...Jamaican Creole, which is no more 'broken English' than Polish is 'broken Russian'.
...I know you're a linguist and that this example was just an analogy but I think it would've been better if you said "Russian is an uneducated version of Polish". Ok, I'm slightly biased. ;)
Someone once remarked that Dutch sounded like German damaged on delivery.
Exiled, apropos your comments, when I started learning Russian vocabulary, I was continually stymied in my efforts to get a grasp on the language because of sooooo many Polish false friends, 'tchjas' (hour) vs. 'czas' (time), 'pismo' etc.....
I'm tired of cultural relativism which states that standards don't matter. Standards do indeed matter, not only in language, but in every facet of our lives, from medicine, to teaching to engineeing, you name it.
I actually agree, I just that standards need to have some real organic local connection.
And Jamaican (or any creole) is more than slang or degraded. It just has different rules about verb agreement, tense and aspect. There's nothing to prevent people from using Jamaican grammar and speaking insightfully about politics or science except for bureaucratic tradition and pure prejudice.
Where you get the broken Engish is in ex-colonial societies with local languages that haven't been supplanted by English but where English is used in some public functions. That kind of English, spoken as an imperfectly acquired second language and only used at work or school can be pretty disheartening for native speakers. There are some very fluent speakers of English in those places, but it's not the norm.
Basically, in lots of socieites (most ex-colonies and some others) language policy is carefully chosen to minimize the possibility of social mobility.
Mafketis, your point is a well-considered one. However, whilst one might argue that language 'policing' does squelch the prospects of social mobility, this begs the question as to whether those who which to become more socially mobile actually will fit in on a higher level within that society or will they remain forever rubes, plebians among those who have truly worked themselves up to an educated status by dint of both their own talent as well as their diligence?
In London, I once saw an outdoor shop sign (which I posted over a year ago on this forum) that read BROKEN ENGLISH SPOKEN PERFECTLY! I guess if Jamaican patois is deemed a legitimate dialect of English, who am I to complain.
It's merely frustrating to be taught that there are rules and then to find noone follows them, that finally it's all a question of affirmative action or social politics.
Don't blame linguists who perceive the value of creole languages, blame people like David Crystal and the "World Englishes" approach which I despise it for many reasons.
But then I'm actually against international use of English and the idea that everybody needs to learn it (which guarantees degraded standards). I'd much rather fewer people tried to learn it but those who did really respected it as a language and not a fashion accesory or job requirement.
Europe is actually almost entirely free of dystunctional language policies, which is one reason that there's more social mobility and generally high standards of living. The places that cling to colonial languages are the ones mired in perpetual poverty, not matter how many quaintly picturesque literary prizes a few authors manage to win.
Lastly, finding out that native speakers of a language you're learning speak differently (often radically so) than the contents of the courses or textbooks you've had is the normal state of affairs.
By the latter definition, there should be 'Jamaican For Foreigners', 'Brooklynese For Beginners' etc..., much as the German course I saw advertised recently online 'Bavarian For Foreigners'. Then again, the latter was clearly a joke (as evidenced by its disclaimer!). The former examples aren't, and should therefore be offered seriously. Perhaps they already are. LOL
There's a youtube button to the left of "attach a file"
Duh, what was I thinking... lol thanks. By the way, your video is hilarious.
Disregard the weird headline - the video is not anti-semitic at all. youtu.be/TmKy_W1Mtw0
"Deutlish" youtu.be/kf891kuuf54
Since this is a "hardest language" thread - I use this video (and a few others) to practice Mandarin. Not sure if it's the hardest language but the pronunciation is tough for us, westerners.
youtu.be/jEHVLuhQ9aU
...and here's yet another hard "language" to learn... ;) youtu.be/2lLW5rtBEbw
Most Germans do in fact speak fluent English successfully; it's comprehensible only to themselves. LOL
Tommy: Why you have been coming late now? Annika: I am since morning standing on a snake, what means. Tommy: Oh, stay away please, the Lord will through. (translation) Tommy: Why are you so late? Annika: I've been on line since early this morning, what are you talking about.
Tommy: Stand aside a second, will you? The gentleman's trying to pass.
.......with varying degrees of success, you might add. The upper echelon of Poland I've encountered have typically studied a number of languages, among them French, German and English, the latter of which they often speak less fluently than the first two, (don't forget Poland's almost incestuous relationship with French culture for the past centuries as well their proximity to Germany). English remains curiously distant to most Poles and those who DO speak it at a near native-speaker level usually have exaggerated British accents, the English cadences without the English off-handedness or understated sense of humor.
When in Poland my Polish was frequently corrected, which I openly appreciated. When I though attempted to correct their English, I was rebuffed,
Not entirely true - quite a significant amount of them speak German fluently and not English. I know several Sales Managers/directors who have excellent German but are terrible in English, just because German was much more widely understood than English in this part of the world. There's also much more dominance from German-speaking companies than English-speaking companies in Poland.
Let's also not forget that the second language of Poland is German.
English remains curiously distant to most Poles and those who DO speak it at a near native-speaker level usually have exaggerated British accents, the English cadences without the English off-handedness or understated sense of humor.
I've had a personal run-in with someone who is exactly as you describe. He's written a language textbook for a chain of schools, and the textbook is quite frankly garbage - as witnesed by his proud boast that "I've never lived in an English speaking country and I'm self taught" - unsurprisingly, his accent is hilariously fake and his knowledge and understanding of English nuances is nil. Yet he thinks himself to be proficient in English and boasts about his ability to write a textbook - for some reason, he didn't take it too kindly when difficult questions were asked about the content ;)
I think it's really cool, to be fair we don't really have that many things to be proud of, and our language is one of the things about poland i love... No english song could ever be as powerfull and meaningful as a polish one.
A Real reform of this language must be done fast, or soon there will be no more foreign investments because of the impossible language...
But language is also good shield against globalisation. There is no practical possibility to make call centers/help desks/supports for Polish customers abroad :-)
Here's a disadvantage of English (or a version of it ;) being "widely spoken" in several low cost countries...
- Sound only youtube.com/watch?v=Y6C8Z9aBa2Y
In case the lingo gets confusing - pilots call "crew schedulers" to rearrange their schedules, drop or pick up trips, rearrange vacations, etc, etc...
- alpa is a pilot union - "widebody" - is a large aircraft - not a person LOL - "min coverage" - not enough pilots 'standing by' for someone to ask for a day off - "oops" - "out of position" or no-show for work
But language is also good shield against globalisation. There is no practical possibility to make call centers/help desks/supports for Polish customers abroad :-)
Well if you want to learn a language you got to work as hard as HELL!!! because Polish is not russian or english or (espanol) my favorite one qu pasa!!
Excuse me, Scorpion, but you've got to work as hard as HELL in English too! Polish, Russian and German, among others, merely have a public relations spin going against them that they are 'difficult' languages to master. Well so is English, take our spelling/pronunciation and intricate vocabulary. Sure, if you want to sound like a Neanderthal man, use the bare minimum of English and then I'll grant you, English is practically a breeze. Speak it on the envied level of casual, yet elegant, and sound like a educated someone, that can take one's entire life, as long as to become fluent (and educated-sounding!) in Polish, Russian or German. LOL
jyzko, you are polish native, you already speak polish, so you have no idea how illogical and insane it looks for any foreigner to have hundreds of different numeral forms, and cases and words that change form declined by case, by gender by number in such crazy ways...
make a tabel of declination of all cases, genders, and numbers for
two happy girls in english... and you will write 100 times two happy girls
and in polish, you will have hundreds of forms that you have to remember...
that is so insane and stupid and worthless,... to fill your mind with hundreds of declinations and forms... when anybody would understand "two happy girls"
Home / Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D
