Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best?

Firstly ironside, most educated people in the UK are welcoming to Poles, they believe them to be hard workers in search of a better quality of life. Unfortunately with the good you also get the bad, Poles drinking openly in parks and outside areas,although normal in Poland is completely frowned upon in the UK ( considered low life). Living 6 to a 15 m2 room is considered abnormal by the most Brits with no knowledge of Poland. Poles and other migrants from C and E do tend to gravitate to the lower end of the property market ( rentals) which is centered either on the outskirts of London or the NE/E of London.

If conditions for immigration were ideal, let the Brits go. Poles and Brits are used to each other already.

[quote: pawian]: Never in their history have Poles been as prosperous as today. I claim it is prosperity that halted reproduction - people prefer comfortable lives to family duties[/quote]

Alas, Pawian is right; it is one of the great conudrums of life that when people are going through a difficult time (on a collective basis) they tend to produce more children and when their situation/wealth improves, that's when the birth rate starts falling..Just look at the chart below:

tradingeconomics.com/poland/fertility-rate-total-births-per-woman-wb-data.html

Poland's birth rate remained high at around 2.2 children/women under the communist regime and starting climbing further late 1982, 9 months after the state of war was declared in dec 1981. It spiked at 2.4 and then moved to reverse shorthly after the end of the state of war in jul 1983. The downhill slope even accelerated after the fall of communism in 1990.

The good news though is that the curve has reversed again and after falling as low as 1.2, the birth rate is in an upward mood again..

Though rising, it is still below the nation`s reproduction minimum. Statistically, we lack 0.8 babies each year.

-0.8 means we are losing people, with the speed of about 25% per generation. Experts estimate there will be 32 million Poles in 2050. Some settlements will be totally depopulated.

Even if we increase social benefits for mothers/parents, improve child care facilities etc etc, the childbirth rate won`t increase significantly in Poland. I am a pessimist here. Why? Poles have taken to comfy life without children or with only one per family. Instead of spending their resources on the second, third etc baby, they prefer to go on holiday abroad, buy or build a house, have fun out at weekends etc etc.

Children mean burden, it is true, and who wants to consciously take it on one`s shoulders?

Therefore, guys, you won`t convince me that immigration is bad for Poland.

Only immigrants are able to give a new impulse to stop the dying out.

No, it isn`t bad, it is our only rescue.

And we have to be quick.
aei.org/article/society-and-culture/citizenship/is-europe-dying
economonitor.com/blog/2011/03/cee-demographics-is-eastern-europe-dying-off

So what size should Poland's population be and why?

Archeology all over the planet shows that abandonment of settlements are a fact of human existence. Before any human settlements there was nothing but the landscape and it was no problem for life here on Earth. If a settlement dies out it just shows that it ran its course and wasn't sustainable anymore for the population living there. Is it sad in a way? Sure. But demanding a flood of immigrants won't keep classes and churches full in many of these areas anyway since they almost always gravitate to larger urban centres and stay there. You can't invite immigrants to Poland and then force them to live in regions they don't want to go to. The communists tried that and look at the depressing toll it took on both people's lives and the environment during that era.

Poland isn't dying it is merely adjusting and if it is a downward adjustment then there is nothing wrong with that. 32 million is a very healthy number of Poles to have in any decade. Much wealthier countries like Sweden and Switzerland get by now with around one third of that size.

Now, the question is: Who do you work for? :):):

I mean: whose agent are you? Which country is paying you to write such things here as a hidden influence lobbyist ? :):):):)

Germany or Russia? :):):)

Or Great Britain?

The estimates for 2050 say that the UK will be the most populous country in Europe - 77 million, easily exceeding Germany and France.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-largest-in-western-europe-by-2050-2039395.html


You haven`t read my links, but I don`t blame you for that. :):):):):):)

So, one important piece of news: half of that 32 million Poles will be pensioners in 2050.

I'm nobody's agent. If I were I would be lobbying politicians or campaigning for office myself; not casually posting comments on the internet.


You should scroll down and read the comments from this article you cited. Even back in 2010 (and long before that actually) UK citizens were complaining and expressing fears of the burden the continuing mass influx of immigrants would have on their country both economically, socially, and environmentally. You claimed in your original post to be teacher concerned about school closures. If that's the case then you should also be aware that in both Britain and the United States there is a very real problem of overcrowded classrooms and the negative impact this has on a child's education. Of course one solution would be to build ever more schools and hire more and more teachers but this approach is not sustainable. This may give job security for builders and those in the teaching professions but in the long run it still doesn't benefit all those students because they eventually have to leave and enter a workforce where increasingly there are fewer job opportunities regardless of how high of a degree they obtain. And in today's global economy an employer can still very well hire a foreigner or ship the job overseas rather than employ a local even if he or she immigrated years before.

If you or fellow teachers are under threat of closure there are always other schools elsewhere you can work at if you are good enough. Here is one school that has been looking for a replacement head master: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8664333.stm


There are many countries facing a similar a demographic "time bomb". But immigration won't necessarily pan out to deliver the expected benefits of correcting this. For example, in 2010 there were 12 million legal permanent residents in the United States and officially there are an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants though some groups claim this latter figure is much more higher. Furthermore, some quarters in the US have claimed that the government has been allowing illegal immigration on a massive scale to continue (despite public pronouncements to the contrary) as a tacit way of addressing the issue of a large graying population and a smaller younger population which hasn't been reproducing at a fast rate. There is a reluctance to offer all these illegal immigrants amnesty because it is an explosive term among voters going all the way back to the Ronald Reagan administration because amnesty never stemmed the tide as promised. Despite all this the future for pensioners in the US remains bleak. There is still going to be a massive budget shortfall which will demand that their benefits be slashed and even more taken from the young. If younger workers, immigrant or not, are continually taxed at higher rates they will not have money to spend for themselves or their family. So why have more children? More immigrants will only force down wages and drive up housing prices or rents. And if people aren't spending money because they don't have it then jobs simply dry up. It is a vicious cycle. And as I've already pointed out many immigrant workers do not command high salaries and have a tendency to repatriate significant portions of their earnings back to their native homelands. In just the past year it is estimated up to 1 million immigrants left the United States. There have been some cases of deportations and tighter identity laws associated with this but no where near to have an impact that would add up to this figure. Most left voluntarily because they were economic migrants to begin with and America's economy slid off a cliff. So even many immigrants and their families will pick up and leave if they can't make it.

If Poland has a similar problem of having too many pensioners then it will have to face hard choices of making deep cuts or having them pay more out of their own pockets for any expenses they have in their golden years.

However, there are alternatives. They can be like many British pensioners and move to a sunnier place; preferably with a favourable exchange rate to the złoty or euros. Being an EU member Poland can also take a coordinated approach by working to pool pension costs with other EU states and share the ongoing pain of having had too many people to begin with.

me thinks that whole subject was a bait. So I'll bite. Require an IQ test for admission and take only the smartest candidates, regardless of nationality.

that's quite a stupid statement, if you realy think that high IQ makes someone 'smart'.....

Why don't people there rise up against such corruption? Well they do, but unfortunately they get put down, in fact any body who has ever been an honest candidate or rebel for equality has been put down- it's almost like there's a vested interest in maintaining the situation there.

Is that your first post on the subject of this thread? I think you're missing the point.

It seems its not only the Swiss Bankers, the British like to profit:-

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120867/Money-laundering-Queens-bank-Coutts-fined-8-75m-taking-despots-millions.html

Its funny that two of the despots I named in the post above are/were from countries which tried to launder money stolen from their own people.

I am sure that all politicians start out with good intentions, they are then corrupted by the greed around them. If the high salary and the expense perks are going to be taken away from you for not doing as you are told, morals go out the window.

The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse.
Edmund Burke

Absolutely...

And this leads us back to the original post and all the noise it has generated.

When immigration becomes a necessity then that is PROOF POSITIVE that inequality and exploitation is happening. Welcoming this reality is, in a sense, welcoming inequality and exploitation.

I think that this statement can be subject to different interpretations.

Is it exploitation if it is permitted by written law? In some countries, you are allowed to recruit workers from poor countries and make them work in blistering 40C+ weather 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week for $100 per month, and no benefits whatsoever beyond that. Usually these people live in slums that make concentration camps look good in comparison, and quite often, their employers are Western companies that pay their Western executives several hundred times more per month (and I mean that quite literally).

What do you think of that? Some say that nobody forced these people to leave their countries to work, therefore it is not exploitation, while others argue that such employers are taking advantage of the misery of these workers in their home countries and exploiting them...

On a different note, I have technically been an "immigrant" or an "expat" since I was 17. I have received over 300 stamps in my passport over the last 15 years. That means I have travelled from one country to another on average once a month during these 15 years. Have I allowed anyone to exploit me or exploit someone else through me? The answer is a firm no. I moved around a lot while I was looking for opportunity and more importantly, looking for me...

that's a total non sequiter, and has nothing to do with exploitation, or emigration. To compare a rich middle class person engaging in expensive wanderlust with the poorest of the world is indulgent to say the least. Did you find you? I suggest looking up your azz.

Its taken you 15 years of wandering to find yourself?

Try the moon, ya space cadet!

One country a month. Are you sure you weren't trying to run away from yourself.

Seems like you answered that yourself.


if you're saying your passport is 15 years old then I have my doubts.

:) several passports, where I come from they used to give passports with only 2 years validity, and now with 6...


Could be! I never thought of it that way

There is a campaign in Australia to encourage them to breed more.

"One for the wife, one for the husband, one for the nation" or something along them lines.

When the baby is born the happy couple get 2.500 Ozzie dollars.

Not a bad deal.

For now Poles are migrating to Belarus,

To comment on the OP's original post. I just want to say how glad I am you are not in charge of this country. What a great slogan. Keep us in power and we'll let in more immigrants. Do you know how many countries and trying hard to stop immigrants going in? For some places [like Britain] it seems to be too late. Allowing masses of immigrants in to the country causes much more problems than 'not having enough' as you put it. Anyway allowing immigrants in is not the answer. This is not going to solve the problem. Polish women are not more likely to want to have a child with an African or Asian guy than a Polish man. The problem is they fear having children because times are very difficult in Poland. If the current government did more to support families then perhaps women would be more enthusiastic about starting a family. This is why so many women [and men for that matter] move away to other countries, not because Polish people are travellers or because they want to get with foreigners, but because they want to be able to provide a better life for their family, when they have one. A lot of Polish women stick with Polish men in foreign countries, but they have better financial conditions to look after a family there.

As for the pictures you put up in your original post. I prefer the pure Polish ones to the mixed ones. Do you really want to have a class full of mixed race 'mini gangstas' like the last picture you posted at the bottom?

Do not mistake this for racism by the way. One can have no problem with other races but still prefer them to stay in their countries. There is nothing wrong with segregation in my view and if you want to see what other cultures are like, book a holiday and go take a look. No need to see them on nearly every street.

If you feel like it is too boring in Poland with so many Polish people in it that look so similar, move to Britain or America. Lots of mixed mess there. You can see how well people get along with one another and how they love other races. Personally I feel this is one of Poland's strengths, that it is not overflowing with immigrants. In a way, the fact that it is not the most financially prosperous country is a blessing in disguise because masses of foreigners to not flock to it.

Link, please! :):):)

If you don`t provide it, I will accuse you of lying and you will be nominated a No 1 Liar in the forum.

Your anti-Polish stance must be stopped once and for all. I am serious now.

The number of Ukrainian students have increased 3-fold and today they constitute the biggest minority at Polish unis.

More and more Ukrainians are interested in studying in Poland. In Kiev, the trade fair dedicated to learning abroad.

The fair brings together more than 50 foreign universities , including several Polish . Danuta Duda from one of them told Polish Radio that they give students a much greater opportunities than the Ukrainian ranging from trips abroad , through practices in foreign companies , and ending on the diploma recognized in the European Union .

Volodymyr and Tatiana told Polish Radio that they want to study in Poland due to the high level of the university. They note that the fee is a little higher than in Ukraine , and the learning is efficient. Besides, the diploma issued in Poland is recognized throughout Europe , not just in my country.

In the past three years, the number of students from the Ukraine in Poland increased three times - now studying them over six thousand , and are the largest group of foreigners in Polish universities .


In Poland, it is 1000 zlotys,

But additionally, every year you can deduct about 1100 zlotys from your tax (not income) until the child is 25. Last year I didn`t have to pay 3500 zlotys to my local Tax/Revenue Office. Not bad.

As the article states, because Polish universities allow gaining work experience at European universities and gaining a diploma which is recognized not just in Poland all over the EU.

Well, Poland doesn't need anyone from another country. If so, I would be able to marry my girlfriend and keep studying in Poland but no way.

For Poland, along with other EU countries, people from non-EU countries are just customers to get money from. For 10 months, I have been trying everything to be in Poland to marry my girlfriend and as I said, to keep having my university education. But nothing or nobody helps me about it. Universities ask for at least €2500 of tuition fee per year. If you ever try to get into Poland, you simply need to be GOD to be given work and residence permit.

When so, how can you claim that Poland needs new people? Here I am a young boy who is ready to have Polish kids and to work for & live in Poland with my wife. What I want is just an average life.

Anyone in need of me in Poland? Is there anyone to help? Who cares?

We all know the answer.

That is a fierce selection, I admit, but it is good for Poland. We need those most persevering ones, who will overcome all obstacles in order to become Polish. :):):):):)


Probably you are too young. :):):):):) Polish men marry at 25-28 on average.


I do.


I don`t.

You are even more barmy than I thought.
Coupled with your thread here it save to assume that you are dotty for sure.

Well, as I said, I am ready. But obstacles are not the ones I can overcome. All I can do is escape and I never want to do this. Why? An unqualified escapee would lead no good life. Neither his family could. I can come to Poland today... But I don't. Because I don't want to see a homeless Polish wife and boy. And Poland government? Even though I say so... I contacted many places for many times and what they said was only "Hmmm there is nothing we can do about this, sorry." So what? How can we overcome the obstacles when we don't know how to?


Yes, I am too young. My intention is not to have kids at the age of 20, but Poland says, if I want to be close to the woman I love, I need to marry her as fast as possible and I need to live in Poland as a jobless man. This is probably what we can do.


I take this as sarcasm.

You seem to have a lot of different things going on in your personal life. From what I gather you want to get married, have kids, go to university and work too. And yet you blame Polish society for not helping you. What have you contributed to Poland in the past that makes you prepared now to expect the Polish people to help you get along in life? Why should you be helped when there are literally millions of actual Polish citizens your age and older who have legitimate claims to work and education in Poland?

I'm not sure where you are actually from but is it normal in your home country for parents to work and pay taxes for a lifetime just so immigrants can come along and reap the benefits rather than their own native children? Why aren't your parents or your girlfriend's parents helping you?

You need to realize that not everyone can get what they want in life. Even Polish citizens face hard choices and are often forced to settle for less.

It's quite common for students in many countries to not get into the school of their dreams because their grades weren't competitive enough or they couldn't afford it. So such students end up going to a more affordable but less renowned school or they chose a different a career path instead.

I don't see why are you being so inflexible. If you and your girlfriend are genuinely in love then get married and go live with her in your home country. If you can't afford the tuition in Poland then you surely must be able to back home. And if you are smart and skilled there is no reason why you couldn't find work or start your own business in your home country too.