period? By "you" i don't mean polish politicians - your politicians are ok, Polish politics is ok, we are very glad and satisfied with everything Poland does for itself and in general - generally poland is the best neighbour we have and ever had. Other neighbours, even if they are not bad, are not that reliable. It's not 1920 nor 1930. It's you, who constantly insist, that Litwins live in the past, and it's you who put those oldfashioned ideas to our mouths, and it's you who are blaming that litwins don't respect you. You, but not your politicians. I don't care about polish politicians, about Polish politics - i just trust Poland. And everybody na Litwie trust Poland. Even ignorants and idionts, no matter what they say and what they think, in deep they trust Poland too. And it is you who talk crap about our history, along with our lithuanian idiots, who also like to express their ignorance hidden under their overgrown selfishness. Did you read my post No 80 ? :DDD I told there, that i won't argue with you on historic issues - and i won't. Keep on thinking what you want. BTW, our history is simply interesting an full of very diverse details (including everything you have said here) - so i just don't want to spoil this interesting thing :) And, as i said, our historians HAVE NO quarrels. There is no what to quarrel about - it's too interesting to be obsessed with some quarrels or oldfashioned ideas.

So, taking my viewpoint into account, what should i think about you? It seems to me that you want to fight for the false reasons. Or for no reasons. Just, it would be good to kick their asses - and that is enough, why to care about reasons? :D Any reason is good if you want to kick someone's ass - false or proper, doesn't matter ;) .

Fair enough :)


You are the first Lithuanian I've EVER heard saying such thing. Maybe there is still
hope for Lithuania and Poland :)


Exert some pressure on your politicians - it's democracy, they will have to listen (or don't
vote for them next time.) Simple as that.


Oh, come on - how long does it take to pass a law? Or to properly execute the already
existing laws? "It is in process" - weak, very weak excuse. Especially that as you said
yourself...


...and it is still "in process", right?


Everything I said are either things I've heard from Lithuanians on internet fora or from
direct talks with them (the Polish "occupation", Polish "stealing Lithuanian history" - whatever
was that supposed to mean) or pure historical facts - nothing else.


Well, that's your problem really, not mine. What you do is more important. Did you do anything
about improving the situation of Polish minority in your country, e.g. did you talk to your local
Member of Parliament, did you write to any Lithuanian newspaper about it - as a concerned
citizen, did you call a radio show - to defend the violated rights of Poles in Lithuania?
If you did any of the aforementioned things, then fair play to you. If you didn't, then why
should I care what you think, if you're not actually doing anything?


I just want Polish minority in Lithuania to enjoy exactly the same rights as Lithuanian
minority enjoys in Poland. Nothing more.

Nobody na Litwie are against that. And your information, as it seems now, is false indeed. False in essence, not in some concrete issues. Nobody deny any rights - "the rights of Polish minorities" is sort of a short hint about the whole list of the very different aspects. Nobody urge you to know all aspects and everything about everything. If you are genuinely interested - go on and find out everything by yourself, any person is free to do that.

Why are you so surprised about those 10 years? I thought, once you firmly state ultimate truths about everything related to Lithuania, you should know why those 10 years, what those 10 years and how those 10 years. It's me, who is surprised why you (Poles, i mean) suddenly decided to raise this question today :D. Why not a month ago, why not 3 months ago, why not tomorrow? Simply there is no reason for that.

As for "that" law about spelling - are you pretending, or are you just expressing your arrogance in such way? I assume, you know, that Polish spelling is not a major problem, - a problem is a spelling of the FOREIGN names, and polish names are rather small part of it, and actually they are not so very foreign and not so very different, but they fall under same cathegory of the foreign names. There are more problems with, say, Baltic lithuanian names mixed with the names of some other languages, official names of foreign cities in the official lithuanian documents and how it complies with the constitution. It's not a law. It's a complicated problem. But it's not your problem. However, if you have too much time and don't know what to do with it - ok, do care about it :D

If it was about the spelling of ONLY Polish names - it would be solved within 5 minutes. OK, say, 5 months. And that was expected and promissed. But turned out, it's much deeper shi+ :D. And of course we are very glad to hear how our neigbours help us in this situation :D Thanks, brothers, you are big, i am small :D, now i know my proper place :D . It helps me a lot, everything will be done much quicker :D .

BTW, i'm very impressed with the sources of your information :D . Come to Wilno market place, you will hear what you even never ever dreamed about - how shi++y Litwa is and what a piece of shi+ our Sejm is :D. From lithuanians, not from local polaks :D. Yeah, streets, squares (especially train station and bus station), public toilets (suggestion), internet forums - all are really reliable places to gather information, say, about Lithuania :D. Guys, read russian forums - you will learn more within 10 minutes than you have learned during all life ;) . I actually am fed up with that ;)

Very well then, let's mention one, very concrete issue - bilingual signs. Why were they
removed from the areas where they were previously installed? What is the essential
reason for Lithuanian authorities to deny Poles the right to those bilingual signs (while
Lithuanians in Poland have theirs.)


Gee - I don't know. Maybe the thin, red line of our patience was crossed just recently?
Maybe, finally after all those years we ran out of patience? Maybe we are sick and tired
of listening to the same old excuses all the time? Maybe that's why our politicians finally
reacted? I don't know - you would have to ask our politicians and diplomats why they
chose to act more confidently just now.


Good! I take your word for it! :)


We do every now and again. A rather unpleasant activity, I must say.


Hey, aren't we all fed up with it? Of course we are, but we must continue our Internet
struggle, as all Internet fighters do for their countries ;)

Why do you ask about it? :D . Once you firmly know the right reason - then you know it :D . Not you personally - once you're born Polish and Litwa is involved - you know everything and much better than others :D . And who am i? A reliable litwin - are you sane at all? :D There is no such thing at all, in the nature :D. You simply have no right to trust ANY litwin, simply because you have no such right (maybe by God) :D .

Nobody are against bilingual signs, in essence. It's a law problem which leads to the same "spelling case". It is same and 1 problem, and it is not a problem about minorities, but about ... hell, i don't even know how to name it, it's a broad complex of different aspects, i already mentioned some previously, but be aware, that i am quite indifferent on this, because for me personally it is not interesting. Simply, there was and is so much information about it (na Litwie, i mean), that it is impossible not to know.

BTW, those bilingual signs appeared some 3 years ago, or so. Don't remember exactly when. But i remember another thing, which also should be known for you - for you all, who care so much about our polaks: election :) . The fact is that our Polish "peasants" work, and our Polish politicians (in local elderships) rule :D . Though it's not very funny. Next truth is that money for election comes from Poland (in various ways) . That is OK. Moreover, some of polish schools, infrastructure, etc, are built for the money received from Poland or partially for EU money. That is very good and this is not a waste of money: one can see all that in nearly any larger village around Wilno - good, new and shiny school is polish school, and a crappy small old school is lithuanian school - and lithuanians of course constantly complain (not about poles, but about our government). And there is 1 more thing, mostly at the level of rumours: a part of polish money lands in the pockets of these politicians. But any part of these money don't reach any regular Polak, who live here, with the small exception: regular Polak must vote for this politician :) . Then everything is OK. And it sems, that it is easier to receive money from Poland when there is some issues with the Polish minorities na Litwie. So why, do you think, litwins sometimes dislike local Poles? Not because they get money from Poland, but because they use tricks to create artificial "problems". In case with the bilingual signs the order of the events was like that: first there occure issue with the spelling of Polish names on the documents, it was some 10 years ago, after some time turned out that the problem is deeper, and there was officially explained over TV that (among other) names of the streets fall under same cathegory. Next - bilingual street names occured, right before the election :D .

What can i say, we will have election to local eldeships and municipalities next year in February. Money is needed. Let's start the war, then lituanian Polaks will live as they never did, but don't forget, that regular Polaks only work, and their politicians only rule and don't work ;)

I hope you realize that the above fragment of your post makes very little sense.


Erm... OK: it is same problem and not the problem about minorities but a complex of apects
and you mentioned some, there is so much information, but you don't know how to name it.
Did I understand you correctly? :D
Sweet Jaysus wept, Litwinus! You must be some sort of a philosopher. I am only a simple
engineer and I am unable to understand a word of the above.


So? You have GDP per capita almost as high as we do - build your own shiny schools
and stop moaning.


Was that supposed to shock me? That is EXACTLY how things are in Poland as well :)

Translation:

Poles like to feel superior to Lithuanians and throw their weight around as if they were gods and they don't have that right.


Translation:

The bilingual signs was a political tool to get the Polish vote in Lithuania. The problem is that any foreign language with non-Lithuanian characters in the alphabet is too complicated for our archaic and backwards bureaucracy to figure out.

Even though this is a non-issue for everyone else, this is Lithuania! Anyway I think this issue is boring.


I doubt that.

Edit*

31 Lithuania 39 47 36
12 Poland 425 528 423

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

I said: per capita.

I find that hard to believe too.

Edit*
Is this (Wiki) where you got that from?

Here...


cia.gov

So what's the problem :)

In one word? Inequality.

Or maybe "imbalance", "unfairness" or "lack of symmetry" would be better descriptions?

Polish minority in Lithuania doesn't enjoy the same rights that Lithuanian minority in Poland
enjoys. Simple as that. And, to be honest, it is not really important if that's because of
"backwards bureaucracy" or any other reason - the facts remain the same.

I have nothing against Lithuania or Lithuanians in general. I only worry about my fellow
Poles (or Polaks, as you call them) who, according to many articles in Polish press
(including "Tygodnik Powszechny" - a very respectable weekly magazine), are facing
difficulties from local bureaucracy and authorities (be it with educational issues, spelling
their names or bilingual signs.)

Ethnocentric fuker.
You signed up just to instigate a fight?

Again, showing how small minded your peasant nation is... Too bad the days of old are past. It would be nice to invade your meaningless country and change the signs ourselves.

Well, it is slightly annoying - that "Polaks" plural form. If someone wants to write
in English, then the plural should be "Poles." If one prefers to use Polish instead, then
he should know that "Polacy" is the proper plural form of the word "Polak."

I am totally against creating such linguistic monsters as "Polaks" as it is butchering both
languages: Polish AND English.

I don't mind the use of the word "Polak" at all, as it simply means "a Pole" in Polish, but the form

"Polack" is equally annoying as "Polaks" (for the same reasons.)

*to tak na marginesie ;)*

The use of "Polack" for me is a way of saying "an exceptionally stupid Polak" :)

(wonder where it originated from?)

Why aren't they fighting it in the European courts?