Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar

True colours will out.

Paweł Kukiz, singer and leader of the KUKIZ'15 party said he didn't believe in any war reparations from Germany. - "It would be fine if Germany returned the Amber Room to us" - he added.

He commented on the fact revealed by the TVN recently that Jan Kundrelek, a former communist security service man works now for the Polish intelligence. - "If that is the case, I am perhaps better suited for a job involving the security of state than the present Minister of Defence, Antoni Macierewicz" - Kukiz said.

- "I wish I could live in a country as portrayed by TVP3 information channel" - commented Paweł Kukiz on the reality currently depicted on Public Television.

Please note that in the time under communism people also had this impression that the reality showned on public TV in Poland was completely different from what you could observe with your own eyes. Is Paweł Kukiz a real Pole then?

@Ziemowit

No obsession with Jews in fact this is one of thr first times i brought this up in months
Im only pointing out FACTS since you brought up 'early' Gomulka. You can look up Gomulka's own letters to Stalin and see his complaints for yourself against the judeo Bolsheviks who ran Poland and had not a single care for 'Poland and polish workers.' As well as the fact that the UB leadership esp right after WW2 right as the reds were marching in among other key posts were disproportionately occupied by JudeoBolsheviks... Its not a stereotype or racism or whatever you want to call it its fact much like how the Zionist Rothschild basically saved Britain's ass in ww1 by getting us involved via Balfour declaration.

Anyway, this reparation issue will be settled. And I'm proud to say I am assisting Poland's rightful claim in this regard.

He certainly is a Pole. Criticism of this party policy etc or that doesn't make a person 'not a real Pole.' Idiotically comparing modern Poland to PRL does as any true pole knows how different the two are.

Good for Kukiz. I'm sure his grandparents and other seniors who had family members killed, wives daughters and sisters raped, homes shelled and burned must be so proud of him. I guess he's become too influenced by the 'just stick em in a nursing home' view (or maybe he's getting money, promotion etc from Germany or others to say that). Well I for one have not and respect my elders and their memory.

I think Dirk finds it easier to define who isn't a real Pole as to who is. For example a real Pole can't be a Communist but only a terrorized individual forced into Communism and that's patently not true because plenty of Poles were willing to jump on the Communist bandwagon and embrace the Soviet way. I'm talking about those who were keen to join the party, be active within it and be part of local or national government. There were plenty of Communists in Poland before the war. Poles, like every other nation are a mixed bag. There are some greedy, selfish, immoral, amoral ones, some foolish ones, some lazy ones, and whether one likes it or not, they are just as Polish as the honest, honourable, courageous, loyal and industrious ones.

However to return to the original topic which I started, I was struck by the irony of Poland, at this point in time when they are demanding war reparations for events of 70 odd years ago, and using very bitter and angry language to do it, basically lecturing people from the Balkan states with their very recent history of war, on how to foster good neighbourly relations. The condescension of it beggars belief. I think the problem is that this seminar, like most of these things, took a long time to organise, from the first idea to its final execution and in the meantime the war reparations issue has reared its head unexpectedly thanks to His Nibs.

How times have changed since Tusk confidently declared back in 2011:

"Our two countries can now serve as an example of how to build relations between peoples, institutions and entire countries, in spite of traumatic moments in history."

I think the worst aspect is that the two countries both seemed to be under the impression that they had drawn a line under the past and moved into the next phase. One of the features of PIS seems to be trying to undo things done by generations of previous governments, whether it be foreign relations, education reforms, signing of treaties, agreement to EU policies. It's simply not possible to govern a country effectively that way. It also gives an unfortunate impression, however inaccurate and unfair, that Poles don't keep their word and don't honour agreements and understandings. It just isn't possible to govern a country effectively by constantly saying 'oh we're not doing that because we didn't agree to it, that was another lot'.

I think Morawiecki should just send his bank details to Merkel by SMS and the money will roll in. After this we can ask Putin for some reparations from Russia.

In 80 years time there will probably be some Iraqis demanding reparations from Poland for its part in the illegal invasion of 2003.

You realize Tusk is of German heritage and has been Merkel's lap dog for a long time. He left his 47k EU a year post for 300k EU and 5 courtesy limo private plane job. Poles tend to hate him.

Next step is to gain further us influence via polish lobbies like PNA to pressure Germany. Fortunately the trump admin and white house prefer Poland over Germany

All entering governments undo certain agreements policies treaties etc. That's how politics and business work basically all around the world save for places like n Korea Cuba etc

You can only obey his orders comrade.


Soviet came from any background, there were Jews, Russians and whatnot some gutter dealers and thieves and criminals but also some Polish peasants and one or two Poles. The difference lie in the fact that majority of Jews could boast a quite good education and so called Poles could hardly sign their name and only very few had any formal education.

After 1947 that all changed step by step, So if you are talking about 70' and 80' there were plenty of people who knew no better or were following their fathers - traitors. Majority of those you would call Poles. I call them Soviets. Let it go.

No they don't,not in the wholesale fashion that PIS are doing.

Donald Trump couldn't give a flying fiddlers about Poland.

Tusk's heritage is irrelevant. It's the content of the statement that counts. Would you disagree with his statement?

That is not the normal way for governments to behave at all. Imagine if the Germans suddenly said that their 1991 signature on the treaties recognising the finality of the Oder as the border, no longer applied.

I'm no huge fan of Tusk but I don't think it's correct that most people here hate him. I have never heard anybody express strong sentiments about him - and I know quite a lot of normal PIS voters. Yes he has got a limo. Most of the current government here also have limos, and so does The prominent backbench MP who cannot even drive.

They absolutely do - in US, Canada, UK, Germany, Poland, whatever. Politicians all the time campaign on ending some law/policy/etc that the previous generation passed replacing it with a different one.

PiS did make some drastic changes and some new policies. A few I disagreed with but overall I think they're doing a wonderful job. Economic indicators are certainly getting better and better every quarter. Our economy is healthier and more competitive than other EU nations. Look at the unemployment rate for one - in 2013 it was 11% - it's half of that now. Just about every month the unemployment rate is going lower and lower while wages are rising. Not only that, we don't have hordes of people from the 3rd world to take care of like Germany, France, etc do. That was the best thing that PiS did imo - refuse to kowtow to accepting to the EU and take in 3rd worlders which PO agreed to do which the majority of Poles did not want. That was one of the main reasons why they lost. Poland didn't want to take in migrants, PO did, PiS was firmly against it and continues with that policy.

Absolutely. It's their signature - and presumably allows for lots of pocket lining that their supporters are happy to know-no-evil about....


They're not interested in effective governance - it's TKM all the way down. _AND_ it's their way of making excuses, it's not our fault it's those terrible people before us! Some of the more gullible/buyable fall for it.


That is _exactly_ the impression they're trying to create to discourage foreign investment and foreign oversight.

It's not a bug of PiS governance i'ts the defining feature - turn other countries against Poland so people liable to oppose them leave and those left are more pliable and ready to accept the next shoveful of manure and call it chocolate.

This is usually reserved for one or at most two key policies with which a large number of the public are dissatisfied and generally confined to domestic policy. PIS have introduced 'reforms' in area such as education which was doing just fine, OECD reports very favourable, the public not crying out for change. Fixing things that aren't broken is their speciality alongside breaking things that are working. As for foreign policy, EU countries are bound to honour treaties signed and policies agreed to by previous governments.

Actually it's the exact opposite - PiS is encouraging FDI especially from non-traditional partners especially China.

Please explain to me why then so many foreign companies have opened up (or are planning to) offices, factories, etc recently? JP Morgan, Mercedes, LG just to name a few...

financialobserver.eu/poland/poland-is-the-leader-in-the-fdi-inflow-in-central-and-southeast-europe

USD 13.5 billion in 2015
USD 11.4 billion in 2016

Poland is 24th out of 190 countries in its 2017 Doing Business ranking. During PO years it's was it jumped around from 40th to 60th places... under PiS it's in the 20's...

tradingeconomics.com/poland/ease-of-doing-business

As far as I know Tusk is of Kashubian ancestry, not German.
As for Polish-German reconciliation, it's been over 50 years since the letter of Polish bishops to German bishops concerning reconciliation. Wojtyła was a great supporter of the idea. Was he Polish enough?

@Atch

Actually, people were more than happy to have the 500 plus program and to prevent PO's agreement to take in 3rd world migrants which Poles overwhelmingly disagreed with.

As far as the reparation issue, the polls are unfortunately unreliable as there's so many with such vastly different results - skewing of statistics by the pollster

I really wonder about you sometimes. You studied business at third level and yet.........these deals don't happen overnight. They are years in the planning and are a result of the work that successive governments have done on the economy through their own efforts and supported by the funds and mentoring of the EU and the IMF. This is not the result of PIS. As far as foreign investors go, companies like JP Morgan know things that we don't get to hear about. You can be sure that the overall vibe is that PIS are just a temporary glitch and they are likely to get themselves voted out of office in the next election before they can do any further harm hence major investors don't have too many qualms in the long term.


And they'll be a lot more unhappy when it disappears as it inevitably will as it's completely unsustainable. It's a quick fix solution to a long term problem and PIS have neither the will nor the ability to tackle the problem of the falling birth rate with a properly thought out set of coordinated policies

Of course they don't happen overnight - and neither are deals cancelled overnight unless its some extreme circumstance like a war or appropriation by Commies. Usually deals like that they take around 1-2 years to plan before the concrete foundation is even poured. I never said it was the result of PiS. I commented on Maf's statement where he wrote that PiS 'discourage foreign investment and foreign oversight' when that clearly isn't the case.

Its not unsustainable. Social Security is unsustainable. 500 zl a month for poor families can easily be offset by the higher wages hence higher taxes, Ukranians, Indians, etc coming to Poland to work, etc. If need be they can also use their excellent credit rating to sell bonds to raise some quick money.

As far LG and JP morgan, they announced their plans recently.

I highly doubt that PiS will be voted out considering they have double the support of PO - 43% vs 20%

Also, all they have to do is remind Poles that PO wanted to take in migrants from the middle east and ruin Poland's perfect record of 0 Islamic terror attacks. That was one of the main reasons (probably the main reason) why PO lost. Along with the recordings of them bashing Poles for not making enough money while munching at a 5 star restaurant courtesy of the poor Polish tax payers.

They announced them recently which means they've been thinking about them and in informal discussions with the Polish government for longer than that. And as you say, deals don't get cancelled overnight either so it will be a while before one sees the results of some of PIS less well advised actions. Business people don't care about your feelings, your patriotism, your honour, your history. That's a big old snooze fest to them. The only thing they care about is their profit margins.

However to get back to Tusk's 2011 statement - do you think it was a fair appraisal of official Polish-German relations as they appeared to the outside world and apparently to Poland and Germany at that time? If not, why not? And if so, why has it changed? Please remember to use paragraphs in your reply or marks will be deducted :D

Actually, it's a lot more likely they were just helping Merkel's kabuki theater by agreeing to 'resettle' a small number of migrants who would, almost immediatley, return to Germany. The likelihood of more than a tiny handful staying was never realistic. that doesn't mean I approved of phony acceptance of phony 'refugees' but it's not like they were agitating for large scale migration.

And if you were actually living in Poland you're realize that the PiS government is doing nothing from preventing doubtful students and employees from showing up from South Asia and the middle east. They're just complicit in fleecing them which reduces their moral highground by a considerable degree.

@Atch

The LG factory will open in 2019. JP Morgan is already taking applications for the 2,500-3k jobs in Warsaw. The JP Morgan deal was done between the bank and PiS -

You're absolutely right - its' the bottom dollar that counts. A company will go with whoever offers them the most incentives for opening a factory, office, etc. Companies don't give a crap about all that stuff - unless it impacts their bottom dollar of course which in some cases it absolutely does and they must adjust if they wish to conduct business there. For example, Mobil can't go into Saudi Arabia and send a bunch of female engineers without making them aware of the cultural norms.

Ultimately though, it's up to Poles to decide how they want to leverage their country's economy and business interests. PO was more in favor of selling whatever to whoever, PiS was in favor of promoting partnerships with non-traditional partners while retaining some strategic industries and companies in Polish hands as well as increasing the percentage of Polish capital within Polish banks.


Yes and no. While trade was and remains strong between the two countries, Poles are generally distrustful of Germans and tend not to like them at the personal and societal level. It doesn't mean they won't do business with them. It's like a poll was done in Azerbaijan asking whether they believe Armenians should marry Azeri women. Most (majority) Azeris said no. Another question was should Azeris and Armenians do business together? Most answered yes. It's kind of like that with Germany and Poland. Middle/upper middle class Poles desire to put a Audi, BMW or Mercedes in their driveway but generally Poles don't really like Germans. It's a historical and cultural thing that goes back hundreds of years and has been used in propaganda by both sides for decades if not centuries.

Nonetheless, Poles generally do want good economic relations with Germany and vice versa. A lot of Poles travel to Germany to work - especially from around Wroclaw. It was common for young people in high school and college to go to Germany during the summer to work on farms to help with the harvest. Even now Poles who work in blue collar jobs like construction, welding, plumbing, etc will often go to Germany for like a week or two, work, then come back to Poland for the weekend or a week and spend their money.

Atch is wishful-thinking - let her be

I spend a significant amount of time in Poland every year. Good for them. The people who sign up for English classes from bogus universities have been coming for a long time. This is nothing new. More and more are coming because they're desperate to escape countries where the average person makes $1-$2 a day. It's not in PiS's interests to stop them from attending these schools. It's more money for the state, the school, more money to pay wages, etc. Plus they're going to buy food, pay for housing, etc so that's money others as well and tax revenue from that. If someone's an idiot and doesn't do their research it's their fault for getting fleeced.

Most of the foreigners who aren't Ukranian that are coming to work in Poland aren't from the middle ease - very very few migrate from those parts. The foreigners who aren't Ukranian and work and reside in Poland tend to be from India, China, Korea, Spain, Italy, Portugal, a few from wealthier EU countries like UK, Ireland, Germany, and the only muslims that come are from Pakistan, a few from Turkey, maybe 20k or so Chechens, etc. All tend to be very assimilated and work hard as it is impossible to survive off welfare in Poland. Unlike Germany, we are not a welfare state that rewards laziness and encourages foreigners to pop out kid after kid and collect checks, get their rent paid for, get their food paid for, etc. As soon as Denmark cut the welfare thousands of Muslims immediately moved to Sweden because they rather work. Then you have clowns like Soros who call for a million migrants to be taken into Europe indefinitely until the pressure subsides and $15k to be given to each migrant for at least 2 years... **** that...

This can really be moved to random chat...

That does not jibe with my experience at all. The general pattern with Germans (and Russians and some other groups) is to dislike them at the group level mostly for historical reasons but to not have much or any problems at the personal level (certainly no more than they have with each other).

In the far west of Poland, there is stronger dislike and a strange moral apathy about stealing from Germans (juma was widely tolerated by supposedly good Catholic Poles who were willing to skip over the whole 'thou shalt not steal' commandment).

That's what I meant. Yes Poles and Germans may be friends - I'm not saying that doesn't happen. There's Poles and Russians who are friends with each other too. As an ethnic group though, Poles dislike and distrust Germans for historical reasons. This has gone on since the age of Teutonic Knights Furthermore, there's very few Germans actually living in Poland. Most of the contacts that Poles have with Germans are those who travel to Germany to work. I know one Polish lady who worked as like a personal maid/assistant/secretary sort of deal basically charmed the pants off some German neurosurgeon and thanks to that got a new Mercedes E-class, totally remodeled her home, sent her kids to uni, and basically turned her her bank account from nearly broke to stupid high by polish standards.. And to think... an uneducated Polish cleaning lady managed to basically con some educated German neurosurgeon over the course of a few years. The guy basically gave her everything and now she and her family get to live in the lap of luxury. Now she's the biggest pimpess in Oborniki Slaskie

It's not stealing - it's reparations ; ) Maybe if they gave us 1/2 of what they gave Israel and Jews we can call it even

The Battle of Grunwald is one of the most celebrated events in Polish history. We've been fighting with the Prussians/Germans ever since Poland was a state. Hitler used anti-Polish sentiment and would frequently use German knights battling Poles or write that Germans must avenge Grunwald or talk about some battle in which the Teutonic order won in propaganda. This was done on both sides and continues to today - albeit less so in Germany now.

Poles regard Russia as their primary enemy though. Still they are distrustful of Germans - it's something that's been ingrained in us for a thousand years and unlikely to change anytime soon. It doesn't mean we won't buy German cars and sell them Polish furniture, clothes, etc or buy Russian gas and send them Polish apples. On a societal level though we tend not to cozy up too much.

The Livonian knights were hankering for territory in the East for centuries. Eisenstein brilliantly evokes their cruelty in "Alexander Nevsky", as in the famous scene highlighting the film maker's famous three-figure composition where Russian prisoners are tied to a stake, at the same time being tortured by the Germanic invaders while the camera slowly pans their faces as they struggle to free themselves.

Surely no coincidence that Eisenstein hated the Germans almost as much as he gladly propagandized for the Communists, being both a Russian as well as a half-Jew:-)

In other words, was Wojtyła a true Pole or was he not? That's a big question!

...z krwi I kosci!! No question, Ziemowitku, big or small.