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Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar



kaprys - | 363    
11 Oct 2017  #91

That's an opinion, not a fact. And I said calling someone not a real Pole is wrong. I never said people are forbidden to express such opinions.I do believe in freedom of speech and I believe you have a right to disagree with me or the other way round.

I'm against theft and corruption in the parliament no matter what party a given politician is from or how old he/she is - the reality is that more and more MPs are too young to have been in the PZPR.

There are some slimey types who would change their political views depending on what party's in the government and we both know it.


Lyzko 17 | 3,637    
11 Oct 2017  #92

Many ultra-conservative German nationalists, such as the Gottscheer folks from Sudetenland, argue the opposite! They believe that Poland owes THEM their territory which the Slavic "enemy" stole from THEIR lands.

Can't please everybody, so don't bother trying.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
11 Oct 2017  #93

Gottscheer

Are you talking about the old school Prussians/Germans in modern day Slovenia?
OP Atch 12 | 1,746    
12 Oct 2017  #94

No real Pole compares modern day Poland to PRL within PL

Any person born of Polish parents and raised with an understanding of their language, history and culture whether in Poland or abroad is a real Pole and I don't think you can make such a sweeping statement about tens of millions of people and present it as a fact. What you mean to say is that in your opinion, you don't believe that a 'real Pole' would feel that way.

The only people who are comparing Poland to PRL are traitors

People are entitled to be individuals with their own belief system, opinions etc. and still be a real Pole. Nobody should have to think only one way or otherwise be denounced as a 'traitor'. Do you not see that that is basically a totalitarian philosophy? The concept that every citizen must buy into an ideology and follow it. And there you have the ghost of the PRL and how it still haunts Poland. The repressive ideals are still there but this time they are based around building a right wing Christian state.
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
12 Oct 2017  #95

individuals with their own belief system, opinions etc. and still be a real Pole

The idea that only those with particular view (which just happen to be those of the Party) are 'real' Poles is straight out of the PRL
Ziemowit 8 | 2,575    
12 Oct 2017  #96

is straight out of the PRL

With this I must agree. I remember PRL times too well as not to agree with this. The exact term used was not 'real Pole', however. The 'real' Pole was in fact defined through the alleged opponents of the Polish state led by the communist party. So you could hear, for example, the term 'wrogowie socjalistycznego państwa' [enemies of the socialist state] implying that those who are not in agreement with the line of the party are not normal Poles. A normal Pole would never protest against the party's wisdom or the party's actions. This was so obvious that there was no need to call them any special name because they were supposed to constitute the majority of the the Polish society.

Today things have changed a lot and one can no longer imply an overwhelming majority supporting Our Dearest Leader Chairman Jarosław Kaczyński and his pretorians in everything they do. This has led internet supporters of the present government's propaganda to coin a rather handy term of 'real' Pole. Not everyone is a PiS supporter, but they really should or they should move in that direction. Once they achieve this, they are real Poles. Thus a real Pole is understood as some kind of an ideal rather than:

Any person born of Polish parents and raised with an understanding of their language, history and culture whether in Poland or abroad

Roger5 2 | 1,450    
12 Oct 2017  #97

This has led internet supporters of the present government's propaganda to coin a rather handy term of 'real' Pole.

A very sinister development, and one which must be watched closely. It reminds me the McCarthy era 'Unamerican' show trials in the US.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
12 Oct 2017  #98

That's an opinion, not a fact.

What is?

And I said calling someone not a real Pole is wrong.I never said people are forbidden to express such opinions.

Oh? Another contradiction. An opinion cannot be wrong or right it is just opinion. Whether or not a person expressing such opinion is right or wrong it is a separate matter that cannot be divulged by taking umbrage to a simple phrase.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
12 Oct 2017  #99

Today things have changed a lot and one can no longer imply an overwhelming majority supporting Our Dearest Leader Chairman Jarosław Kacz

That phrse is not a new phrase, have been around for a while, in the air, on the interneat and so on. Asloe it is not PiS that used it, it was so called oppistion that used it aghinat JK in their proganda war. Narrowing to PiS and its supported is either thaking part in the prognada war (lying) or being a dummie.

Also right now this expression is not used that much. I for one prefer to use term Polishspeoaking Soviets or scum.
In my understanding some people are using (on the internet) term real Poles to stress that action and views of a certain individuals is in accord with Polish culture, values and traditions or is not. As seemingly Dirk diggler done it.

Others which are using and understand like those foreigners above (can't expect much of them) is some kind of weird fantasy land. You on the other hand either are as I said stupid or you take an active part in a propaganda war.

For those interests but clueless as to the Polish internal affairs there goes fight to get rid off post- commies, their influence and their order ruling in Poland.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #100

@Atch

Exactly. Hence a real pole, based on their knowledge of polish culture and history would know the differences between prl and modern (esp post 2010) Poland. That's like comparing commie east Germany to modern day east Germany. Or socialist Hungary to modern day Hungary..
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #101

Quite frankly yes it is an insult to poles comparing a puppet system which we were forced to live under (western betrayal) for decades where there was no legal opposition, freedoms were suppressed, priests murdered, no free market etc etc etc to a fair democratic capitalist system with cultural undertones. If you guys dont like it and want to change it become polish citizens and vote in the next elections or become involved with parties and lobby groups. And even if the group(s) you support lose, such is the will of the polish people who together formed a post commie democratic society. Its not perfect as no system is and were still working out the kinks but its far better than anything we had pre 1990
OP Atch 12 | 1,746    
12 Oct 2017  #102

were forced to live under

Forced by fellow Poles. What about Bierut. He was Polish wasn't he? And Gomułka. It's not just a question of 'western betrayal' but betrayal by some of your own people who colluded with the Soviets because they they themselves were Communists. And in fact the people of Poland supported Gomułka for some of his career. Jaruzelski was Polish too wasn't he? And you have him to thank for martial law.
Harry 79 | 13,413    
12 Oct 2017  #103

And in fact the people of Poland supported Gomułka for some of his career.

Don't forget that the percentage of eligible Poles who actually joined the Party back in the day was pretty similar to the percentage of eligible Poles who voted for PIS at the last election.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #104

@Atch

All those people were controlled by Moscow/Warsaw Pact/Comecon interests. The only people who fought against Communism like Solidarnosc were outlawed. If someone wanted to make a real change in Poland back in the 50's 60's 70's the only way to do it was to join the Communist party and reform it from within as there were no other legal parties. The people who sought reform were labeled deviationists and often ousted, or even put in prison, exiled, etc.

@Harry
Those two percentages have nothing to do with each other. That'd be like if I compared the percent of Poles who voted for PO to the percentage of Poles who don't go to church and said PO voters are atheists or some other ridiculous claim. There is no proven correlation (which can be determined via graphs and linear regression, line of best fit, etc.). The only way to advance your career or even get a job within your field in many cases was to be a nominal party member. Same thing in Russia. If you were a soldier and weren't a party member they'd send you to the front lines in Afghanistan. If you were a soldier and a party member you got a comfortable posting.

Now let's get back on topic with German reparations...
OP Atch 12 | 1,746    
12 Oct 2017  #105

All those people were controlled by Moscow/Warsaw Pact/Comecon interests.

It's not quite that simple, it was more a mixture of control and compliance. The Soviets saw to it that Polish Communists were put in place after the war. If there were no loyal Polish Communists to begin with the Soviets would have had to terrorize Poles into becoming a puppet government or put their own Russians in place. Now if they had done that, put Russians at the helm, I think that even as exhausted and decimated as they were after the war, the Polish people wouldn't have stood for it. But clearly there were avid Polish Communists who wanted to see a Communist government in post war Poland and that is a fact.

Thereafter, Polish people simply accepted the status quo and adapted to it. As for reforms, the idea of 'subvert from within' was never really a coordinated effort with any serious momentum behind it.

The big stick that the Soviets could always wave was military intervention and that's largely what kept most Eastern Bloc countries compliant. Also after a decade or two they were economically crippled so it's not a great combo is it.
Lyzko 17 | 3,637    
12 Oct 2017  #106

@Dirk diggler, that's precisely about whom I'm speaking! As adamantly vocal as apparently many Poles these days are concerning Germany's reparations to their country, the Gottscheers are equally insistent that Slovenia, Poland, Czech Rep. and so forth "compensate" forcibly displaced ethnic German nationals with a sizable sum as well.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #107

would have had to terrorize Poles into becoming a puppet government or put their own Russians in place.

That's exactly what they did - it was a mix of Poles, Polish/Russian Jews, and Russians. Russian officers controlled the military positions while Poles and Jews controlled politics and state security. A high proportion of the leaders, especially in the UB of whom half were Jews, were those who fled Poland, went to Russia, and marched back in with the Red Army in front and later controlled the UB among other key posts. We've been trying to rid Poland of them and their vestiges since 1990. That's why Moscow is so upset that we destroy Communist 'liberator' symbols.

What about Bierut. He was Polish wasn't he?

Muscovite NKVD/GRU agent. He spent his whole life kissing Russian a$$ only to be killed by the Russian Commies he admired so much anyway. A traitor to the Poles, killer of AK members, coward who loved commies but hid from them during the purge, killer of clergy, and all around scumbag. This is why we want to eliminate any awards to such people.

And Gomułka

Same - Musvoite ass kisser who was brainwashed after his family was captured and exiled to USSR. Helped kill Polish AK members, clergy, true patriots, etc.

t's not just a question of 'western betrayal' but betrayal by some of your own people who colluded with the Soviets because they they themselves were Communists

Western Betrayal was just one of the many circumstances that resulted in Poland being USSR controlled for 5 decades. However, I can't really blame the West - it would've been nearly impossible to reconquer Poland from Stalin as Churchill wanted to in Operation Unthinkable but everyone was simple too weary of war and Allies had already agreed to the spheres of influence at Yalta anyway. The AK, the cursed soldiers, and others who supported the Polish government (which would later be in exile) were far more numerous than those who supported the Commies. As we know in history, numbers don't necessarily determine outcomes. The traitorous Poles and the Polish 'Muscovite' Jews who were allied with the Commies in Moscow came back to Poland especially after the uprising and the Nazis retreat and rolled right in, throughout all of Poland from east to west, and then into Berlin. The army led, the traitors from Poland (half 'Muscovite' Jewish faction, other half brainwashed subservient Poles and Russian officials) established state security - UB - half of who's leadership were Polish Jews from the so called Muscovite faction and other institutions. It was the same situation in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Baltics, etc. The Poles didn't want this but had no army to resist this. They were crushed by Nazis, then Russians, only to be taken advantage by Polish Jews and their brainwashed ethnic Polish friends who perhaps promised their families a few a loaves bread or two so they wouldn't starve.

As for reforms, the idea of 'subvert from within' was never really a coordinated effort with any serious momentum behind it.

It absolutely was -from Stalin's death all the way to solidarnosc being a formal legal party. There were reforms immediately following with the Kruschev thaw with the Polish October (led partly by Gomulka) to Solidarnosc to the gradual infiltration of more and more people in PUK/PZPR/etc along with negotiation with the Catholic church and solidarnosc and ultimate collapse of the commies....

Thereafter, Polish people simply accepted the status quo and adapted to it.

After years of WW2, millions of dead, invasion from two fronts, no help from the west despite promises by FDR, Churchill (who did far more than any other Allied leader since he saw how much Poles helped the Allies and appreciated it - as seen in his 'square deal for Poland' policies and operation unthinkable which sought to capture Poland from Stalin and let the AK/Cursed Soldiers/Government in Exile rule it) etc, it was simply that Poles gave up and were sick of fighting. They were sick of all the death and destruction around them and simply accepted their fate as a conquered people. They knew further resistance against their new Russian, Jewish, and brainwashed traitor Polish masters would result in death or label of an enemy of the state meaning no work, no food, and your family was screwed. Nonetheless, many patriots didn't give up the fight and it took us 50 years to prevail but we did.

again, this can be discussed in a separate thread... this one is about Polish-German reconciliation, reparations, etc.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
12 Oct 2017  #108

Forced by fellow Poles.

What a dumb thing to say. I guess you're talking about DNA or ethnicity or whatever racist standard you have in the back of your mind.

Being a Soviet means that there is no ethnicity, being a Soviet in PRL means to be a traitor forced on people by the Soviet union, an occupier.

Don't forget that the percentage of eligible Poles who actually joined the Par

And what that has to do with anything? What are you even saying? Some stupid twaddle as per usual.
kaprys - | 363    
12 Oct 2017  #109

@Ironside
Calling someone not a real Pole is wrong <----- that's my opinion. I'm free to express it. You're free to disagree.
Is that clear enough?
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
12 Oct 2017  #110

Is that clear enough?@ kaprys

It was clear first time but it doesn't makes sense and that is a fact not an opinion.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #111

@kaprys

The context was as follows:

mafketis - People that have experience both say that structurally and operationally PiS is essentially a neo-PRL with a different political ideology but the same model of rule by the party leader (and patronage and corruption)

me: No real Pole compares modern day Poland to PRL within PL - that's an insult to Poles and Poland and they'd know that.

The reason why I said that is because any 'real' Pole - meaning a person who has Polish ethnicity and has an understanding of Polish history, culture, society, tradition, etc would know how different PRL is from modern day, post EU entry Poland. I'm not Hungarian or German yet I know that modern Hungary is vastly different than the Hungarian People's Republic and modern E. Germany is different than the GDR. A 'real' Hungarian and 'real German especially would know the difference too and not say the two very similar especially structurally and operationally, they'd know a lot more than I would too on this subject as they are Hungarians/Germans and I am not.

3rd time now, can we discuss the title of the thread??
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
12 Oct 2017  #112

The reason why I said that is because any 'real' Pole - meaning a person who has Polish ethnicity and has an understanding of Polish history, culture, society, tradition,

Actually you're wrong. Plenty of people are making those comparison as it has became a slogan in a political war. Funnily enough those who are oft overusing it today against PiS are themselves deeply involved in PRL and in post-commie reality.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #113

. Funnily enough those who are oft overusing it today against PiS are themselves deeply involved in PRL and in post-commie reality.

Yeah that's why the remaining paragraph was: Unless by 'people' you mean foreign funded groups like KOD and those who don't give a flying phuck about Poland aside from the zlotys they can change into dollars, euros, and pounds. I don't hear Poles saying that at all. The only criticisms were during the so called 'constitutional crisis' - which Duda vetoe'd 2/3 and during the abortion protest which PiS also listened to the people and cancelled their proposals. The 500 plus, refusal to kow tow to EU, refusal to take in migrants, among other policies were greeted warmly - hence their record support which is double PO's. The only people who are comparing Poland to PRL are traitors like Michnik (he should talk, considering his own family killed AK members). If Poland were really like the PRL leaders they would shut down Wyborcza, confiscate their property, and make Michnik a persona non grata (he lives in NYC anyway). I'm willing to bet that Poles would celebrate if that happened as Poles are more aware than ever who's a patriot and working to help the country and who isn't. Give their fancy apple computers to the poor schools in the east.

PiS and patriots (even those who necessarily don't support PiS) called these individuals 'not real Poles' months ago because a real Pole wouldn't want harm to come to his or her nation and wouldn't sell out Polish interests to cudoziemcy. This was during the 'constitutional crisis' because they believed we should settle our own affairs instead of allowing millions from foreign NGO with specific agendas (more often than not which aren't in the interests of Poles and Poland) to interfere in our affairs.

There's many things I don't like about PiS and a lot of things I like about PO. Nonetheless, I believe Poles should settle their own domestic affairs - not people from outside to interfere and sway decisions to their agendas which more often than not doesn't help the country. This is where the phrase 'not real' Poles came from. It was the same back in WW2 - real Poles wouldn't side with the USSR and allow a puppet regime to form. Real Poles sacrificed their lives trying to prevent that.
kaprys - | 363    
12 Oct 2017  #114

Still just an opinion IMHO ;)
Deal with the fact not everyone agrees with you. @Ironside
@Dirk diggler
I hope it was just a misfortunate phrase. You seem to be ok.
Ironside 44 | 8,292    
12 Oct 2017  #115

Deal with the fact not everyone agrees with you. @Ironside

Oh I'm OK with it. I just like if things make sense. Your opinion doesn't. You're right thought, an opinion doesn't need to make sense.
kaprys - | 363    
12 Oct 2017  #116

@Ironside
It makes perfect sense to me ;) tc
Ziemowit 8 | 2,575    
12 Oct 2017  #117

Helped kill Polish AK members, clergy, true patriots, etc.

Funny how you paint it all black and white while the truth is actually several shades of grey. You certainly did not read any serious serious on Gomułka, did you? He was a devoted commie, it's true, but his stance towards Moscow was much more complicated than in the simple slogans you repeat. First, there is the "early" Gomułka, a rather different political person from the 'late" Gomułka. Then there were numerous instances where he stood up to the Muscovites to much amazement of his party colleagues.
Dirk diggler 4 | 1,159    
12 Oct 2017  #118

First, there is the "early" Gomułka, a rather different political person from the 'late" Gomułka

The early Gomulka was a Commie who agitated for workers rights and ran away like a little girl from the Nazis
The late Gomulka was a Commie who killed workers agitating for rights and rigged elections and referendums (Allied opinion) a few years after coming back with the Red Army and Judeo-Bolsheviks to bully Poland, then later tried to prevent the same people he came back with from establishing a total monopoly on the levers of power so he and his Polish-Socialist friends could have it instead

The only Gomulka I'm familiar with is the Communist scum who sold Poland out to Judeo-Bolsheviks such as Berman, Lieberman, Romkowski, Bierut, Ochab, Finder, & CO who were sent to organize Commie groups by the Soviets and take control of the country. Gomulka ran eastward with fellow Commie scum when the Nazis invaded. He only returned (see above the Russian/Jewish/Polish Commie M.O.) as the Nazis were retreating and were beat back at Kursk and other battles. After licking enough Stalinist and/or Judeo-Bolshevik boots, he got more and more power and severely repressed students, workers, protestors, etc who were sick of the low pay and conditions - much like the Spanish government who you were crying about just a few days ago... only difference is the Spanish police used rubber bullets, batons, etc. and didn't kill or severely injure anyone. Nor did they put Catalonian protestors in jail for days... Gomulka allowed live rounds, torture, detention, and murder. He at least had a shred of patriotism left for the Poles as he saw that he helped install a total Judeo-Bolshevik regime in power and tried for the rest of his life to change that including writing letters to Stalin to prevent a near total Judeo-Bolshevik political monopoly (and failed) and cried to Stalin saying too many Jews who hate Poles are running the country. He was kicked out of the party and spent nearly decade in prison where yes after his release, he implemented some reforms although much of that was a product of the time - the gradual decline of the original Judeo-Bolshevik and Stalinist power waning, the Kruschev thaw/PL October, and so on. Only different between Gomulka and Bierut's along with his Jewish faction is at first Gomulka wanted to bring others into the fold by diplomatic means, Bierut decided screw it - the Red Army's in charge of Poland anyway!

His 'Polish way to socialism' was still socialism... violent suppression, total media control, allowing Soviet troops to occupy Poland indefinitely, killing people who protest or jailing them for years, terrible wages, no free market, terrible inflation, price controls, etc. I guess he was marginally better than the people in the Stalinist Judeo Bolshevik faction though who didn't care about Poland one bit.

Now back on the German topic...
mafketis 16 | 4,721    
13 Oct 2017  #119

Now back on the German topic...

Provocation: Germany owes Poland nothing. It might owe individual Polish people something but at the state level there is no legal or ethical reason for pursuing reparations.

Debate!
Ziemowit 8 | 2,575    
13 Oct 2017  #120

much like the Spanish government who you were crying about just a few days ago...

I never cried about the Spanish government a few days ago.

a Commie who killed workers agitating for rights and rigged elections and referendums

'Rigging an election' is hardly a term to be applied to a communist country. An 'election' was just a name apllied to a political event in communist Eastern Europe that had nothing to do with an election in the Western sense of the word. Thus using 'rigging' in reference to a commie election has no sense whatsoever.

Judeo-Bolshevik

I'm afraid that at your second go on the PF you are heading in the same direction as Adrian once did. Too much talk on the Jewish factor in your tirades reveal your true obsession. Personally, I am much more at ease with Crow's obsessions of pagan gods and Sarmatian origins of the Slavic people than the Jewish obsessions of yours..




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