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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2041
Polls are all subjective. While I would agree a majority of Polish citizens are happy with the gun laws as they are, and frankly I am too, the process is cumbersome and slow. One of the things I love about Poland is how the government uses technology and how document verification and other important process's can be carried out through your banking applications. This same process should be used in gun licensing. Uploading the appropriate documents with verifications should be easy to do. The problem is that the process takes far too long because it still relies on too many people to get through the process.

We all know how government works here. It takes forever to get anything done. As an example it has taken three months to get approval for a Fing sign on my building for one of my operations. Three months for a sign? Insane. Why? Because people like to FO and go on vacations, and work slowly, and generally not GAF about what other people are trying to do. Now, if that process would be updated, I think many people on both sides would be happier and this discussion would be not nearly as devisive.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2042
Polls are all subjective

As are all opinions.

What isn't subjective (and is very objective) is a lack of people being shot dead and Poland's low gun-crime stats.

This same process should be used in gun licensing.

The danger is that this could make the process quicker or easier.

More people support the law being tightened rather than relaxed.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2043
@jon357
Not most people because you dont have the opinions of all people. Many people yes, but you cannot say most. And for those who are capable the system should be quicker. So should the automobile licensing system and multiple other systems. This is not a matter of left or right wing politics, it is simply a matter of leaving the Fing dark ages in a lot of government offices. Fifty Fing stamps on a piece of paper to take the same piece of paper to another office to fill out another form to go back to the fist office for fifty more Fing stamps. Yet, you can file papers with the court electronically and verify with your banking app? Please. Give the politics a rest and just streamline the system for guns and many other things.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2044
Not most people because you dont have the opinions of all people.

I do however share the opinion of most people in Europe on guns.

but you cannot say most

You can. On the basis of all evidence.

should be quicker

providing it doesn't make it easier, the speed isn't a problem. Nevertheless, psychiatric evaluations do take time, as well as inspections of firearms safes and managing quotas of ammunition.

As public opinion clearly shows, there is no real support for increased gun ownership in Poland. The majority oppose it.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2045
@jon357
Your opinion is not a majority. You can only know the level of support by taking a real vote. Otherwise, a poll taken with a majority of people in Warsaw is going to be very different from one in Zakopane. I am not advocating for easier, it is not that difficult to jump through the hoops. Streamling the process though is only the right thing to do if you are making the process difficult to get through to begin with. No one should be delayed for months for anything especially considering Polands use of technology. This is not an opinion matter on gun ownership or not, simply a matter of modernizing the process. Prescription medcation is completely modernized here but so much other very important items are not.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2046
Your opinion is not a majority.

It is however part of the overwhelming majority.

majority of people in Warsaw is going to be very different from one in Zakopane

Population of Warsaw = 3,500,000. Population of Zakopane = 27,266

It's hard to know how technology could (or should) make psychiatric evaluations, criminal records/arrests checks in every country the person has lived in, home visits and installation of built-in firearms safes quicker.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2047
@jon357
I am not saying that psych evaluations should be done on line. But the documents should be uploaded and verified on line, like uploading documents to KRS and then verifying them. Records checks are easy, the government does them on every temporary or permanent resident, they are mandatory and it only takes a few days. Home visits and safe verification should be in person, but it shouldnt take six months or more. That is simply people being lazy.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2048
I am not saying that psych evaluations should be done on line.

Good.

But the documents should be uploaded and verified on line

As long as it doesn't make the process easier or quicker.

but it shouldnt take six months or more

That's Polish bureaucracy; it can be slow. If any aspect of bureaucracy is streamlined however, this is among the least important or desired, especially given the majority opinion that the status quo is either adequate or should be tightened.

The overwhelming majority of people in Poland do not support a 'right' to own firearms.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2049
@jon357
No one has a right to own a firearm. I am not proposing this. People should have the option of going through a reasonable process if they want one. Right now, the process is not reasonable in the amount of time it takes. Imagine someone losing their life because of a former spouse killing them in their home while they were in their fifth month of waiting for a home visit. That is entirely possible. Lets not be living in la la land either. Plenty of shootings these days in Poland, plenty of guns available if you want one. Multiple shootings in Krakow in the last few weeks. Three of them connected to people who were former military. The laws are not perfect, and need to be updated to meet todays changing world. What happens if things with Russia get serious for Poland? Think there will be all the red tape when it comes to arming citizens for defense? Not a chance. I hope it doesnt happen, but if it does, you will wish you or your neighbors could protect themselves.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2050
I am not proposing this.

Good, although the thread's in fact about that.

Right now, the process is reasonable and the overwhelming majority of people do not support relaxing that.

someone losing their life because of a former spouse killing them in their home

That is no reason to own a firearm. The police exist in Poland. Civilians may hold firearms for various reasons like target practice, sport, hunting. Self-defence by private individuals is not a reason.

If an angry ex-spouse came a knockin', how would you get the gun out of its locked gun safe, get the ammunition out of its separate locked ammunition safe and then load the gun in time for it to be useful?

Plenty of shootings these days in Poland

Actually very few. You make Krakow (with its low crime rates) sound like Gotham City.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2051
@jon357
You really need to get a grip on yourself. The process is reasonable, the time in which it takes to complete it, is not.

If you are well versed with your weapon, going to the process to defend yourself with it and an intruder, you will not have a problem. Fingerprint safes make it not only safer, but faster if needed. Takes less than 30 seconds, and that is plenty of time.

Do you even live in Poland? One such shooting took place in a pub less than two blocks off rynek less than 4 blocks from the police department. Krakow in general is very low crime, but in the last five years, there has been a lot more than before. Notice I only speak about where I live, not about what I think people in other places should do or what some people claim a majority wants. Majority can only be determined by an actual vote. Like PiS got a majority, just barely, but that doesn't mean the oppositions voice or opinions do not matter.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2052
to defend yourself with it and an intruder,

And this is the nub.

In Poland there are various reasons for firearms. 'Defending yourself' is not asking them

Fingerprint safes make it not only safer, but faster if needed

Do not meet the requirements either for a gun safe or a separate ammunition safe

Do you even live in Poland?

Yes, for several decades, and like everybody else, appreciate the strong gun control and very very low gun crime in Poland and most of Europe.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2053
@jon357
Realy? Self defense is specifically one of the cited reasons for gun ownership. Looks like you need to get familiar with the laws. Fingerprint safes do not meet what requirement? I was just in a gun shop in Krakow where they are the best sellers. Again looks like you need to get a better understanding of the law. Everybody else? You have notes from the rest of Polands populace? WTF are you smoking?
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2054
specifically one of the cited reasons for gun ownership

In Poland?

Who do you pretend is 'citing' this since the overwhelming majority support either the status quo or tightening the law?

Everybody else? You have notes from the rest of Polands populace?

The Polish government do, and the results of their enquiries are above. Fewer than 1 in 5 favour a weakening of the law.

WTF are you smoking?

Better quality stuff than you can afford, given that you think people in Poland want guns to 'defend themselves' with firearms against 'former spouses'...
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2055
@jon357
You are delusional. You cant even comprehend context of writing. Indeed, this is why the left has such a hard time convincing people they should lead.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2056
@PolAmKrakow
I think we can safely say that you tried to start an argument and roundly lost it.

It's still both funny and sad to see that you think the already adequate procedures should be changed because you think people in Poland might need to 'defend themselves' with firearms against 'former spouses'...

In the real world, Poland has very low crime rates and where guns exist, they are for sport rather than self-defence. Nobody wants the situation regarding firearms in Poland to be even a tenth as bad as that in America.
johnny reb
29 Mar 2023 #2057
@PolAm
Excellent post

You cant even comprehend context of writing.

Because he wants to control the narrative to coincide with his personal views.
He doesn't want other people be allowed to express their views because the people of Poland may be swayed with the facts.

you think people in Poland might need to 'defend themselves' with firearms against 'former spouses'...

No, we know that the enemy collects our guns first and then collects our wedding rings next without a fight.
Have you learned nothing from history joun ?
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2058
@jon357
Hey dummy, point out one time when I said laws should be changed. I said only that procedures should be modernized and streamlined. Your mental midget assesment is really mindblowing. In the real world Poland is next to a war zone. Pull your head out of your a$$ or what ever LGBTQ XYZ thing you are with and look at what is happening. You fvcking idiot peace love and happiness left wing drum bangers are not in touch with reality. No wonder everyone else on this board gives you so much $hit.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2059
As mentioned ad infinitum, there is no desire to weaken firearms regulations in Poland. Crime rates are low and people like it that way.

@PolAmKrakow
"Hey dummy, point out one time" when you couldn't even tell the difference between your phrase "laws should be changed" and my phrase "procedures should be changed".

One reason people in Poland are either happy with the present situation regarding firearms or want it to be made even tighter is to stop the sort of people who make out-of-control rants like the one above getting near firearms.

Next, you'll be suggesting we allow firearms to be held or used by convicted felons.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2060
@jon357
You are simply stupid. You dont address my questions yet seek to delfect. Go grab an rainbow flag and start marching on your own. You do not speak for Poland. There is no voting and clearly defined majority, only a poll which means nothing. Believe polls? Hilary was going to win and PiS will win the next election. How accurate are polls? Not very.
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2061
You dont address my questions

Or don't agree with your (minority) point of view.

There are reasons we have very tight firearms laws. Hopefully they will become tighter yet, People in Europe generally do not like guns.

Or out-of-control or generally intemperate people or for that matter, felons, getting anywhere near them.
PolAmKrakow
29 Mar 2023 #2062
And when an Orc comes to your neighborhood, you will offer him what? Your a$$, your wife, your daughter, or will you be crying tears of joy that your neighbor offered him a bullet to the head?
johnny reb
29 Mar 2023 #2063
People in Europe generally do not like guns.

Is that why there has been an increase of personal firearm ownership in Poland ?
jon357
29 Mar 2023 #2064
And when an Orc comes to your neighbourhood

Should the Orcs invade any NATO state, radiation would be a bigger worry than actual Orcs.

I doubt a pistol would do much good.
PolAmKrakow
30 Mar 2023 #2065
@jon357
And that jon is your mistaken thinking on display. Putin is not going to nuke territory he wants back within the fold. That would make the territory and people in it useless. If he wanted to nuke anyone, Kiev would already be a wasteland. Would he nuke London? Maybe, but not European lands he covets.

Most gun ownership comes in the form of long guns, not just in the US, but in Europe, Poland specifically. A pistol will only be good in small areas. Rifles now, you can pick off an Orc from quite a good distance if you are training and practicing. I would not argue for handgun proliferation.
jon357
30 Mar 2023 #2066
@PolAmKrakow
You are absolutely paranoid.

To repeat, there are several reasons that people have firearms in Poland. Mostly involving sport. Regarding Vladimir Putin "picking off" orcs is not among them.

Poland's existing culture of safety is sufficient and has overwhelming majority support. In Europe, we do not want to have American culture or values.
johnny reb
30 Mar 2023 #2067
I thought you said that you have a gun for self protection joun.
jon357
30 Mar 2023 #2068
In Poland?

No, people do not have firearms for 'protection' in PL. It is a very safe country.
johnny reb
30 Mar 2023 #2069
In Poland?

My question was, do you have a gun for self protection ?
jon357
30 Mar 2023 #2070
I just answered that. No. In Poland people do not have firearms for 'self-protection'. That is not a valid reason to have one in Poland and I would not want one, as most people would not.

In a previous job several years ago (a long way from Poland) I was offered one and had access to them however that was a very different situation in one of the world's least developed countries. Right now, I work in a conflict zone which you would not be allowed to travel to; the military here are however professionals and should there be any issue here, there's little sense for a civilian to get into a shootout against a foreign army.

As mentioneed, there are no reasons in Poland that a civillian would need firearms for self-defence and the public overwhelmingly oppose a weakening of the current situation.


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