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Little statistics about immigrants in Poland. Employment and job prospects.


Monitor 14 | 1,821
15 Apr 2014 #1
There was interesting article in Wyborcza, presenting few statistics about number of immigrants to Poland

To hire a man beyond our eastern border, you have to run around the offices and combine . Illegal employment of a foreigner is punished harder than the Pole - For years, working in Poland and earn almost two times more than in your country - tells us Oleh from Ukraine.

Number of work permit given for foreigners per voivodeship in 2013. (Black number is number of illegal caught).

Number of work permits issued in 2013, divided per nationality.

Here surprisingly China is on 2nd place with 3089 people, while so little Chinese people seem to be writing on this forum. And there is only 1300 permits for Indians (5th place).

Article explains how employer can easily prove that there are no local candidates for the job in order to get work permit for a foreigner. There is example of employing Belarusan for the position of programmer. First the job of the programmer for 1800pln grsoss is advertised. Nobody applied, so foreigner can get work permit. He's employed for advertised 1800pln. The trick is that he signs extra Umowa od dzieƂo, where he gets the rest of salary. In that way foreigner earns effectively more than 1800, but the law is not broken.

Another important information mentioned there is that a Polish company, employing foreigner for over 3 months, doesn't need to prove that there are no local people wanting to do the job. It can be the case when Ukrainian or Belarusan works in Poland without permit (as they don't need it for work up to 6 months per year), but wants to work longer than 6 months.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
15 Apr 2014 #2
Thank you, Monitor, that's interesting.

So, it must be Vietnamese people I'm seeing so much more often these days, not Koreans. Certainly a huge increase in the visibility of this community since I arrived a few years ago. I know there's also a considerable Korean community because special church services have been provided for them in some areas, I'm told. It would be nice to see more positive interaction between the communities. When I have attempted to chat to them in English, most have been shy about communicating and that can come across as unfriendliness. Of course, it could be that I just look and sound repulsive.
geogie
16 Apr 2014 #3
I think what would really benefit Poland is a bigger number of immigrants. Unfortunately, Poland is one of the European countries with the smallest proportion of immigrants, along with Bulgaria, Romania and Albania. Whatever problems come with immigration, multiculturalism proves beneficial in many ways.
jon357 63 | 14,127
16 Apr 2014 #4
In Poland's heyday it was a complete melting-pot. One of the most diverse and multicultural places in Europe. The current homogeneity (which is changing fast) was a post-war thing caused by the horrors of WWII and the recriminations afterwards as well as the isolation that the Iron Curtain caused. Things are changing slowly, and PL is still a country of net immigration, but everything comes in cycles and gradually diversity is recovering.
cms 9 | 1,272
16 Apr 2014 #5
Not sure if that was a heyday - ethnic division was one of the factors that weakened interwar poland. Im not a right wing loony, just saying that the homogenous state set up in 1945 at least avoided the situations we have seen in yugoslavia and the fsu.
jon357 63 | 14,127
16 Apr 2014 #6
I was actually thinking of much earlier times - the Second Republic was about as far from a heyday as it gets; the hyperinflation, mass unemployment, rampant corruption and warlike (and politically extreme) neighbours on both sides made it a difficult place for anyone.

the homogenous state set up in 1945 at least avoided the situations we have seen in yugoslavia and the fsu.

That's very true. It's worth mentioning though that the tensions in Yugoslavia were mostly between villagers and people in small towns - in PL there's unlikely to be seething generational feuds over land use nor nowadays competition over trade. Hopefully, anyway.
legend 3 | 664
16 Apr 2014 #7
I think what would really benefit Poland is a bigger number of immigrants.

This is a joke right?
Bieganski 17 | 901
17 Apr 2014 #8
ethnic division was one of the factors that weakened interwar poland.

Yes indeed and we can see ethnic divisions being played out today right on Poland's doorstep as Ukraine is being physically carved up.

Whatever problems come with immigration, multiculturalism proves beneficial in many ways.

And yet heads of state across the EU have already declared multiculturalism in their own countries to be a complete failure. No surprise then that you didn't provide any proof to your claim that "multiculturalism proves beneficial."

Stable countries with much narrow levels of wealth inequality have in the main been those with largely homogenous or extensively integrated populations. Poland is one example of homogeneity with broadly less income inequality. Canada (home to generations of successful Poles and Polonia in their millions) is an example of a country with a much more diverse population but it too has less income inequality and has done quite well (even in the face of Quebec separatists) at keeping its peoples integrated with a shared identity.

Poland will do well by not copying the disastrous immigration policies of places like Britain (that "proud" multiculti-landscape where secession is now the word of the day everyday; income disparity is chasmic and rife; neighbors are lifelong strangers; and Poland is the destination of choice for its carpetbagging multiculti-advocates).

Poland will also do well by never becoming another "rainbow nation" like South Africa or Brazil both of which are bywords for shocking levels of corruption, violence and inequality pervading every level of their societies.
Lolek2
18 Apr 2014 #9
I think what would really benefit Poland is a bigger number of immigrants.

In what way?
rychlik 41 | 373
18 Apr 2014 #10
multiculturalism proves beneficial in many ways.

There are many drawbacks to "multiculturalism".
jon357 63 | 14,127
18 Apr 2014 #11
Pluses and minuses for everything everywhere. You can't turn the clock back though and the world is getting smaller. It's important to see the good things that change brings instead of festering away, sniping and grumbling about the loss of a past that never happened anyway.
Archyski - | 45
18 Apr 2014 #12
Since the economic situation in Poland is gettin' better, more immigrants will come. That's good.

The mission is only to include them into the society from the start, and not doing the same integration errors as other countries in the west.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
19 Apr 2014 #13
Since the economic situation in Poland is gettin' better, more immigrants will come. That's good.

Be wary of gauging an economic situation as "better" in a low interest rates environment. I see people who have borrowed to open a little shop. Unemployment is still high, contracts are still temporary for many financial sector workers, trade is very quiet for some professions.
dontgagmeyo
19 Apr 2014 #14
Since the economic situation in Poland is gettin' better, more immigrants will come. That's good.

Yes its good,cuz more people will learn to survive and discover more ways to make a decent living eg 12 mil illegals in usa do live and save money to send back to there respective countries and I bet same in the uk and germany,france,italy etc
Archyski - | 45
19 Apr 2014 #15
Be wary of gauging an economic situation as "better" in a low interest rates environment.

That's is not untrue, but there is still a lot more investments going on in Poland. €'s from EU and companies who are moving their production to Poland.

The question is only how the polish will take the muslim immigrants, and the fear of subculture formation.

The Zionist cause was also a resistance movement against being assimilated into Polish and other leading national cultures where they happened to be living.

That also sounds like the muslim radicals in Europe.
kondzior 9 | 951
20 Apr 2014 #16
There is no such thing as "racism", so it, or the lack of it, cannot be a part of Polish character. The whole concept was made up by some forgotten Jewish psychologist and has no bearing on reality whatsoever. This sh!t is as Orwellian as it gets. You people are trying to criminalize basic human nature, and you know this sh!t is insane when even sometimes even babies are deemed as "racist".
jon357 63 | 14,127
20 Apr 2014 #17
There is no such thing as "racism",

Most people would disagree with you there.

cannot be a part of Polish character.

Whoever said it was or wasn't?

That whole post, so many contradictions that it makes no sense strongly suggests a certain amount of Easter Day liquid celebration.
kondzior 9 | 951
20 Apr 2014 #18
Most people are morons? There is no such a thing in life as "racism". If you are talking about people being asholes to people of a different race, I would call that being an ahole. But if we are talking about people feeling more at ease with members of their own race, I would call that normal and healthy behavior. The entire concept of racism is inherently relativistic and highly subversive. It carries the implication that "race is a social construct" right in its very core. But race isn't a social construct. The races exist, they are all different from one another and guess what, everybody is happier when living among their own kind, because that is the natural thing to do. Multiculturalism is an evil, not a good. The kumbaya rhetoric is only a mean to push what is essentially a malevolent and degenerate ideal. It is do to violence on human normalcy for the sake of creating a false unity which exists well below where unity can actually be found and ends up resulting in a totalitarian uniformity that has to war constantly with human instincts and the human soul in general in order to maintain itself, a situation which is downright psychotic

Asian people do know the value of living among members of your own race. Even when living in foreing country.
jon357 63 | 14,127
21 Apr 2014 #19
everybody is happier when living among their own kind, because that is the natural thing to do. Multiculturalism is an evil, not a good.

Speak for yourself.

Here in Warsaw we have a healthy increase in immigration since Poland's temporary isolation of the PRL years ended and 'everybody' is neither happier nor less happy.
10iwonka10 - | 396
23 Apr 2014 #20
Immigration has lots positives if it under control and if people try to integrate. I suppose it is the same for newcomers from Ukraine in Poland like for Polish in UK. Second generation will turn to be native. No difference except surnames (sometimes) :-).
Szalawa 3 | 248
23 Apr 2014 #21
Less people means more resources to go around and that means easier job market and higher wages. Immigrants are not bad

Second generation will turn to be native

but I don't agree with integration and not all the immigrant will agree with it too, just keep that in mind.
DominicB - | 2,678
24 Apr 2014 #22
Less people means more resources.

Not quite. Fewer people means there are less resources to go around in the first place. Somebody has to harvest, mine or chop down all those resources to make them available. Somebody has to produce consumer goods, or provide services that can be traded for them. And it means that a lot of those higher wages are going to be spent supporting the elderly rather than being free for investment in the future. Demographic winter is going to be a real problem for European countries, including Poland. Especially Poland as Poland draws so few immigrants, and is not likely to become a major immigrant destination in the foreseeable future (rather than as a way station to the western European countries).

Immigration to Poland is currently not enough to offset emigration. The net migration rate to Poland has remained negative for the last fifteen years, and shows no sign of reversing. In ten years, the population of Poland is predicted to go into a steep decline that will last at least until the end of this century, by which time there will be only 16 million people left living in the country. That's less than half of what it is now. Rural depopulation is going to be a very serious problem, especially in Eastern Poland.

That's only taking quantity into account. The real big problem for Poland is going to continue to be brain drain. Unfortunately, there are no silver-lined clouds on the horizon with this problem, either.
Szalawa 3 | 248
24 Apr 2014 #23
Sorry, I am a biology student so I see things from a biological prospective. This is what I learned in university and to be frank the world is going to be way too overpopulated (places like India, Philippines and other third world countries with high birth rates contribute significantly to this)

Poland is predicted to go into a steep decline that will last at least until the end of this century

in the next century(If we manage not to collapse from lack of energy sources to provide for this population), a higher population also means more strain on resources and a smaller one means that less resources will be required. A smaller population is economically sustainable, a large rapid growing population isn't, low birth rates and low death rates are a usual sign that a country is developed (and are ideal conditions). Immigration inst bad, but keep in mind that 1) I live in Canada and I can tell you, not all immigrant's will assimilate(and they shouldn't be forced too either) 2)

and it means that a lot of those higher wages are going to be spent supporting the elderly rather than being free for investment in the future

what do you have in mind then, Infinite growth? unreasonable. I think old people deserve to be taking care of considering that they built the economy and supported people like you. In the future I wouldn't worry about too little people, I'd worry about the opposite 3) Less people is easier to manage to ensure maximum productivity. 4) again Immigrants are not bad, but from a biological prospective they will significantly alter the genetic material (especially long prolonged immigration) from the native area.

I can go on but honestly..no one will read it.

Demographic winter is going to be a real problem for European countries, including Poland

Keep in mind Global warming, the world is changing and not static as you may think
OP Monitor 14 | 1,821
24 Apr 2014 #24
@Szalwa: You're thinking long term and DominicB short term. Perhaps you're right, but when we talk about generations, but most of us is concerned about now and their lifespan and for that DominicB's arguments are valid.
Szalawa 3 | 248
24 Apr 2014 #25
most of us is concerned about now and their lifespan

Sorry I got through off by this

until the end of this century

and then thought long term, still even short term negative population growth has its positives too


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