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Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar



TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Oct 2017  #61

What German territory? All of these lands had been Polish.

Not going to fly. From whom did the Poles take these lands many centuries ago? Want to pay war reparations to Neanderthals? See what I'm saying?

shedding your liberal, progressive front to present us with your German nationalism

Running out of arguments again, Mr. Ironside? No matter how hard you try to bend the truth and rewrite history, the territories east of the Oder-Neisse line were legally German before WW2. Why isn't Poland suing Russia for war reparations when it's supposedly only about "making things right"? They attacked Poland together with the Germans, and they took your land in the east.

PiS are stirring shi*t again as usual, that's all there is to it.


Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #62

That's because it's far easier to get Germany, an EU member nation, to pay than Russia. Second, Russia was technically at the end in the Allies despite their double crossings and treachery. It's about what's practical - not what's ideal.

We're talking about WW2 which ended roughly 72 years ago. During WW2 detailed records were kept and there is a lot of evidence - we're not talking about wars and battles from centuries ago where there is little to no physical evidence nor proof of who died and how many, who's homes were destroyed and not, etc. There's no photographs, typed documents, nor concentration camp ruins from battles like the Polish invasion of Moscow or the even the partitions.

It doesn't matter who's 'starting sh!t.' It's quite sad that you wouldn't want the sufferers and their families of WW2 where millions were killed, maimed, expelled, etc within just Poland alone to be given justice and some form of reparations for what they suffered. Other countries and peoples received reparations, we have not. If Germany gave Poles even half of what they gave to the Jews and Israel we'd be more than happy with that. I myself wouldn't get a penny and nor would anyone aside from maybe a few very old relatives and their descendants - nonetheless its the principle of justice and paying for wrongs. We only want what is fair and what others have already received and are continuing to receive. Germany just got done paying back their WW1 reparations a few years ago. Now that they're done with those they can start focusing on making up the remainder to the WW2 sufferers. Japan did the right thing to Korea, Germany did the right thing to the Jews, Greeks, etc. Now it's time they do the same to Poles.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Oct 2017  #63

During WW2 detailed records were kept and there is a lot of evidence ... who's homes were destroyed and not,

If Germany gave Poles even half of what they gave to the Jews

How much worth is the land that Poland annexed with the help of Stalin? How much worth are the hundreds of thousands of lives of the former inhabitants that got killed when the Russians and Poles deported them by force? Should we create a profit/ loss statement to see who owns whom how much? Get my drift? This whole discussion is getting us nowhere.
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #64

@TheOther
No, I don't see what you're saying. These lands were Polish before the partitions.
Bloody Poles killed Germans and Jews, huh?
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Oct 2017  #65

These lands were Polish before the partitions.

How long ago was that once again? You can't seriously argue that certain areas were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and then claim that these lands were and will always be Polish. Who owned these lands before Poles, Teutonic Knights, Prussians, Russians, Austrians and Germans showed up? Territory in Europe changed hands countless times over the millennia, so who owns what and why?

Bloody Poles killed Germans and Jews, huh?

Huh?
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #66

How much worth is the land that Poland annexed with the help of Stalin?

Idk. Maybe we can subtract that land value (despite the fact Poland owned 70k m2 of land in the interwar period than after WW2) from the millions of Poles who were forced into the Red Army, exiled to Siberia, had their land confiscated even if they were broke farmers as owning a small field or a few bags of grain would be enough to get you thrown in prison or even shot, died in Katyn or the gulags, as well as having a puppet government for 50 years with out government in exile living in London or Paris... We'd end up in the positive as you can see..

Actually it wasn't thanks to 'Stalin's altruism' that's for sure. The unfair deal that Poland received was a result of the Yalta Conference - Stalin, FDR, and Churchill with only Churchill truly protesting and demanding a fair deal for Poland, a democracy, fair elections, etc.

Also, France and Russia received German lands as well... As you know, Europe was divided into spheres of influence between the West and USSR with the 50 year cold war resulting as of that, along with 5 decades of puppet regimes for Poland. Yes, we'd love to get reparations for this - subtract the land fine - we'd still be in the black.

How much worth are the hundreds of thousands of lives of the former inhabitants that got killed when the Russians and Poles deported them by force?

Stalin's and the Allies orders based on negotiations in Yalta, Tehran, Paris, Moscow, etc. He demanded 4 million slave laborers. Stalin installed a puppet government in Poland that didn't represent the interests of the Poles at all. The Brits wanted to help Poland, especially Churchill (who was pretty vocal although took little action but at least had the guts and morality to launch Operation Unthinkable - aka 'a square deal for Poland'), but FDR didn't really care (he protested but also took no action) and they agreed to make the already installed commie puppet government more democratic although there was no way to enforce this and of course Stalin didn't care one bit about democracy. Churchill even asked Stalin to hold fair elections in Poland and his operation which unfortunately never took off sought to regain Poland from Stalin.

If the Germans didn't leave they'd end up in gulags (which many did anyway) or would be killed by Polish puppets at the orders of Russians and the UB - who would kill the Poles if they didn't comply. What would you do if someone put a gun in your hand and told you to kill the 'xyz-ist enermy scum in front of you' with a pistol to the back of your head? Many Poles had good relations with their German neighbors. Even the Polish 'volksdeutche' was put into camps or exiled. We were unable to resist this given the grave situation and utter destruction of the country in the years following WW2. Stalin and his bootlickers installed loyalists who killed AK members and other Poles who wanted to have a government that represents the people and not a puppet regime subservient to Moscow and Stalin. Among those killers are people like Michnik's brother, Solomon Morel, and much of the UB and especially their leadership. As the Kruschev thaw was taking hold across the USSR (especially in E Europe like in Hungary, Czechy, PL,, etc) and the crimes of the aforementioned individuals and people like them were exposed as well as the brutality of Stalinism with the result being the Polish October and later the March Events. Poles especially hated the Muscovites - the Polish Jews who left during the war, went to Moscow to kiss Stalin's a$$, and came back with the Red Army to enslave the Polish population and do all those things to Poles and Germans alike. These guys made Gomulka and Co. look like the good guys. Many of them assimilated and pretended to be Polish Catholics so as not to arouse suspicion, some emigrated to the West in the late 60's/70's, some went to Russia or the other parts of the USSR if they were considered loyal enough, etc. It didn't take long for the early Muscovites and Polish UB Jews to realize that even though Stalin earlier ordered them to be cruel to the Poles for being loyal to the AK and government in exile, it didn't necessarily mean they themselves wouldn't share the same fate - death, gulags, or be put in the middle of Siberia with an ax and a pack of matches and told to build a camp.

Anyway we're not talking about the Russians/USSR, we're talking about Germany. But yes, I would like Poland to receive reparations far more than from Germany as they've committed even more crimes against Poland and Poles for a far longer period too. Nonetheless, Poland is focusing on what is feasible at the moment which is obtaining reparations from Germany. Perhaps in the future, rapprochement between Poland and Russia will take place and perhaps reparations for things like Katyn will be part of that discussion. Till that happens, and the ball is in Russia's court to make the move if they want better relations as they can't blame us for being better, the situation between PL and RU will remain regardless of which government in PL is in charge. Perhaps if a more open minded, less 'Russian occupier' focused individual is leading Russia this may occur.
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #67

Yet claiming they were German is fine?
Despite their Polish populations?
Resettling Germans after the war wasn't all nice and kind. That's true. Neither was German treatment of ethnic Poles during the partitions or WW2.

What about the Lebensraum policy? The first expulsion of Poles took place in the 1880s. But the large scale expulsions of Poles affecting about two million people occured during the war. Didn't know about it? Yet you know about poor Germans resettled by Poles and Soviets.

How about German organisations that want repariations from Poland? Are you equally critical? Some of their members were Nazi officers.
And if you claim territories in Europe changed hands countless times, deal with the fact these lands are Polish now.
And it's people line The Other who talks about Poland being given 'German' lands and that 'favourite' poster of mine who keeps writing about Poles murdering Jews that make me feel that instead of money, Poland should get a chance to let the world know what Poles went through during the war.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Oct 2017  #68

As I tried to indicate earlier already: this whole issue is far more complicated than it looks at first glance. I do not believe that the Polish calls for war reparations is particularly helpful some 75 years after the fact and after having missed several opportunities to voice this demand. All it does is to create some bad blood and there is a real risk in my opinion that all the positive changes in the Polish-German relations that took decades to achieve will be wiped out if this continues. Just imagine PiS in power on one side of the border, and the AfD becoming the strongest party on the other. Nightmare scenario.

Yet claiming they were German is fine?

Yes, because they were the legal owners before WW2. International law didn't exist before the partitions for example.

And it's people...

If you are interested in a civil discussion, I would suggest you stop your childish insult attempts. Otherwise FO. Thanks for your cooperation.
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #69

Telling someone to fo is civil?
If you read my posts carefully, you would know I think any sort of financial repariations is silly.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Oct 2017  #70

If you read my posts carefully, you would know I think any sort of financial repariations is silly.

I questioned your argument that the former German territory cannot be counted as war reparations because the lands in question were Polish hundreds of years ago.

Telling someone to fo is civil?

Depends on how "someone" behaves...
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #71

I'm just a rude and crude Pole who tells what she thinks when someone has no enough information about Poland. And it seems so as you ignore the Polish history and populations of the lands in question.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Oct 2017  #72

And it seems so as you ignore the Polish history and populations of the lands in question.

I don't ignore history, Kaprys, I simply try not to use it as an excuse/ explanation for everything all the time.

I'm just a rude and crude Pole

No worries. I'm just a rude and crude Australian-American... ;)
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #73

@TheOther
No wonder our discussion is so crude.
I'm sorry if I seemed to straightforward but it seems the world doesn't know the Polish history. And behind all of it there are some personal histories, often full of personal tragedies.
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
11 Oct 2017  #74

all the positive changes in the Polish-German relations that took decades to achieve will be wiped out if this continues

This is exactly what PiS (or JK) wants. He wants Polish people to be isolated and look to him and PiS and AM for protection.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #75

Did you ever consider that perhaps the Poles agree with their policies and vision and that's what they want also for their country? PiS has more support than any other party by far - double than PO.
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
11 Oct 2017  #76

Did you ever consider that perhaps the Poles agree with their policies and vision and that's what they want also for their country?

To be isolated and despised and dependent on favors from the party leader? What a weird weird ambition....
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #77

I do not believe that the Polish calls for war reparations is particularly helpful some 75 years after the fact and after having missed several opportunities to voice this demand

This isn't the first time we've asked for reparations. As soon as Poland regained her independence and weren't under the heel of the Soviet masters we immediately asked for reparations. In the 90's, Poland didn't have near the economic nor political muscle and alliances it does now. This isn't the first few times we've asked for money for the destruction and death our ancestors faced.

AfD becoming the strongest party on the other. Nightmare scenario.

Actually, AfD, Pegida, the Identaires, etc. all have a lot of respect for Poland because we didn't allow our country to be cucked and invaded by Muslims.

All it does is to create some bad blood and there is a real risk in my opinion that all the positive changes in the Polish-German relations that took decades to achieve will be wiped out if this continues.

Germany wasn't even unified till 27 years ago and PL didn't enter the EU till 2004. Economic relationships are strong, but not political or social. Poles have always viewed Germany as the lesser evil in terms of Germany and Russia. Now Poles are very upset at Germany for putting us into this situation where we never asked to take in refugees but now are being obliged to take them in just because Merkel said come one come all.

The only time relations were good was when certain individuals within the Polish governments were more than happy to sell off parts of our economy off to Germans interested in creating monopolies in a new market. In return, Poles were happy to go to Germany to pick strawberries in the summer. Well, we don't need that anymore. Germany is declining (especially due to Merkel's flagellation of German society with inviting hordes of so called refugees from the 3rd world) while Poland and the V4 is growing more and more.

To be isolated and despised and dependent on favors from the party leader? What a weird weird ambition....

We're not dependent on favors from any party leader. You're confusing that with commie socialist PRL years.

Rather to keep their culture alive and not be replaced by people from the 3rd world. Poland has shown that we can keep our Christian conservative identity without accepting the destructive multiculturalism of the West. Our economy is growing at a faster pace, our wages are getting higher and higher, our tourism industry is booming, our property values are increasing every year, our unemployment rate is one of the lowest in Europe, our credit is excellent... I could go on and on about all the positive macro and microeconomic factors of Poland's economy. If that's 'isolation' well then let's keep going. Meanwhile every few day I seem to get more and more news on my feed of some company opening up jobs for 3k people here, a new trade deal there, a billion dollar car factory there, Moody's credit rating for PL increased yet again, etc.

Besides, WE - as in WE POLISH CITIZENS get to chose - not others for us. We're not going to return to PRL years where all our economic social and political fate is in the hand of unelected commissars thousands of kilometers away.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #78

If you respect a fair democratic system, you will also respect the votes of the Polish people and the democratically elected leaders in parliament, the PM, the President, and so on. These are our decisions. I may disagree with what people in Germany have decided in electing Merkel again, but that's their right. It was a free and democratic election and I respect the voters' decisions. Such is the Democratic system. If we decide to be 'isolated' as you want to call it (despite all economic factors and flood of investments that have come in since 2015), that's fine - it's Polish citizens choice. At the moment, PiS support is at a record high. CBOS has stated 3/4 of Poles reject migration from M.E and Africa. Our government is listening to our people hence their high level of support. Even when they go too far - as with the case of Duda's veto or not going ahead with pushing further abortion control - they listened to the protests and corrected course. I'm confident they will do so again if there are other issues that the Poles don't agree with the governments' decisions. Currently though, the majority of Poles are rejecting migration, they are happy about the 500 zl system, and they are far more supportive of PiS than PO - in fact more than double the amount of support. Add Kukiz 15 to the mix and PiS and Kukiz account for the majority of Poles.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
11 Oct 2017  #79

Running out of arguments again, Mr. Ironside?

pff, look who is talking. What argument? The same pseudo - argument AfD in Germany are using. Yes if you have no argument you can use it as you did.

Why isn't Poland suing Russia

Why don't you mind your own business? Why are you always siding with everybody else but Poles? Those at least are legitimate questions. You on the other hand try your best to change the subject. We can talk about Russia in an appriopate thread. Right now we are talking about Germany and reparations they haven't paid to Poland. Yet they got all the benefits of the Marshall Plan. Now they are too big for their shoes and full of it.

IF they want real reconciliation they should pay rather than lecture, meddle and stir sh....! They know damn well that is the right way to do it. They are just cheap. You are stuck in denial and German nationalism.

Otherwise FO.

Great, telling FO to woman. That settled it you German twat. lol!
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
11 Oct 2017  #80

We're not dependent on favors from any party leader. You're confusing that with commie socialist PRL years.

People that have experience both say that structurally and operationally PiS is essentially a neo-PRL with a different political ideology but the same model of rule by the party leader (and patronage and corruption)
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
11 Oct 2017  #81

People that have experience both say that structurally and operationally PiS is essentially

Oh bugger off with your BS. You're clearly obsessed with your PiS basing HS. change the tune will ye?
Tell me you might czar of linguistic kingdom what you have against Germany paying up for the damage they have down to Poland, property and Polish populace? After all America prompted them up with Marshall Plan and they have paid up to all and sundry all kinds of reparations but Poland.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #82

People that have experience both say that structurally and operationally PiS is essentially a neo-PRL with a different political ideology but the same model of rule by the party leader (and patronage and corruption)

No real Pole compares modern day Poland to PRL within PL - that's an insult to Poles and Poland and they'd know that. Unless by 'people' you mean foreign funded groups like KOD and those who don't give a flying phuck about Poland aside from the zlotys they can change into dollars, euros, and pounds. I don't hear Poles saying that at all. The only criticisms were during the so called 'constitutional crisis' - which Duda vetoe'd 2/3 and during the abortion protest which PiS also listened to the people and cancelled their proposals. The 500 plus, refusal to kow tow to EU, refusal to take in migrants, among other policies were greeted warmly - hence their record support which is double PO's. The only people who are comparing Poland to PRL are traitors like Michnik (he should talk, considering his own family killed AK members). If Poland were really like the PRL leaders they would shut down Wyborcza, confiscate their property, and make Michnik a persona non grata (he lives in NYC anyway). I'm willing to bet that Poles would celebrate if that happened as Poles are more aware than ever who's a patriot and working to help the country and who isn't. Give their fancy apple computers to the poor schools in the east.

Operationally and structurally PRL was commanded and basically formed with Moscow and the loyalists they installed. Same with the other Comecon and Warsaw Pact nations. PiS is loyal to Poles - not some pie in the sky international socialist or a foreign government thousands of kilometers away. If they are managing to reclaim shares in strategic companies, foreign media, etc and putting it back in Polish owned hands while still bringing in loads of new foreign companies that aren't interefering with sensitive sectors nor creating monopolies to bring ever increasing higher paid jobs and decreasing unemployment, I see nothing wrong with that.

The leaders in PRL didn't hold free democratic elections, they confiscated properties, there were no checks on corruption (recently 6 individuals were arrested for demanding 40 mil zl in bribes), they murdered opposition figures, they controlled prices, and they did everything to prevent a democratic society. Once PiS starts killing opposition members and become the only party in the country then the comparison with PRL will be apt. An 'illiberal' Christian oriented democracy is nonetheless a democracy and this party was democratically elected by POLISH CITIZENS. You'll have to deal with it till the next elections, which I predict PiS and the right will win once again.

Poles have gotten a taste of the West and while they may like the luxury brands, higher salaries, etc they're not keen on creating a multicultural society and having their culture diluted and possibly eventually replaced altogether. We have everything we need at home. Money and trade are important to Poles but not at the expense of inviting in terror attacks and having our culture and values changed. Poles had a fascination with the West for nearly a decade following EU entrance. Eventually, they came to the realization that while the economic aspect is great, other aspects aren't really all that. There's pro's and con's like with everything. We've decided what to borrow from the West and what not to. No one ever said we have to accept everything. Since the EU entrance we've found a formula on what we want and what will help the country to grow at a steady pace without leaving too many little guys behind as happened in the years past.

One things for sure - Poles got a taste of the Western oriented politicians who were all to keen on selling out their country to mostly German bidders including strategic areas, inviting in people form ME/Africa per the kowtow to the EU, and even complaining that Polish people don't make enough money - and not in a positive way as in 'how can we make average Polish people wealthier.' We got a taste of the West and we've decided that what kind of identity we want to keep, retain, and perpetuate through the future.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #83

rsf.org/en/ranking/2016

Michnik crocodile tears included: krakowpost.com/14419/2017/05/poland-press-freedom-index-reporters-without-borders

Poland is 47th - just 2 places below France, 4 places below the US, and far higher than Hungary, Japan, Qatar South Korea, Romania, Croatia, Israel (101st place- ironic for a guy who cries about press freedom in Poland but no mention about Israel - he and his Wyborcza always defends Israel and he personally said in an interview that Palestine-Israel tensions are 'non-issue' and there is no such apartheid of Palestinians)
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
11 Oct 2017  #84

No real Pole compares modern day Poland to PRL within PL - that's an insult to Poles and Poland and they'd know that.

Well I guess living in Poland (unlike some people I could name.....) I don't know any Poles that would meet your high standards... apologies.
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #85

@Dirk diggler
Just one thing - we are a democratic society and that's why calling someone who doesn't support the ruling party 'not a real Pole' is wrong. We need pluralism in the politics. We experienced one party rule during the communist times and that didn't work. People may despise others' political beliefs but a democratic society needs a choice. Every government should have opposition, IMHO.

As for multiculturalism, we're far from Western Europe but ...
I live in a rather small town but even here there are more and more foreigners. Groups of Ukrainians shopping for groceries is a normal thing to see now. There are more and more Indians (?) that you see in the street. The Chinese running the so-called chinskie sklepy and so on.

And as a matter of fact, Poland was pretty multicultural before WW2 - Jews, Germans, Russians and Ukrainians were probably the biggest minorities. And then things got ugly with the outbreak of the war. That heterogenity was taken from us as well.
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
11 Oct 2017  #86

Poland was pretty multicultural before WW2

And... if they can get the language down foreigners have a much easier integrating into Polish life than outsiders do in many European countries. That might change if the numbers get too big but for the time being it's an under-appreciated asset.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
11 Oct 2017  #87

we are a democratic society and that's why calling someone who doesn't support the ruling party 'not a real Pole' is wrong.

That a contradictory statement. I would think that the opposite would be a true.

We need pluralism in the politics

Is that even means anything?

Every government should have opposition,

Opposition is OK ,sure but not defenders of the post-commie thieving, corrupt and inept paradise where a law abiding citizen is being taken for a ride while crooks and scum are thriving.

Multiculturalism is BS, especially a forced one.
kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #88

@Ironside
Can you elaborate? Why is that contradictory?
How about being against all sort of theft and corruption in the parliament, not only 'post-commie', whatever that means?
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #89

if they can get the language down foreigners have a much easier integrating into Polish life than outsiders do in many European countries

10 year Harvard study shows forced multiculturalism is generally detrimental to a society. I am more than happy to see foreigners from all corners coming to Poland though and learning the language, assimilating, not causing any problems, and contributing to the tax revenue and PL society at large. We don't mind taking in foreigners - we do mind people living off welfare and causing problems with violence, crime, marching with signs that say 'Poland go to hell' or 'Sharia 4 Poland' - that's the kind of stuff we don't want. Even in a small rural town outside of Wroclaw where my aunt is a teacher there is now even Asian kids in the grade school.

someone who doesn't support the ruling party 'not a real Pole' is wrong

I never called someone who isn't supporting the ruling party Pis or otherwise 'not a real Pole.' I said comparing our modern democratic system to that of PRL as offensive to Poles and something that most Poles wouldn't say.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
11 Oct 2017  #90

Can you elaborate? Why is that contradictory?

Well people have the right to express their opinions - all opinions -including opinion that some people are not real Poles. Freedom of speech is a part of the parcel, you cannot have freedom and rights i.e. democracy without it.

post-commie meaning system that evolved in Poland after 1989 where people from the Soviet Poland, specifically soviet secret services gained an upper hand and privileges and an average person stood no chance. Instead of a fair competition special bonuses and shortcuts for privileged and connected. Mostly for Polish speaking Soviets.




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