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Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.


hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
24 Oct 2010 #61
Just replace the words Lithuania and Lithuanian with Poland and Polish in the text below (last two paragraphs) and you'll probably will have an eerie sense of recognition.

I have no idea of what you are talking about.
Bolle 1 | 147
24 Oct 2010 #63
Poles have lived in what is now lithuania for quite some time therefore they deserve some protection - just like germans living in western poland or sorbs in eastern germany.

No they didn't, they were independent before the commonwealth.

He didn't say they weren't independent prior to the commonwealth.

This again? Lithuania was eaten up by Russia, it was in the U.S.S.R, remember?

He's referring to the time long before the creation of the ussr.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
24 Oct 2010 #64
He didn't say they weren't independent prior to the commonwealth.

Independence? The lithuanians gained independence and Culture from Poland

He's referring to the time long before the creation of the ussr.

So you happily jump the modern parts of history because they don't suit your view.
How convenient for you.
rabidbavib - | 20
24 Oct 2010 #65
Ive just got back from holiday in lit. and found only a very small percentage of (nice) young people spoke english so we had to speak polish to get/do stuff. You could tell by the dryness of their attitudes that the didnt really want to. But happily spoke russian. I really have no idea why they joined the EU apart from developement funds, taking money from people you dont like isnt how a proud nation acts.
Bolle 1 | 147
24 Oct 2010 #66
So you happily jump the modern parts of history because they don't suit your view.
How convenient for you.

He was specifically talking about a past event which had nothing to do with more recent history. Just stay on topic.
1jola 14 | 1,879
24 Oct 2010 #67
One could look at this differently. Lithuania has recently stood up for Belarus which is at odds with Russia at the moment. Sikorski criticizes Lithuania, and the minority problem ia not new so why now, thus scoring points with Putin. This government's willingness to suck up to Russia again is very disturbing.

BTW, Sikorski has a new squeeze:
David_18 68 | 982
24 Oct 2010 #68
No they didn't, they were independent before the commonwealth.

You think i don't know that? I meant that they would have lost their independence if they wouldn't have joined the union due to the fact that Moscow was planing an invasion and were making a huge threat to the Lithuanian duchy.

This again? Lithuania was eaten up by Russia, it was in the U.S.S.R, remember?

I was talking about during that time. Not 200 years later.

You are wrong.

Am i? it was a wooden city before the poles came in and started to build up the city from the ground.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
24 Oct 2010 #69
it was a bit like the Union between England and Scotland

I can't tell how the nowadays Scottish feel about their "Union" with England, Wales and N.Ireland but what the Lithuanians told me, it was nothing else but occupation (at least since Jagiello was a king of Poland). Before Jagiello there was no problems between Lithuania and Poland.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
24 Oct 2010 #70
Ive just got back from holiday in lit. and found only a very small percentage of (nice) young people spoke english so we had to speak polish to get/do stuff. You could tell by the dryness of their attitudes that the didnt really want to. But happily spoke russian.

It depends on who you speak to.
Polish and Russian are considered the same language by Lithuanians.
Generally from my experience, I would say Russian and Polish Lithuanians get on better with each other than they do with the Lithuanians themselves.

He was specifically talking about a past event which had nothing to do with more recent history.

He was calling the Grand Duchy of Lithuania barbarians before they were Polanised.
Asserting how great Poland was to help them and how thankful Lithuanian should be.

They were the biggest country in Europe, it was a bilateral agreement which benefited both parties.

And why should this topic have nothing to do with more recent history?

I meant that they would have lost their independence

And Poland also benefited.

it was a wooden city before the poles came in and started to build up the city from the ground.

It was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania spanning from the black sea to the Baltic sea.

map
jwojcie 2 | 763
24 Oct 2010 #71
And the Poland and Russia thing is hardly comparable. I don't remember Poland acquiescing and abandoning its language and culture in favor of Russian culture and language. If they had, i would be to embarrassed to admit to being a Pole, as I find Russia embarrassing and semi-civillised.

Poland no, but a lot of Poles yes. Anyway, I didn't imply the same amount of bulling. I rather meant kind of perspective. Poland to Lithuania is about 12:1 in population and GDP terms. It is small country almost not existent in Polish media except of some history related stuff. Regardless of our view of it we had military conflict with them even in XX century. So, I wonder if they view Poland the same as Poland views Russia, and if Poland looks so arogant in eyes of Lithuanians as Russia does in Polish eyes sometimes... That would explain a lot..

It is no coincidence that some of the last representatives of the Radziwills reside in Poland

Yes, and it is also not coincidence that part of Radziwills familly supported Swedes in wars with Poland in XVII. Terms of union of 1569 really didn't go well with Lithuanians

Independence? The lithuanians gained independence and Culture from Poland. Without Poland they would have been eaten by the russians.

Sorry mate, but it is fourth grade history approach. It is kind of attitude which goal is to form a perfect motherland loving Pole. I made that chapter too, Lech, Czech and Rus, Great Kingdom of Poland etc. It has some charm and maybe is important to keep society together, but later it is time to get over it and see history from different angles. Not to deny your own history, but to understand the view of it of your neighbours. And I'm telling you they don't see Commonwealth as a great success after 1569 and they have good reasons. Imagine this that it is not Kingdom of Poland who had an upper hand then but Duchy of Lithuania, imagine that it is not Kingdom of Poland who gets big chank of Ukraine but instead Duchy of Lithuania gets Masovia, Podlaskie, Lubelskie and Podkarpackie. How would you like that? Would you still think that this union of 1569 was such a great deal? I don't think so. As for those rights to their nobility, in modern terms we would call it political corruption...

Well, I kind of felt that those history thing will make some fire here ;) But in fact it has not much to do with current issues:

- they should comply with EU minority laws
- they should solve property issues
- Możejki issue should be resolved one way or another, because apart from that it brings us as a Polish taxpayers losses, it also will undermine our relations. Orlen is to big to igore it (it's market capitalization on Polish stock exchange is about 1/11 of GDP (PPP) of Lithuania). This issue cann't stay in limbo forever.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
24 Oct 2010 #72
The problem in this whole debate is that most of the countries are teaching different history and that's why we'll never come to any agreement here. What makes it even worse is that no one really wants to open up to the "facts" presented by someone who learned history from different books. The biggest damage in Polish history of course is caused by the communism and most of you guys here (I mean Poles) obviously follow what you've learned at school and no one can really blame you for that. It's a same with us too. To accept it and to live with the differences is just about the only thing we all can do for right now. Another suggestion would be to avoid all historical topics because we will never come to any conclusion which would satisfy both sides anyway.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
24 Oct 2010 #73
You are overlooking one "tiny" problem here. That wouldn't benefit Poland and would ethnically cleanse Poles from traditionally
Polish areas on Kresy. Not the best of your ideas, Grzegorz.

Not really.
1. Out of these 2 million jobless people, no more than half are really jobless, the rest either work illegally or don't want to work. If only a rule that one has to either be legally employed (or be a child/husband/wife of somebody legally employed) or has to have a status of a jobless person to get access to free health care was revoked, at least 200-300k "jobless" people would immediately disappear.

2. There's a huge regional diversity in case of unemployment rate in Poland. Some areas have a very high unemployment rate but in others It's much easier to find a job than in most of Western Europe, some people are moving there from poorer areas but many can't due to family situation etc.

3. Demographic trends. A few years ago the situation on the labor market was very difficult as the generation of "baby boom" from early 80's was seriously increasing the size of work force and despite many new jobs being created, the unemployment rate was growing, that was also the reason why "exodus" was so huge but It's over, since 2 year more people have been coming back than moving out. Now the situation is drastically changing, soon many more people will be getting retired every year than joining the labor market. Even with modest economic growth we will be running out of wrokers in 10 years, with high growth It will happen no later than in 5 years.

What's then ? Import Pakistanis ? No, thank you. I would much more preffer Polish speaking people from ex-Soviet Union.

It was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania spanning from the black sea to the Baltic sea.

They seized all those lands after they were riuned by Mongol invasions. They didn't have enough manpower to keep them on their own for too long. If you compare the potential (economy, military etc.) of Poland and Grand Dutchy in that time It is at least 2:1 for Poland.

I'm not saying that they should be eternally grateful for the union, It was a win-win situation for both side and that's how It is now treated by Polish history. It's them, who talk sh*t about "Polish occupation".
David_18 68 | 982
24 Oct 2010 #74
Yes, and it is also not coincidence that part of Radziwills familly supported Swedes in wars with Poland in XVII. Terms of union of 1569 really didn't go well with Lithuanians

Only reason they wanted to be a vassal state of Sweden was to gain control over Lithuania. And actually not many members supported it, they saw it as a betrayal to their country the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

but later it is time to get over it and see history from different angles.

Iv'e been doing that the couple of years and my conclusion is very simple. Most of the szlachta were polonised and lived very happy untill P-L Commonwealth got divided. The peasants is another question. The ones in Poland had it good while the ones in Ukraine suffered more and the in Belarus and Lithuania it was also a bad situation since the Lithuanian Magnates Suppresed the peasants to gain maximum Profit. But all this changed of course duruing the late 18th century with the constituion and such.

Imagine this that it is not Kingdom of Poland who had an upper hand then but Duchy of Lithuania, imagine that it is not Kingdom of Poland who gets big chank of Ukraine but instead Duchy of Lithuania gets Masovia, Podlaskie, Lubelskie and Podkarpackie. How would you like that?

That would only mean a landloss for the magnates in those areas and maybe not even that since the Szlachta from all over the commonwealth owned land little everywhere in the Commonwealth. Polish was just a word that the Szlachta used as a status symbol.

As for those rights to their nobility, in modern terms we would call it political corruption...

And that we can see everywhere in the world. Can't really see a big difference on a Polish magnate and a Industrial baron in the US.

They seized all those lands after they were riuned by Mongol invasions. They didn't have enough manpower to keep them on their own for too long. If you compare the potential (economy, military etc.) of Poland and Grand Dutchy in that time It is at least 2:1 for Poland.

You took the words out of my mouth, enough said!
Sandman 3 | 28
26 Oct 2010 #75
I'm puzzled by Lithuanians who apparently see the Commonwealth as Polish "occupation." Someone here posted a map of GDL's expansion in the 14th century. What's striking on that map is that the ethnically Lithuanian area makes up maybe 20% of that GDL, tops. The remaining 80% is land taken from Ruthenians (today's Belorusians/Ukrainians). This map was posted to illustrate how "great" GDL was before the Commonwealth.

My question: why is it that when Lithuania expands east it's seen as "greatness" of the GDL, but when Poland expands east it suddenly becomes an "occupation" of GDL? By this logic, wasn't the 14th cent. GDL nothing more than a Lithuanian occupation of ethnically Ruthenian lands? Why are the 15-18th cent. Poles "occupiers", but the 14th cent. Lithuanians are not? The only difference I see here is in who's doing the "occupying".

Something here reeks of hypocrisy...
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Oct 2010 #76
Yes, a perfectly valid point.

Here is some extra background to the story
wbj.pl/article-51784-poland-and-lithuania-war-over-words.ht ml?typ=ise
Apparently Sikorski says he will not visit Lithuania until the issue is resolved.
Borrka 37 | 594
26 Oct 2010 #77
Polish and Russian are considered the same language by Lithuanians.

Yep and Lithuanian cows use to fly when summer evening comes
.

it was a bilateral agreement which benefited both parties

Time to decide: a win win situation or occupation LOL

It was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania spanning from the black sea to the Baltic sea.

Oh really ?
And I see Ukrainian lands only and a tiny nest of Lithuanian occupants in the North.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Oct 2010 #78
hague1cmaeron

I note that some of the stuff from the Lithuanian side in this article is downright stupid and in some cases bordering on racism. Particularly this extract

Caustic language from Lithuania's leading politicians has served to exacerbate the situation. TVP reports that Lithuania's Foreign Minister, Audronius Ažubalis, stated: “Someone that encourages a young person to study Polish is robbing him of the possibility to compete on the job market. He's shortchanging him because later on at most he may be a help on a building site.”

From the comment I take it that most Lithuanians are incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time. Than again I do not see how the Polish language can disadvantage anyone, after all Lithuanian was abandoned in favor of Polish by their own nobility-and it did not disadvantage them in any way, on the contrary.

Mr Audronius Ažubalis should take this into account and consider Languages other than his peasant's dialect.

Sadly these are the consequences of people being throughly brainwashed by Soviet history, and at one time counting on soviet support to preserve the peasant's republic of Lithuania.
convex 20 | 3,978
26 Oct 2010 #79
“Someone that encourages a young person to study Polish is robbing him of the possibility to compete on the job market. He's shortchanging him because later on at most he may be a help on a building site.”

Do you know what the context of this sentence is? The article doesn't give much.
Litwinus - | 7
26 Oct 2010 #80
I'm puzzled by Lithuanians who apparently see the Commonwealth as Polish "occupation." .... Poles "occupiers", but the 14th cent. Lithuanians are not? The only difference I see here is in who's doing the "occupying".

Something here reeks of hypocrisy...

Why do you say "you're puzzled" and why do you say that "lithuanians are not"? The only difference here is in who's doing the occupying, and that is not what you see, but what there was in fact, at least at lithuanian viewpoint. No surprise if you're puzzled.

Secondly, you (all posters in here, i mean) talk about "lithuanians who treat the Poles like occupiers" - but it was said by one of non-lithuanian poster as an example of some kind of lithuanian attitude. So what? Any war in the middle ages was an occupation, more or less, and lithuanians, OF COURSE, aware that they were occupiers in the Ruthenian lands. So what? It's you, who deny that :D .

Lithuanians say that the Commonwealth meant that Poland occupied GDL? I can't guarantee that some lithuanians didn't say that, or some don't think so. So what? Don't deal with idiots and you won't hear such or similar nonsenses. I'm not a historian, btw, so i don't and won't argue with you, anyway, i'm a guest here and don't want to litter the discussion ;)

Basically, i'm not quite sure, what "PL-LT diplomatic war" you are talking about ? :) . Is this about that article in PL massmedia? I didn't read it, and there were no any bad articles in LT mass media, at least recently - but i believe you know all that better than me... So, if it's all about the spelling of the FOREIGN names - this problem is not solved yet. So what? It's our problem, not yours, it was expected it will be easy to solve it already several years ago - turned out it's more difficult for us than we expected. You losing your patience? We lost it already many years ago, because it's quite annoying to have such problem - it's not a problem for Poles, it is a problem for lithuanians of the Baltic origin (and of course for lithuanians of Polish origin, and of course for some foreigners) - just you don't need to care about these other aspects, because you'e Poles or live in Poland. You have to care about people of Polish origin and you do that. That's OK. I just make some hints in order to remind you the complete picture, you aware about it, of course, i just try to put my words into a certain context for better understanding, as i'm not sure about my english;)...

So back about wars. All aspects about the "spelling case" are known by polish politicians. Everybody aware about everything and there no quarrels between PL and LT politicians. About "Orlen LT". It's business, and LT government declared many times that it has no intent to cut in into any business. LT government didn't help americans, who owned Mažeikiai Oil previously, it didn't help russians who owned it later, it is not going to help now. It even didn't help lithuanians who owned it before those notorious americans. It don't help LT railway company who has issues with Orlen. Though LT Rails don't have issues with PL Rails :D .

So what, basically, this is about? You, like russians, just want to fight? Come on, we are used to it, just read russian bloggers what they're writting about LT.... you shoud know that because they are writting same or similar things about PL :D We're used to it :) . Do you want to prove that you're just same as those emperic russians? Prove, no problem. I firmly believe, that it won't be a reason to start a war, say, between LT and PL historians. So far, there was no quarrels between them, quite opposite :D . But, if someone prefer to deal with idiots - no problem, we have enough our own idiots in LT, of all origins :D. Poland, i believe, don't have any ;).
Sandman 3 | 28
26 Oct 2010 #81
a young person [who studies] Polish later on at most he may be a help on a building site

Wasn't there a Lithuanian guy called Jogaila who learned Polish and went on to become a king? It's a tragedy that no one warned him in time that with his Polish skills he can only end up on a construction site.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Oct 2010 #82
Sandman

Indeed, but I am afraid that Lithuanians like Jogaila now call themselves Poles and Live in Poland or elsewhere. Unfortunately there no people like Jogaila resident in Lithuania anymore.

Do you know what the context of this sentence is? The article doesn't give much.

It's from the website I have posted above, as to the actual context of the sentence, I am not quite sure what it relates to. Although whether intentional or not, and I am guessing that the context is quite secondary to the actual quote, it is a really careless thing to say for a politician.
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
26 Oct 2010 #83
I have never heard such Antisemitic comments as I did in Lithuania, it blew my mind, especially given the history.

So I guess you were a Lithuanian living in Vilnius before the war right?
.... and those Litvak Jews, they are so liked... they the ones that formed a ANTI-ZIONIST organisation called Naturei karta , and kept on popping up with nazi like rabbis who were against other Jews -

its liked they learned the arrogance from the Lithuanians....
convex 20 | 3,978
26 Oct 2010 #84
It's from the website I have posted above, as to the actual context of the sentence, I am not quite sure what it relates to. Although whether intentional or not, and I am guessing that the context is quite secondary to the actual quote, it is a really careless thing to say for a politician.

Context means everything. Do they mean teaching in Polish? Or Polish as a second language?
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
26 Oct 2010 #85
Polish High Schools in a long belt on along the border which is full of Polish speaking lithuanians, and them litvaks just want to Lithuanize the Polish speakers.

why cant they be like Latvians, even in Daugavpils/Dyneburg there is a Jewish high school, Polish high schools and Russian ones of course. and heaps of other towns not to mention Riga.

Estonians I can understand... they just too nazi. THey hate slavs and baltic people the same.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
26 Oct 2010 #86
So I guess you were a Lithuanian living in Vilnius before the war right?

No.
I lived in Lithuania a few years ago.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
26 Oct 2010 #87
Lithuanian minority, much smaller has all those rights in Poland, Polish minority the largest in that country doesn't, both EU countries, that is discrimination, Lithuanians claim it's to protect themselves from being assimilated, the Polish and Russian minority are about 6.5% each give or take, i doubt there gonna assimilate the Lithuanians, Lithuania isn't occupied by any nation it's a free EU state, there is no threat to its sovereignty or national identity. If Poland gives the Lithuanians full minority rights Lithuania should also., not use some cheap excuses.


grubas 12 | 1,391
26 Oct 2010 #88
There is only 2816000 Lithuenians living in Lithuenia,why not move there 40000000 Poles thru goverment sponsored action,then elect Poles to the goverment and get ourselves a little vasal within 10 years.Peacefully.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
26 Oct 2010 #89
Ive just got back from holiday in lit. and found only a very small percentage of (nice) young people spoke english so we had to speak polish to get/do stuff.

Strange, when we were in Poland, we've met a group of 6 young Lithuanians and they all spoke pretty good English.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
26 Oct 2010 #90
One thing about Lithuanians is that they are fairly multilingual when it comes down to it.
Most speak other languages, usually Russian, Polish, English or German as well as Lithuanian.

According to the Lithuanian population census of 2001, about 84% of the country's population speak Lithuanian as their native language, 8.2% are the native speakers of Russian, 5.8% - of Polish. More than 60% are fluent in Russian, while only about 16% say they can speak English. According to the Eurobarometer survey conducted in 2005, 80% of Lithuanians can speak Russian and 32% can speak English. Most Lithuanian schools teach English as a first foreign language, but students may also study German, or, in some schools, French or Russian. Schools where Russian and Polish are the primary languages of education exist in the areas populated by these minorities.

/wiki/Lithuania#Genetics


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