Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar

A Pole he was.. and quite a religious figure as well.. an economist, businessman, etc he was not.. But he was quite involved in politics...

He and a Jewish Professor criticized the 'jacobin' EU constitution for lack of reference to Europe's Christian roots.
zenit.org/articles/jewish-professor-defends-mention-of-christianity-in-euro-text/

John Paul II said:

I know that there are many in opposition to integration. I appreciate their concern about maintaining the cultural and religious identity of our nation. However, I must emphasise that Poland has always been an important part of Europe. Europe needs Poland. The Church in Europe needs the Poles' testimony of faith. Poland needs Europe

@Dirk diggler
The point is that he advocated Polish-German reconciliation. Just twenty years after the war, affected by the war himself.

@kaprys

He also advocated criticism of the pro-homosexual EU

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, more subtle and hidden, perhaps, intent upon exploiting human rights themselves against man and against the family" oh how wise this man was...

cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/pope/stories/legacy/index.html

He called for reconciliation because he is a religious figure who promoted peace - he did the same with Iraq, Rwanda, between the solidarity/commie factions in PL, south Africa between whites and blacks, etc.

@Dirk diggler
Isn't this thread about Polish-German reconciliation rather than the EU or homosexuality?

@kaprys

Just pointing out a few things Karol Wojtyla said. A lot (not all) of his sentiments mirror that of Poles. We already have had Polish-German reconciliation through cross cultural trade, movement, no more war, etc. Now they can pay for the damage they've caused in two world wars. They just finished paying off WW1. They've made a dent towards WW2 reparations to Greece, Israel, Jews, and so on. It's time they do the same to Poland now. There's a lot of Poles, especially seniors who were themselves impacted by the war or their direct families who support the idea of reparations. With Poland's aging populations, that's a heck of a lot of people. It's not as popular with the youth but younger persons like myself can help change that. In the US the battle is now beginning and Germany already is starting with a very weak position. I'll tell you also that there have already been closed door meetings between Poland and Germany in this respect. A payment of some sorts will be made - I can guarantee you that. While Poland can't exert enough pressure on its own to get Germany to pay, with the help of the US we can.

@Dirk diggler
I'd would have been called JPII generation.
I wonder what's left from that generation and what he'd say if he could see Poland now.
The letter he supported wasn't about money. And it was the communists who criticised it.

Are you talking about JPJ II or Gomulka/Stalin or someone/something else?

What kind of weak position are you refering to? Because as I explained to you several times, in legal terms the case could not look better for Berlin. Warsaw has nothing to back up its' demands, except with the claims that the existing agreements are somehow invalid, which doesn't make sense according to international law.


More than a dent, all of those cases are settled. Israel still receives money e.g. for taking care of elderly Holocaust survivors on the basis of existing treaties. Poland on the other hand has signed treaties several times that rule out the possibility of future reparations. You are falling for PiS propaganda if you really think that Germany could be forced to pay anymore reparations. Sure, perhaps Berlin will donate a few millions for some foundation, but nothing that could be viewed as reparations.

@Dirk diggler
I'm talking about Polish-German reconcilliation. In 1965 Polish bishops, Karol Wojtyła among them, wrote a letter to German bishops forgiving and asking for forgiveness. It didn't mention money. It was purely about reconcilliation and cooperation. So it wasn't Tusk or PO who first had an idea that Poland and Germany could reconcile. As a matter of fact, it was Polish communists, Gomułka among them, who criticised the Church for the attempts at reconcilliation.

As for JPII I wonder how he would feel seeing his nation so divided, bitter and angry.

They are invalid because they were made by a puppet government and was limited to asking reparations from EAST GERMANY. Not post unification Germany as a whole. The issue was brought up in the 90's again but Poland had a far weaker political and economic position and the EU didn't exist. We will continue to apply pressure on Germany for what they did. They've paid out numerous parties like Greece that suffered way less loss of life and property than Poland and Poles. Once we get the right people involved, Germany will pay. Probably not a trillion but they will make significant payments.

So why should Israel and Jews continue to receive money when Poles suffered roughly the same amount of death and destruction? Again, if we received even 1/2 of what Israel and the Jews received we'd be more than happy with it. We didn't receive any billions of dollars, submarines capable of launching nukes, etc.


Made during PRL because the USSR masters refused any assistance from the Marshall Plan and wouldn't allow members to sue another comecon/warsaw pact country - namely E Germany


They have already been closed door meetings between Berlin and Warsaw. What the Germans say to the reporter's mics and what happens during meetings with Poland and amongst themselves are two different things.


Of course, that's what religious leaders do.

including long after all involved are dead.... this does not make poland look good or honorable international, a nation of oathbreakers!

there's no way to reopen reparations without reopening the border issue, do you want to return to Wrocław or Breslau?

@mafketis

The borders were settled by the Allies, not by Germany. The borders were drawn FOR Poland not BY Poland.


Not true - neither side brought it up...

Territorial disputes are a separate political issue. Neither saw brought up redrawing the borders. If we gave up parts of the West to get a trillion dollars or whatever the decision was that benefits Poland and is considered 'fair' as far as reparations for the death and destruction Germany caused, that's fine with me.

Source? And don't direct us to some dodgy website. What credible source has supplied you with this information?

you know kaprys: you can fool all of the people for some time, you can fool SOME people all of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time - what you see now is those who are STILL fooled even though they claim to be intellectually superior against those who have awakened - do you understand the bitterness now?

@gumishu
If they're bitter, they haven't awaken. Bitterness and anger kills from within.
One may be Christian or not, but the idea of forgiveness brings peace to one's soul. And you don't have to be Christian to understand it. :)

I know it may sound like Christian gibberish but it's true.

@Atch

No dodgy website. My association with PNA and other groups. The German ambassador met with Polish figures regarding this issue. What happened in that meeting I do not know, but I know it occurred. Whether you believe me or not I don't really care... Nonetheless, you'll see this is progressing and we will receive something from Germany whether it's reparations, favorable trade deals, donations, more EU funds, political leverage, etc. The Germans are scared that other EU countries and the US is going to side with Poland on this issue - especially the US and that's gradually in the works.This time our position is strong and as long as the PO sellouts who allowed for Germans to establish a near monopoly in sensitive sectors like media and finance don't win, which it appears by PiS' strength they will not, this will continue till its resolved. In the mean time, we're gathering international support on this issue. This topic is dominating the calendars of polish lobbies at home and abroad, parliament, law firms hired by the government, as well as émigré circles like PNA where Trump visited about a year ago.

So what now? Poland says hey don't you think you forgetting about something, you know my good friend for the stuff you destroyed during the war, let's talk about it my reconciled friend.

Germany DAT IZ WAR!
How about you peeps get real?

they have awakened to having been fooled - you demand a lot from people: to be suddenly awakened to all spiritual truths - it doesn't work like that - one thing at a time

The debate is likely never to go away, as both sides seem unwilling to compromise. Germany at long last wants to put her past behind her, while Poland seems to revving up for whole fresh fight.

So? your claim is that reparations were settled by others and not Poland. You can't open up one without the other, Poland gets a trillion euros and Germany gets Breslau back. Deal?

Again, the whole claim that after all these years Germany somehow reconfigure the map of Europe while paying Poland through the nose is just ludicrous!

Germany HAS in fact been paying through the nose since nearly the end of the War. Such is totally unhealthy, stunting the natural social, economic, even cultural, development of an entirely new generation of Germans.

@mafketis

Never said reparations were settled. Furthermore germany is contuing to pay reparations to numerous parties for ww2 as they just finishrd paying their ww1 reparatuins. Borders were not settled for just Poland but for Germany and every country east of it to Russia. Czechy Austria Hungary and all those countries had their borders defined for them.

Every non ussr or satellite country including Germany received money from the Marshall plan to rebuild their country. Poland despite being totally annihilated as it was a battlefield for literally the entire war didn't receive a penny. You don't think we wanted Marshall plan money to repair warsaw which was totally leveled? Warsaw looked like raqqa or any other God forsaken IS shythole. The soviets refused to allow Poland or any satellite nation to take Marshall plan money even though they desperately needed it - far more than France and UK which didn't have a fraction of the damage. They allies gave money to the aggressors even and wanted to give it to Poland as well BC they were one of the largest forces helping the allies. Stalin and the Russians wouldn't let us. Neither would Stalin allow for satellite nations to sue Germany as east Germany was now in Soviet hands.

Its not up to you to make terns of this deal nor is it mine. Yet I'll do what I can to help Poland as I find it shameful that someone wouldn't want people who were killed, raped, homes destroyed etc to receive compensation for what they and their families went through. The Greeks got theirs, the Jews, Israel, USSR, france, UK, even aggressor Germany all received money to fix their country in some form or another and many continue to receive reparations from Germany. We received m thing and continue to receive nothing despite suffering some of the worst damage and millions dead. Its high time for Poland to get the justice they deserve and receive compensation just like others have and continue to.

So maybe it is better to ask Russia for reparations ? They prevented Marshall Aid and probably caused equal damage as the Germans did. But PiS will not ask them because they know strong leader Putin will give them a humiliating two word answer.

Shame that you guys wouldn't want justice, even if delayed, for people who faced death and destruction for years. If your (or your parents/grandparents) home was burned to the ground, your wife (mother/grandmother) raped, and your friends and family killed by an invading army im sure you wouldn't be calling for some kumbaya reconciliation and would want justice for them.. And I bet a puppet government saying no thanks would p!as you off even further and only make your desire for justice stronger.

Do you really hate Polish people that much that you wouldnt want justice for their senior family members and the country as a whole? We had to rebuild everything brick by brick and turned it into one of the highest nominal GDP eu members and an economy more competitive than the traditionally wealthy countries.

This is not true. The treaty specifically refers to Germany, not East Germany.

I found a German copy of the Treaty. The important part is here:


This is not surprising, considering that back then, the GDR was in the eyes of the Warsaw Pact the only legitimate German government, just as the FRG was the only legitimate German state from the Western point of view. And as pointed out to you several times, claiming that the Polish government back then was not "legitimate" or a puppet is not an argument that is accepted in international courts.


True, but Poland received significantly more than e.g. Greece, even disregarding the lost German territory that are now Poland (which morally speaking should be included).


Because Israel signed different treaties with Germany than Poland.


Based on what has transpired between Polish and German diplomats during the last two years, it is rather easy to predict how the meeting went. No doubt the Polish side admitted that there is no legal basis for their argument and that the government is just raising the issue for domestic reasons. They now try to find some sort of solution that helps Warsaw save face, most likely some sort of foundation.

There are only two ways how this will end:

a) Some sort of foundation where Germany donates maybe 1bn€.
b) Warsaw decides to escalate things for domestic reasons, goes to court, loses and claims that Germany had bribed the court and paints Poland yet again as victim of German plots.


That is something Poland can be proud of.

I'm okay with individuals pursuing cases, but pursuing this at the state level makes Poland like a grifter blackmail country which cannot be trusted to keep its word. That's a good description of PiS (Kaczyński is notorious for backing out of deals and wanting to renegotiate before the ink is dry) but it's no way to run a European country (it's standard operating procedure for the third world).

And what did you suffer? You wouldn't have roots in Breslau without the border adjustments (which were punitive rather than corrective in nature).

Actually our legit non commie government was in exile till the 90s. Again territorial changes esp those discussed at Yalta preceded any sort of reparations and payments for European countries. The countries like Germany Poland czechy weren't present in the negotiations. There is significant evidence the elections for example parliamentary elections in the late 40s were rigged. Poland can easily point out that the majority of poles after the war supported the non commie ak, cursed soldiers, and government who was later in exile for decades. Again if you ask the generations and their families if they want reparations you'll get your answer. I guaruntee the vast majprity want repearations and justice for german and russian crimes. Those are the people who count since they went through it.

What did I suffer? Nothing of course as I just like you most likely were born after ww2. My grandparents from dads side are a different story (not sure about moms) as their home was destroyed and they literally lived in the forest. Another family member had his fingers chopped off 1 by 1 with an ax by a german to pry info out of him. Again borders were decided for us, not by us and we lost 70k m2 of land. They as many poles had property and lived back in lwow which was of course decided for us not by us to no longer be a polish city.

Weird fantasy that has nothing to do with reality.


irrelevant, you can't open up one can of worms without opening up others.

But there's nothing 'behind closed doors' about that. That's normal practice. The diplomatic corps of a country always tries to talk to disgruntled parties and pour a bit of oil on troubled waters. Of course how the present Polish diplomatic corps, as opposed to their German counterparts, operates is something of a mystery as tact, diplomacy and sensitivity are not big features of PIS.


I'm afraid that's not accepted in international law so you can't use that in court. Also you have had numerous legitimate governments since the overthrow of Communism and since the signing of the last agreement in 1990. None of them have felt it to be an important enough issue to raise nor have there been any loud demands from the public for it. If it's such a major issue for Poland then why didn't some Polish government raise it in the last 26 years? And surely, the time at which you were preparing to join the EU would have been an ideal opportunity. What sort of nation joins an alliance with another nation whom they believe owes them tens of billions in compensation without even mentioning it as a stumbling block to further integration? War reparations is not a Polish thing, it's a PIS thing.

You are talking about meetings in Chicago right ? Hope the food was good because otherwise they are of no importance.